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Leviathank

You US guys really have to see that !

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~Seal~    143

I don't care that I've cried over ygo before but it really irritates me when someone lies and makes irrational arguments about me, especially because he knows nothing about me.

I agree with you about the stakes with poker vs ygo but the same concept apply concerning large scale tournaments with both ygo and poker. On both sides you play people that you have never met or played against before so you have to start fresh citing tells and picking up on playstyles. While the ramifications of bad beats are probably worse in ygo the odds are that they will suck out on you are way better than poker, yet in ygo there are more instances where you can force them into drawing out of situations than poker. While there is skill involved with forcing them into those situations there is also incredible amounts of luck involved as well. It depends on matchups, card choices, opening hands, the order that you've drawn the cards. You have to factor all of that in before you implement skill.

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»Nut    671

i think there are sooo many different angles you have to consider you really can't/shouldn't compare both games.

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G Λ r Ω N    5934
I don't care that I've cried over ygo before but it really irritates me when someone lies and makes irrational arguments about me, especially because he knows nothing about me.

Now I'm lying? Yeah, a bitch would say that.

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Egnever    358
i disagree with pretty much everything you said in this post. here's the biggest bone i hav eto pick:

you're looking at poker and YGO the wrong way here. you're looking at each game and it's fundamental gameplay flaws rather than looking at what really matters: how these flaws come into play in competitive play, and their ramifications.

it's true that in poker you can lose to a one-outer on the river. they can get that card even when you're favored 95%. the same thing can happen in YGO. it's happened to me more times than i can count at SJCs.

BUT, in YGO, it's far more costly than in poker. because when that happens in poker, you lose the hand. you play hundreds, thousands of hands in a poker tournament. in YGO, you lose the match. you play 9. if you lose more than 1, you leave empty-handed.

they're two completely different animals. the only point you can make is that you can get unlucky and lose in both games even if you're a better player.

from a competitive standpoint...the ramifications of a bad beat are MUCH worse in YGO than they are in poker.

PS: i got mad love for both mcneely (<3) and garon (cool ass dude), but seriously why are you guys tripping? also, i've cried over YGO for wayyy less stakes than $5k, you don't see me giving a shit.

And if you're all in on a hand where you have a 95% chance to win (a 'great' time to go all in), and you lose that hand, you're suddenly out of the tournament. It doesn't matter if you've played well the hundreds of hands before that in the tournament; all it takes is one bad beat and your chances of winning go down the toilet. I don't see that happening too much with YGO. A single isolated bad hand is usually not going to immediately cost you the tournament.

The bottom line is that both games have a significant luck component to them. They're card games, after all, and there is uncertainty. However, to claim that there isn't skill because of luck involved is a misnomer. The best poker players make it to maybe 10-15% of the final tables of the tournament. The best YGO players can probably top 30-40% of the SJCs they attend. In terms of randomness, there is more of it in poker, but you don't generally see people bitch that poker can't keep its top pro's from leaving.

Why not? Obviously not because the game is "too random" or "too luck-based," because Poker is every bit as much luck-based as YGO and it has no problem hanging on to its top professional players. It's obviously because you can make a good living playing Poker but you can't playing YGO.

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»PJ    4183

We all know there's only 1 cheat in France atm..

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Gehring makes the best point here regarding cheating.

YOU have the final cut/shuffle on their deck. It'll be YOUR 'fault' if they get ridic good hands. It doesn't mean they cheat, it means they got luckier.

I think people who blame their loss on stackers are pathetic. Get over it that you can't win your luck based card game. Skill can only take you so far, ie, poker.

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Greed`    88
Gehring makes the best point here regarding cheating.

YOU have the final cut/shuffle on their deck. It'll be YOUR 'fault' if they get ridic good hands. It doesn't mean they cheat, it means they got luckier.

I think people who blame their loss on stackers are pathetic. Get over it that you can't win your luck based card game. Skill can only take you so far, ie, poker.

the best cheaters dont stack their deck, they stack their opponents deck. but I agree with most of your post.

