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gamemaster

Let's talk about the End Phase folks

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gamemaster    250

A little background first. I and a teammate of mine decided to play my build of "Dragon Exodia" (i.e. Exodia+Super Rejuvenation) at the 75th Shonen Jump Championship in Edison, New Jersey. Unlike most that I've seen, this build did not suck. This is attested to by the fact that both my teammate and I held 9-2 records and were on the bubble for top 32 as of round 12. We both lost; more on that in a moment.

Here's the meat and potatoes. Clearly as far as Super Rejuvenation goes, the rulings that matter are those that regard the nature of the end phase discard.

This thread contains a good discussion on this as well as some very good answers and reasoning for those answers on the subject.

With the understanding about the end phase I gathered from the discussion in this thread, I built the above mentioned deck. Before the tournament began, I sought a mite bit of face time with the Head Judge of the event, Jerome Mchale, to discuss the end phase as I'd figured explaining this to most opponent's would be incredibly difficult.

In a nutshell, Jerome told me that:

1. The end phase discard is the last thing that happens during a players turn.

2. A player cannot "voluntarily" activate an effect after they've discarded during the end phase

Then, we spoke about cards that are mandatory that trigger upon being discarded. Jerome added to this list:

3. The only effects that a player can activate are mandatory trigger effects. Non-mandatory effects cannot be chained to these effects [Jerome mentions that one cannot chain Super Rejuvenation to White Stone of Legend's effect if it were discarded in the end phase]

Of course this brings up my question, "What if my opponent wants to negate said mandatory trigger?" Jerome adds:

4. Cards that negate are capable of negating these effects are also capable of being triggered, whether the negation effect be mandatory or not.

I bring up, White Stone of Legend vs. Drastic Drop Off. I discard, search BEWD, why can't the opponent Drastic Drop Off; it's neither mandatory nor does it negate. Jerome adds (while mentioning "Counter Traps are special"; "wtf does that even mean?", I really wish I'd asked"):

5. Spell speed 3 effects, Counter Traps are also permissible here, [apparently] whether or not they negate.

We don't go further as I can continue to come up with scenarios the above rules don't encompass. Jerome actually tells me that (in so many words), this issue would not exist if one did not try to create decks based around abusing game mechanics. Obviously, this is ridiculous logic and eventually I am able to get Jerome to capitulate and admit he made the rulings based upon the facts that there are not much in the way of written documentation on the end phase and it would be more convenient (and I suppose practical) to martyr a few players so as to not deal with ruling on these game mechanics on the spot.

Now, as I am later told, the HJ's word is essentially law. If rulings do not exist on a subject and an SJC HJ hands down a decision, it tends to become the ruling in the interim until something official is passed down (we've seen this happen before). This is one of the reasons Jerome choose to rule the way he did; if the proper ruling or determination were complex (which it likely would be) he would be forced to deal with the implications of what he had said, even perhaps having to write documentation on the subject. But, as it is we are left with the determinations of the end phase mechanic he has given us.

1. The end phase discard is the last thing that happens during a players turn.

2. A player cannot "voluntarily" activate an effect after they've discarded during the end phase

3. The only effects that a player can activate are mandatory trigger effects. Non-mandatory effects cannot be chained to these effects [Jerome mentions that one cannot chain Super Rejuvenation to White Stone of Legend's effect if it were discarded in the end phase]

4. Cards that negate are capable of negating these effects are also capable of being triggered, whether the negation effect be mandatory or not.

5. Spell speed 3 effects, Counter Traps are also permissible here, [apparently] whether or not they negate.

The implications of these are huge. I can think of so many.

If D.D. Scout Plane is discarded as a result of the end phase discard with Dimensional Fissure, etc. on the field , it's summon could only be responded to by a Counter Trap. Dark World Grimoire is similar. Cards of Safe Return would not be capable of being triggered if the monster were special summoned post-discard. There are dozens more.

As a result these impromptu "rulings", both my teammate and lost a great deal of games that would have been won otherwise. Of these games, the first and last games of our bubble matches, the games that decided whether or not we were able to make the top 32 playoffs, are included, so obviously I'm a little "sour grapes" about the entire situation.

Either the reasoning of very prominent members well known for understanding and explaining rulings and game mechanics on both the Pojo and DGZ forums is terribly wrong, or these impromptu rulings are correct. Considering that as Jerome doled these rulings out to me his tone stunk of "What can I say to get rid of this guy?", it's difficult to trust his judgment; but his word is law, as I was told so many times over the course of the weekend. I want to discuss either the implications of the decisions given by Jerome (if they become YGO law) or perhaps what the decision might have been if the only consideration were the absolute truth.

