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Ron Paul 2012

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Haruki    12652
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMUZIVYuluc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMUZIVYuluc[/url]
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Sykotic    7974
nice that he actually got an opportunity to go on national television and explain his positions on things

these debates are laughable at best
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Schism    986
[quote name='Captain Sure.' timestamp='1324236795' post='3055137']
My nigga.
[/quote]
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Haruki    12652
[img]http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/9199/ronpaul2012.jpg[/img]
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[quote name='Elizabeth' timestamp='1324248495' post='3055254']
[img]http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/9199/ronpaul2012.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

[img]http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/9199/ronpaul2012.jpg[/img]
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Haruki    12652
[quote name='Mr. T' timestamp='1324248961' post='3055256']
[quote name='Elizabeth' timestamp='1324248495' post='3055254']
[img]http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/9199/ronpaul2012.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

[img]http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/9199/ronpaul2012.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
[img]http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/9199/ronpaul2012.jpg[/img]
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[quote name='Elizabeth' timestamp='1324249772' post='3055260']
[quote name='Mr. T' timestamp='1324248961' post='3055256']
[quote name='Elizabeth' timestamp='1324248495' post='3055254']
[img]http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/9199/ronpaul2012.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

[img]http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/9199/ronpaul2012.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
[img]http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/9199/ronpaul2012.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

This is what I feel like most conversations between Ron Paul fanboys sound like.

On topic, I do feel like he is punished by the media despite his significant and consistent polling.

As a socialist I'd prefer Paul to all the other Republicans with a Democratic legislature but I am terrified about the prospect of a Ron Paul government with Republicans in congress controlling both houses. The only stuff they'd agree on are the scary economic things that I hate and none of the civil liberties things I support.
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»Pharaoh Atem    15772
Advocacy for leaving more stuff to the states is advocacy for giving us a chance to let mistakes like Orval Faubus happen. I refuse to support such a position, and thus Paul fails my litmus.

I will take this Faubus thing to my grave - he ruined "states' rights" for me as a legitimate position, argument, et al. I, as citizen of Ohio, should be able to say to any other state's governing authorities in the Union that "hey, X is fucked up, and you ought be permanently removed from office for doing X."

"States' rights" removes the few damn teeth I have in forcing other states to be decent.

You may say "who am I to insist that they are indecent?"

I'm a rational human being who cares about people and isn't willing to extend blind benefits-of-the-doubt to positions I know are able to accomodate bigotry based on past evidence. Fuck anyone who is less willing to be vigilant about bigotry than I am, because their laziness is just the poison needed to turn this nation's more bigoted pockets into even bigger shitholes. I will drag the shitty-minded among us into the future kicking and screaming: their bigotry deserves no respect, and their feelings deserve no protection. Their decency is to be protected, so I will not be petty to them: but I will force them to inhabit the same space as the people they hate, and I will make them be good to those people, under massive penalty. Bigotry is the greatest enemy to a truly proper society, and I will kill it.


Paul's consistency and rationale on several things are [i]outright admirable[/i]. But he fails one of the most important things one can fail in this sort of discussion. He IS UNFAIRLY TREATED by certain elements of media - that unfair treatment, I think, is less "anti-Paul" but more "let's treat the election like it's about celebs", which explains why FOX kind of doesn't give Paul a properly deserved shake.

But he would make it easier for another Faubus to come into play, and I will NOT TOLERATE THAT in my commander-in-chief.

He IS a good man, I truly think - but he has crucial, and unforgivable, flaws that I refuse to endorse with my vote.

I for one thing think he is an excellent civil servant, but I feel he would be impossible to reconcile with a proper platform regarding social and economic issues. On matters of reform, honesty, and consistency, his simplicity is attractive as hell, and THERE IS A PLACE FOR HIM at the table as a result. That place is just not the President's place, is all. Keep him a representative, or make him a governor, or just take him out of the legislature and let him be part of presidential staff someday. But I won't tolerate what is ultimately a careless, far too trusting man to be the HNIC.
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Quack    1840
[quote name='Pharaoh Atem' timestamp='1324251111' post='3055271']
Advocacy for leaving more stuff to the states is advocacy for giving us a chance to let mistakes like Orval Faubus happen. I refuse to support such a position, and thus Paul fails my litmus.

I will take this Faubus thing to my grave - he ruined "states' rights" for me as a legitimate position, argument, et al. I, as citizen of Ohio, should be able to say to any other state's governing authorities in the Union that "hey, X is fucked up, and you ought be permanently removed from office for doing X."

"States' rights" removes the few damn teeth I have in forcing other states to be decent.

You may say "who am I to insist that they are indecent?"