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Gehring makes the best point here regarding cheating.

YOU have the final cut/shuffle on their deck. It'll be YOUR 'fault' if they get ridic good hands. It doesn't mean they cheat, it means they got luckier.

I think people who blame their loss on stackers are pathetic. Get over it that you can't win your luck based card game. Skill can only take you so far, ie, poker.

the best cheaters dont stack their deck, they stack their opponents deck. but I agree with most of your post.

This annoys me just as much. My opponent opens with 2 wulf, 2 necro, 2 beckoning. Obviously I stacked their deck, without looking at their cards. If I did, call a judge over and warn me. I'm not gonna risk looking again.

Job done.

Stop playing the ultimate all-or-nothing shit heap Lightsworn and you'll suddenly find your opponent 'stacks your deck' a lot less often.

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»PJ    4183

It won't, because FIFA and UEFA got what they wanted: big team in the world cup and lots of TV revenue.

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»Nut    671
And if you're all in on a hand where you have a 95% chance to win (a 'great' time to go all in), and you lose that hand, you're suddenly out of the tournament.

i'm not going to continue to debate about it because i can see you're going to use circumstantial game situations to make your point...but i will say that getting into that situation takes alot of build-up (or break-down, rather) and it's alot less common than getting sacked in YGO.

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Alan Corn    28

in poker, you can simply choose not to go all in. whereas in yugioh if you get fucking sacked, tough shit.

point being, in poker your decision at least somewhat affects the outcome. in yugioh sometimes you are destined to lose from the opening hands no matter what decisions you make.

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»PJ    4183

YGO isn't designed to be a 'professionally' competitive entity, you guys need to remember that.

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G Λ r Ω N    5934
YGO isn't designed to be a 'professionally' competitive entity, you guys need to remember that.

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Egnever    358
And if you're all in on a hand where you have a 95% chance to win (a 'great' time to go all in), and you lose that hand, you're suddenly out of the tournament.

i'm not going to continue to debate about it because i can see you're going to use circumstantial game situations to make your point...but i will say that getting into that situation takes alot of build-up (or break-down, rather) and it's alot less common than getting sacked in YGO.

It's called using an example to demonstrate a point. We could start comparing permutations if you want, but I doubt either you or I have the patience or desire to statistically break down all the likelihoods and eventualities. I will say, straight up, that there is a reason why top YGO players top/final table much more than top Poker players. It's because, over the course of a tournament, your odds of getting screwed over or crippled because of a bad beat is very high and approaches 100%. In YGO, you can lose a match or two and still get to the top 16 where it becomes anyone's ball game.

You consistently miss the point: there is a significant 'non-skill' element in both games. It's not a perfect analog, but trying to nitpick at these imperfections is missing the larger picture. There's a reason why Poker can sustain itself and keep its top players; because it pays out millions of dollars. If each SJC champion won a million bucks, you damn well better believe that YGO wouldn't have much trouble 'keeping' its top players.

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»Nut    671

your example was unstable from the get-go because you're forgetting several major factors.

first of all, look at the size of the events. a major YGO event would be nationals or an SJC. lets say 450 people, that sounds fair. a major poker event can have THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of players. sure the tournament will eventually break itself down....but it's much harder to finish in the top 20 players in a 5000 person tournament than a 450 person tournament, especially considering how hard it is to last that long in a poker tournament (several day event) compared to a ygo event (one day).

this is why you see the very best players have few or even no top 10 finishes in the main events (because its just so hard to get through that field consistently) while they have tons of bracelets in smaller, side events.

in YGO, you can lose a match and still get into the tournament, sure. but in poker, you can lose TONS of hands, TONS of hands, and still make it to the tournament. losing a hand in poker doesn't even compare to losing a match in YGO.

i'm not missing any point; your point sucks/is wrong. your scenario doesn't make sense because you're trying to compare an event where you will draw about 9 games (YGO) and losing one of them can kill any shot you have at winning the tournament to a game where you will draw thousands of hands and you can lose plenty of them and still win the tournament. there IS no comparison, there IS no point. you simply cannot compare an individual hand of poker to a game of YGO. the game of YGO is far bigger. you can fold the hand in poker. you can always get away with your remaining chips. there are very few situations where you will play through a hand without making any mistakes/errors and still lose. it happens, but it's so rare. it's so COMMON in YGO for that.