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ACP    33478

What the fuck? How does Jerome come up with this shit? It just seems like he's making up his own mechanics. Must be nice.

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»Ocelot    2339

is the question whether or not you can activate a super rejuvination that you draw into with another super rejuvination? this is the only application for the end phase i can think of but it's a pretty important one

there's also have like 9 cards in hand have 3 drags toss and play super but im pretty sure discarding is the last thing to happen

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gamemaster    250
is the question whether or not you can activate a super rejuvination that you draw into with another super rejuvination? this is the only application for the end phase i can think of but it's a pretty important one

there's also have like 9 cards in hand have 3 drags toss and play super but im pretty sure discarding is the last thing to happen

Well imagine if discarding is the "last" thing to happen. If I discarded a Manticore of Darkness to return to 6, I wouldn't be able special summon it, but I can. My opponent wouldn't be able to Bottomless/Torrential, yet they can. Say, I have a Card of Safe Return, activate it then draw back to seven. Clearly, I'm going to have to discard again. However, what if I am in the lucky case of having another Manticore ready to special summon? Do I immediately discard to 6? No, I can choose to continue to loop. In addition, if I draw any quickplay spells or have traps set that are capable of being activated, can't I activate them? I should be able to right?

According to Jerome's determinations on the end phase, the Manticore/Exodia loop would not work. I can come up with dozens of scenarios where "discarding is the last thing to happen" fails to explain what can happen afterward. In every one of those cases, "a player cannot end his/her turn with greater than 6 cards" & "discarding to 6 cards may happen at any time and any number of times during the end phase" explains it all.

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ACP    33478

ITT: we have irrefutable proof that Jerome is in fact a retard

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is the question whether or not you can activate a super rejuvination that you draw into with another super rejuvination? this is the only application for the end phase i can think of but it's a pretty important one

there's also have like 9 cards in hand have 3 drags toss and play super but im pretty sure discarding is the last thing to happen

Well imagine if discarding is the "last" thing to happen. If I discarded a Manticore of Darkness to return to 6, I wouldn't be able special summon it, but I can. My opponent wouldn't be able to Bottomless/Torrential, yet they can. Say, I have a Card of Safe Return, activate it then draw back to seven. Clearly, I'm going to have to discard again. However, what if I am in the lucky case of having another Manticore ready to special summon? Do I immediately discard to 6? No, I can choose to continue to loop. In addition, if I draw any quickplay spells or have traps set that are capable of being activated, can't I activate them? I should be able to right?

According to Jerome's determinations on the end phase, the Manticore/Exodia loop would not work. I can come up with dozens of scenarios where "discarding is the last thing to happen" fails to explain what can happen afterward. In every one of those cases, "a player cannot end his/her turn with greater than 6 cards" & "discarding to 6 cards may happen at any time and any number of times during the end phase" explains it all.

sorry this shit happened to you guys. i wasnt there but ive seen judges be huge dicks like this before and its almost like they get some huge power trip or some shit. like their the end all be all of ygo knowledge. and even when you give a huge amount of credible evidence on why your right, just like you did. they basically say fuck you im the master of this event.

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DantheMan    0

on the topic of him making bad rulings, i heard he screwed over dale bellido by claiming he played a solemn in time, when he only flipped it when the opponent played heavy. true or false?

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»Ocelot    2339
on the topic of him making bad rulings, i heard he screwed over dale bellido by claiming he played a solemn in time, when he only flipped it when the opponent played heavy. true or false?

True

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DantheMan    0
on the topic of him making bad rulings, i heard he screwed over dale bellido by claiming he played a solemn in time, when he only flipped it when the opponent played heavy. true or false?

True

wow. what a fucking faggot.

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»John Danker    945

C'mon folks, you know better than to get involved in accusations when you weren't there....at least I HOPE you know better than that. Hearsay is almost always full of holes and seldom includes all the relavent facts.

As far as the original topic...

Please show me the written mechanics of what can / cannot happen after the discard down to six cards at the end of the turn. You can't can you? So what makes you think that Jerome (who works in R&D for KDE) is incorrect in his ruling? Indeed what we have here is sour grapes, not a legitimate debate.

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»Pharaoh Atem    15834

The issue is simple.

We know that the discard is done as part of the End Phase, but as the last thing that must-be-done, as a deliberate discourse on the way to the next turn.

Sour grapes or no on part of the OP, there's a legit issue to be raised here.