I'm a rational human being who cares about people and isn't willing to extend blind benefits-of-the-doubt to positions I know are able to accomodate bigotry based on past evidence. Fuck anyone who is less willing to be vigilant about bigotry than I am, because their laziness is just the poison needed to turn this nation's more bigoted pockets into even bigger shitholes. I will drag the shitty-minded among us into the future kicking and screaming: their bigotry deserves no respect, and their feelings deserve no protection. Their decency is to be protected, so I will not be petty to them: but I will force them to inhabit the same space as the people they hate, and I will make them be good to those people, under massive penalty. Bigotry is the greatest enemy to a truly proper society, and I will kill it.


Paul's consistency and rationale on several things are [i]outright admirable[/i]. But he fails one of the most important things one can fail in this sort of discussion. He IS UNFAIRLY TREATED by certain elements of media - that unfair treatment, I think, is less "anti-Paul" but more "let's treat the election like it's about celebs", which explains why FOX kind of doesn't give Paul a properly deserved shake.

But he would make it easier for another Faubus to come into play, and I will NOT TOLERATE THAT in my commander-in-chief.

He IS a good man, I truly think - but he has crucial, and unforgivable, flaws that I refuse to endorse with my vote.

I for one thing think he is an excellent civil servant, but I feel he would be impossible to reconcile with a proper platform regarding social and economic issues. On matters of reform, honesty, and consistency, his simplicity is attractive as hell, and THERE IS A PLACE FOR HIM at the table as a result. That place is just not the President's place, is all. Keep him a representative, or make him a governor, or just take him out of the legislature and let him be part of presidential staff someday. But I won't tolerate what is ultimately a careless, far too trusting man to be the HNIC.
[/quote]
ron paul 2012
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Haruki    12652
[quote name='Wumbologist' timestamp='1324255155' post='3055333']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi1nxu-Sy-w[/media]
[/quote]
[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/miabiboy_14/GIFs And Funny Stuff/ObamaClapping.gif[/img]
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Haruki    12652
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P04BkJpGb6s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P04BkJpGb6s[/url]
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[quote name='Elizabeth' timestamp='1324255640' post='3055344']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P04BkJpGb6s[/media]
[/quote]
BLAHHHH SDI. Small government my ass.
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Haruki    12652
[img]http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/281683_10150277145816686_6233046685_7875244_2226498_n.jpg[/img]
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[quote name='Pharaoh Atem' timestamp='1324251111' post='3055271']
Advocacy for leaving more stuff to the states is advocacy for giving us a chance to let mistakes like Orval Faubus happen. I refuse to support such a position, and thus Paul fails my litmus.

I will take this Faubus thing to my grave - he ruined "states' rights" for me as a legitimate position, argument, et al. I, as citizen of Ohio, should be able to say to any other state's governing authorities in the Union that "hey, X is fucked up, and you ought be permanently removed from office for doing X."

"States' rights" removes the few damn teeth I have in forcing other states to be decent.

You may say "who am I to insist that they are indecent?"

I'm a rational human being who cares about people and isn't willing to extend blind benefits-of-the-doubt to positions I know are able to accomodate bigotry based on past evidence. Fuck anyone who is less willing to be vigilant about bigotry than I am, because their laziness is just the poison needed to turn this nation's more bigoted pockets into even bigger shitholes.[b] I will drag the shitty-minded among us into the future kicking and screaming: their bigotry deserves no respect, and their feelings deserve no protection[/b]. Their decency is to be protected, so I will not be petty to them: but I will force them to inhabit the same space as the people they hate, and I will make them be good to those people, under massive penalty. Bigotry is the greatest enemy to a truly proper society, and I will kill it.
[/quote]

i get your ideals, but this is about as far from realpolitik as you can get. you're going completely against one of the defining rules of politics, which is "strong fences make good neighbors." Actually carrying out your platform would be a recipe for a regional civil war in all but a few countries in the world (the U.S. being one of the possible rare exceptions thanks to GDP and at least a haphazard semblance of "tolerance").

Bring your ideas to iraq or syria and see how far it goes. now, remember that the U.S. has a far larger population, with far more factions.

one of the historically most powerful tools against bigotry/faubus-types is "vote with your feet." Your call for a holy war against bigotry sounds even more silly when placed into broader context and you start sounding...neoconservative of all things. If you really believe in a grand war against bigotry, arkansas is the least of your agenda. try afghanistan for starters, where you have outrages like this propagated on a [i]federal[/i] level (not a measly little state/provincial level, mind you):
[url="http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/Afghanistan/Afghan-woman-jailed-for-being-raped-wins-pardon/Article1-777212.aspx"]http://www.hindustan...le1-777212.aspx[/url]

[edit]
If a Afghan woman wants to escape oppression, escaping to the neighboring less-oppressive province isn't enough (doesn't exist). She has to escape the country.