YES, there is a significant luck factor in both games. but the similarities between that in YGO and in poker are so...different, your statement doesn't even matter.

it's not JUST about the luck factor. i've admitted that you can lose in poker and ygo in eerily similar ways (guy needs a jack on the river and gets it, guy needs a chaos sorcerer and gets it), but what you're missing is main point: the ramifications of such an unlucky break in YGO are far more dire than that of poker.

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Egnever    358

This isn't that hard. If you would stop straw manning my argument, maybe you can actually see that all you've done is argue in circles. I really wonder if you play Poker at all. Have you been to Vegas? Do you frequent there to play Poker? Have you ever seen a 'professional' poker tournament?

Poker tournaments have thousands and thousands of participants? Maybe the World Series Main Event. But that's not your average poker tournament. Most poker tournaments don't have thousands and thousands of participants. Don't believe me? Check for yourself... (http://www.wsop.com/tourney/tourneydetails.asp?groupID=607) And guess what? The best players frequently miss out on the top tables even there, at no less of a rate than SJC tops. Why do you think that is?

You play thousands and thousands of hands? Big fucking deal. You don't play hands in poker. You play the pot. I couldn't care less if I lose 99% of the hands I'm dealt, as long as the 1% of hands I win is enough for me to bankrupt everyone else. The problem is, in order to win the pot, you have to go in to big pots and subject yourself to the possibility of bad draws each time. A true 100% 'safe play' is almost nonexistent in Poker while it is in YGO. Each individual hand has the potential to either boot you out of the tournament altogether or cripple you so that you're soon out the door. How is that any different than getting a bad draw and losing a match that puts you out of the top 16? Your opponent catches a 5% Jack on a hand where you went all-in? Tough shit.

I really have to wonder if you played Poker at any kind of serious level if you don't think that getting an "unlucky break" is more dire in YGO than in Poker.

Let's review your misconceptions, shall we?

while they have tons of bracelets in smaller, side events.

They don't. In fact, most of the top players also get booted out of the vast majority of the 'smaller, side events' that they enter. That explains why even the best players tend to have 10 or fewer bracelets despite years and years of play (far more years that YGO has even been around).

in YGO, you can lose a match and still get into the tournament, sure. but in poker, you can lose TONS of hands, TONS of hands, and still make it to the tournament. losing a hand in poker doesn't even compare to losing a match in YGO.

Because you're trying to make a direct comparison from YGO hand to Poker hand.

You do realize that in attempting to compare the 'randomness' of a Poker tournament to the randomness of a YGO tournament, it does not mean I'm saying a YGO hand = Poker hand, right?

That's a purely aesthetical approach that you argued in a straw man attempt of trying to make my argument look bad. Unfortunately, I'm someone who will call you out on this kind of argument every single time.

You can't just make a completely arbitrary comparison of a YGO hand and a Poker hand and then claim that, because there are differences, a comparison of the level of randomness is invalid. That's a crap argument.

In reality, every poker player will tell you that they play the pot more than they play the hand. Implied and pot odds are far more important than the individual cards in the hand. You can lose a ton of hands, but you CAN'T lose a ton of big pots, or you're out of the tournament. And each individual pot, even if you take a statistically superior approach to each one, still has a significant "luck" factor to it, just as much of a luck factor as drawing a YGO hand, and you can number crunch to support this.

I could just as easily make the claim that since YGO doesn't have a situation where you can lose the ENTIRE TOURNAMENT on one bad card, that Poker is far more random and luck based, but that would be a similarly invalid argument.

your scenario doesn't make sense because you're trying to compare an event where you will draw about 9 games (YGO) and losing one of them can kill any shot you have at winning the tournament to a game where you will draw thousands of hands and you can lose plenty of them and still win the tournament. there IS no comparison, there IS no point. you simply cannot compare an individual hand of poker to a game of YGO.