Ultimately, the "X can't be done past discarding" rules are mentioned in such ways that there seems to be little reason to support them as anything but KSS.

This matter, like the matter of precisely WHAT can and can't respond to an RO that seeks to negate a Special Summon, is a matter of KSS until further notice.

That said, suck it up and stop insulting Jerome; you should all know by now that for all he does, he's in no position to write YGO law or know the exact details of the matter at hand. Being HJ for a Premier Event means you're expected to be versed in the important things of the day; and suffice it to say that your variant has not garnered enough attention for even Konami itself to have ruled on it OCG-land-wise, either officially or unofficially.

Konami itself lacking words means that Jerome is absolved of any "wrongdoing" here - and that Jerome now has an obligation to pressure Konami into making words.

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gamemaster    250
C'mon folks, you know better than to get involved in accusations when you weren't there....at least I HOPE you know better than that. Hearsay is almost always full of holes and seldom includes all the relavent facts.

As far as the original topic...

Please show me the written mechanics of what can / cannot happen after the discard down to six cards at the end of the turn. You can't can you? So what makes you think that Jerome (who works in R&D for KDE) is incorrect in his ruling? Indeed what we have here is sour grapes, not a legitimate debate.

Yeah, I spoke to you at the event John. While I am a bit perturbed about the ruling, I did try to write the OP without directly accusing Jerome of being totally wrong or insulting him. What makes me think it is a (literal) case of KSS is the holes in the ruling as well as well as the attitude in which Jerome delivered them. You're right, he did tell me that indeed there is not documentation on the subject and he would get back to KOJ to get something set in stone and I do appreciate him for that. But, what I'm trying to get at here is, if we are left with what he's ruled until then, there are quite a few issues that can be raised.

One of them being, well I plan to attend a regional this next weekend. I will be playing the same deck I played here. I know the HJ of the event. Do I tell him what Jerome said and have him rule that way for the tourney? If these rulings were applied hard and fast to everyone, it might be an issue, but for the most part it's likely the only one to suffer as a result of them is I; everyone else will go on Torrential Tributing D.D. Scout Planes discarded and returned during and D.D. Crowing flip effect monsters targeted by Night Assailant in, the End Phase. Or, I know that he's of the Pojo camp; left to his on devises he'll probably rule it the way other prominent members of the YGO online community have. It's almost a moral issue at this point.

The issue is simple.

We know that the discard is done as part of the End Phase, but as the last thing that must-be-done, as a deliberate discourse on the way to the next turn.

Sour grapes or no on part of the OP, there's a legit issue to be raised here.

Ultimately, the "X can't be done past discarding" rules are mentioned in such ways that there seems to be little reason to support them as anything but KSS.

This matter, like the matter of precisely WHAT can and can't respond to an RO that seeks to negate a Special Summon, is a matter of KSS until further notice.

That said, suck it up and stop insulting Jerome; you should all know by now that for all he does, he's in no position to write YGO law or know the exact details of the matter at hand. Being HJ for a Premier Event means you're expected to be versed in the important things of the day; and suffice it to say that your variant has not garnered enough attention for even Konami itself to have ruled on it OCG-land-wise, either officially or unofficially.

Konami itself lacking words means that Jerome is absolved of any "wrongdoing" here - and that Jerome now has an obligation to pressure Konami into making words.

If Jerome is to be insulted, it's for truly his failing in the customer service aspect of the HJ position. As far as rulings go, no matter who is damaged by them, mistakes are made; if the person is both courteous when delivering and apologetic when admitting wrong, most will forgive them. I didn't talk about it in the OP, but he was incredibly rude all weekend, even more so than normal. While I tried not to insult him so much in the OP, I'm sure most can imagine how angry someone could be when given a seemingly incorrect ruling which damages them again and again over the course of the most important YGO tournament in history, then the HJ who gives them said ruling is almost eager to be a douche to you when you want to talk about it.

I spoke to Frank Debrito about Jerome's conduct (purely on the customer service level here). Being a hardworking individual has never been an excuse to be an asshole. Everyone work's hard at what they do, they don't have free license to be discourteous with everyone they deal with. I assure if one of the parents of a YGO player attempted to speak with Jerome, he would have been a little more courteous. Why? Because most YGO players are essentially children, ready, willing, and able to be walked over by someone with power, while most parents attend a YGO tourney as a customer; not much different than mini golf or an amusement park. No matter how powerful (or really, the more powerful) an individual is, he won't be able to simply disrespect the customer and get away with it. Everyone, EVERYONE has to have some accountability.

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Sensei00S    80

That thing that happened to dale was a direct result of his opponent sharking him, jerome still ruled it wrong, but his opponent deliberately made that happen.

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ACP    33478
does tewart create the rulings or is there some other guy who does it?

I want to find the person so I can direct my anger towards

This!

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»John Danker    945

How the HJ of any other touranment rules it isn't set in stone I'm afraid...at least until the issue is officially addressed and written. I'd speak with the HJ before the touranment to know ahead of time if I were you.

I spoke to Jerome about the game mechanic and Super Rejuvination before the tournament. Jerome said that since there was no mechanics written for what happens after the end of turn discard he'd be going with what made the most sense to him and what he felt he could explain without writing 5 pages on the topic. Put yourself in his shoes on this one. You've got a virtually unaddressed game mechanic, whatever you rule could very well be setting prescident for the future, and it's YOU who will likely have to write the explination of the mechanic for all....if it were me I'd go with the most simple and sound thought pattern in my mind too.

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sidthekid87    112

john u owe me still

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ACP    33478
How the HJ of any other touranment rules it isn't set in stone I'm afraid...at least until the issue is officially addressed and written. I'd speak with the HJ before the touranment to know ahead of time if I were you.

I spoke to Jerome about the game mechanic and Super Rejuvination before the tournament. Jerome said that since there was no mechanics written for what happens after the end of turn discard he'd be going with what made the most sense to him and what he felt he could explain without writing 5 pages on the topic. Put yourself in his shoes on this one. You've got a virtually unaddressed game mechanic, whatever you rule could very well be setting prescident for the future, and it's YOU who will likely have to write the explination of the mechanic for all....if it were me I'd go with the most simple and sound thought pattern in my mind too.

And you'd go with the one that also contradicts previous rulings on end phase mechanics?

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»John Danker    945
And you'd go with the one that also contradicts previous rulings on end phase mechanics?

I did'nt say what I would do, I said he did what HE thought to be the most logical and what HE thought would be the easiest to explain. We all don't think a like. He may even have a change of thought pattern later on...but for the time being that's the way he was thinking.

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gamemaster    250

I'd say that Jerome did the most practical thing; martyr a few players that were playing, in his opinion, a degenerate deck, for the sake of the whole tournament. Whether what was said was right or wrong is secondary to whether it served the purpose of keeping the rulings simple and cohesive.

And, I can see why he would do that. He already knows that he's going to be inundated with appeals considering 2000+ players, why increase his workload for the sake of a small cluster of players playing a deck he does not like anyway? It's almost the simplest decision to make.

But, just as it's only fair that I put myself is his shoes, he should put his self in mine/ours. You spend months working on a deck, putting the money and effort into getting the cards, dozens of hours playtesting it, and you verify the rulings on the deck (multiple times) through every reputable source you can find. Once you're confident you are correct in your thinking, you spend several hundred dollars and almost 12 hours of driving to crisscross the country to go to the final of an event you've been attempting to do well at for over 5 years.

Finally, time comes to express the culmination of the many months of effort and the HJ of the event tells you as rudely as he can, though you had every indication you were right, you are wrong. Why? Because it's more work for him to do the right thing, than it is to do the wrong thing. Oh, and he does not like your degenerate deck anyway and you wouldn't have a problem if you hadn't tried to build a deck to abuse the mechanic your are complaining about. Then you are shooed away like so much refuse. If that person weren't outrageously angry with you ruling against them, they certainly would be angry with the way you conducted yourself.

The difficulty with martyring folks is that, while it deals with the problem they cause temporarily, it tends to rally many more around their cause than would come along if you hadn't martyred them in the first place.

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ACP    33478

What the fuck has yugioh come to? Let's make a wrong ruling for the sake of making the tournament run smoother? Rather than looking up a game mechanic that I'm not familiar with, I'm going to be a lazy fuck and make up some random shit off of the top of head? I mean it doesn't matter if I make a wrong ruling if it only affects 1% of the population right? I wouldn't have any of these attitudes if I was running a tournament. Judges/TOs need to get their priorities straight. Making the tournament run smoothly is very important, but making sure that everyone's playing a fair game of yugioh that follows the correct rules is even more important. I mean, normally I wouldn't say anything, but seriously, FUCK!

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shadowfox    2

Tony just come to me before the tournament starts next week. I am going to try to ask about what I can this week. I am still getting people call/texting me about this weekend. I hate that I couldn't be there. Not that I would have changed any situations but I think I could have helped the judges a little bit lol.

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