I'm not comparing an individual hand of poker to an individual hand of YGO.

You are.

I'm saying that Poker is a similar game to YGO in the sense that it's a skill-based game that, at times, is dominated by luck. Like YGO, Poker is a game where even the best players, with a significant skill advantage, often get bounced well before the final table. And that is no coincidence.

the game of YGO is far bigger. you can fold the hand in poker. you can always get away with your remaining chips. there are very few situations where you will play through a hand without making any mistakes/errors and still lose. it happens, but it's so rare. it's so COMMON in YGO for that.

You can get away with your remaining chips and get bullied by a bigger stack for the rest of the time you're at the table.

How is that any different than trying to play out of a bad hand? You get put into a disadvantaged table position if you keep folding and saving your remaining chips. You see it every table; a conservative player gets bullied because he got a string of bad hands. Most of the time, their time in the tournament comes to an end shortly thereafter. Sounds a lot like playing conservative because you have a bad hand then getting forced into a card disadvantage and losing a duel to me...

YES, there is a significant luck factor in both games. but the similarities between that in YGO and in poker are so...different, your statement doesn't even matter.

(guy needs a jack on the river and gets it, guy needs a chaos sorcerer and gets it)

Once again, you're making apples to oranges comparisons. If you're all-in and a guy gets a jack on the river, you don't get to see another pot. If a guy needs a chaos sorcerer and gets it, that's still only 1 game in a best of 3.

By your logic, this would mean that Poker is a more random game than YGO. I'm not going to use your logic because, frankly, it sucks.

Let me make this perfectly clear to you, I don't really give a shit which game is more random, and it's completely irrelevant to my argument. I know both of them can be extremely random because I play both of them. I'm saying that, definitively, people continue to play Poker despite the randomness while people quit YGO because of the randomness precisely because Poker pays well. You ask any pro and they'll give you a laundry list of horror stories where one pot doomed them even because they "got sacked."

As I said, if SJCs paid a million bucks to the winner, you would see top players stick around for YGO regardless of how luck-based it is.

What you don't seem to understand is that, regardless of how/how many hands you play or don't play, you need to get into and win big pots in order to win tournaments. And, in the course of a poker tournament, there is only a small number of 'big pots' that you actually enter, and each one contains an element of luck, no different than a hand of YGO. So if your argument is that each YGO hand is 'more important' than Poker, sure, but that was never my argument in the first place. If your argument is that since each individual YGO hand is more important than each Poker hand, therefore YGO is a "more random" game... that's bullshit.

Why is it bullshit? Because a YGO hand is not analogous to a Poker hand. If anything, a given YGO hand is more analogous to the big pots that you have to enter and win in order to win/advance deep into a tournament. And for each given big pot, there is a significant probability that luck isn't on your side and you lose, even if you made the right play. In Poker, you can pick and choose which hands you enter into the big pots on most of the time, but in YGO, you already have your own selection process in place: deck building.

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BlitZ    0

This thread is just full of nonsense, 1st, It doesn't matter what nationality you are to be good at YGO, while the difference in skill level and meta in your country will affect your own playing skills, in the end, we play the same format, with the same resources, the only thing that sets people apart, is knowledge of the game, luck and skill. And then to the people who say that skill is irrelevant to YGO, how can you say that when people do consistently well at major tournaments? Their luck must be amazing right? And if you say they cheat, that must mean there's a lot of cheaters doing a lot of cheating, even at worlds, so I would say you're wrong, skill is a necessary trait to be "pro" at YGO. /rant

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»Nut    671

i'm not reading that entire post. there is no way you can justify comparing two completely different games with absolutely NO similarities besides the fact that both games have a certain amount of luck involved. you might as well compare YGO to monopoly or yahtzee or something. it just doesn't make sense.

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