Atem wrote:
[quote][color=#9F9F9F][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]turn this nation's more bigoted pockets into even bigger shitholes[/size][/font][/color][/quote]

surprisingly, yes. [i]let[/i] them become bigger shitholes. if it's only shitty, deserving people in the shitholes, would you really have a problem? you can't really stop shitty people from shitting in their own backyard, but what you CAN do is let the non-shitty people walk out of the shithole, so eventually the only people who get punished are the ones who deserve it, because they're the ones doing it.

"vote with your feet" can solve the problem of bigotry with a lot less kicking and screaming. once the wheat separates itself from the chaff, the chaff can degenerate (like prospero getting old and senile) into an isolated, irrelevant economic backwater, and eventually tossed into the dustbin of history. for example, california is the world's 8th largest economy with a GDP of 1.9 trillion. arkansas punches in at $103 billion. bigotry is naturally unconducive to economic development and innovation. bigots are naturally punishing themselves, the goal is to minimize the degree to which they can punish those around them - by [i]walking away[/i].

Suppose there are three feral cats, 2 male, 1 female, all in heat. Most statesmen try to keep them away from each other for starters. Your approach is akin to herding the cats into a small room, locking yourself in with those cats, and helping the hypothetical good cat to claw and bite at the other two "bad" cats.


[edit]
mage king wrote:
[quote]
This is what I feel like most conversations between Ron Paul fanboys sound like.
[/quote]

you should've been in berkeley during the 2008 race (and after). this is nothing
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[quote name='Mr. T' timestamp='1324263049' post='3055442']
[quote name='Pharaoh Atem' timestamp='1324251111' post='3055271']
Advocacy for leaving more stuff to the states is advocacy for giving us a chance to let mistakes like Orval Faubus happen. I refuse to support such a position, and thus Paul fails my litmus.

I will take this Faubus thing to my grave - he ruined "states' rights" for me as a legitimate position, argument, et al. I, as citizen of Ohio, should be able to say to any other state's governing authorities in the Union that "hey, X is fucked up, and you ought be permanently removed from office for doing X."

"States' rights" removes the few damn teeth I have in forcing other states to be decent.

You may say "who am I to insist that they are indecent?"

I'm a rational human being who cares about people and isn't willing to extend blind benefits-of-the-doubt to positions I know are able to accomodate bigotry based on past evidence. Fuck anyone who is less willing to be vigilant about bigotry than I am, because their laziness is just the poison needed to turn this nation's more bigoted pockets into even bigger shitholes.[b] I will drag the shitty-minded among us into the future kicking and screaming: their bigotry deserves no respect, and their feelings deserve no protection[/b]. Their decency is to be protected, so I will not be petty to them: but I will force them to inhabit the same space as the people they hate, and I will make them be good to those people, under massive penalty. Bigotry is the greatest enemy to a truly proper society, and I will kill it.
[/quote]

i get your ideals, but this is about as far from realpolitik as you can get. you're going completely against one of the defining rules of politics, which is "strong fences make good neighbors." Actually carrying out your platform would be a recipe for a regional civil war in all but a few countries in the world (the U.S. being one of the possible rare exceptions thanks to GDP and at least a haphazard semblance of "tolerance").

Bring your ideas to iraq or syria and see how far it goes. now, remember that the U.S. has a far larger population, with far more factions.

one of the historically most powerful tools against bigotry/faubus-types is "vote with your feet." Your call for a holy war against bigotry sounds even more silly when placed into broader context and you start sounding...neoconservative of all things. If you really believe in a grand war against bigotry, arkansas is the least of your agenda. try afghanistan for starters, where you have outrages like this propagated on a [i]federal[/i] level (not a measly little state/provincial level, mind you):
[url="http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/Afghanistan/Afghan-woman-jailed-for-being-raped-wins-pardon/Article1-777212.aspx"]http://www.hindustan...le1-777212.aspx[/url]

"vote with your feet" can solve the problem of bigotry with a lot less kicking and screaming. once the wheat separates itself from the chaff, the chaff can degenerate (like prospero getting old and senile) into an isolated, irrelevant economic backwater, and eventually tossed into the dustbin of history. for example, california is the world's 8th largest economy with a GDP of 1.9 trillion. arkansas punches in at $103 billion. bigotry is naturally unconducive to economic development and innovation. bigots are naturally punishing themselves, the goal is to minimize the degree to which they can punish those around them - by [i]walking away[/i].

[edit]
mage king wrote:
[quote]
This is what I feel like most conversations between Ron Paul fanboys sound like.
[/quote]

you should've been in berkeley during the 2008 race (and after). this is nothing
[/quote]

I was going to write up a long post about Atem laying the framework for a neo-con position too. Thanks for saving me the time.
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mage king wrote:
[quote]
As a socialist I'd prefer Paul to all the other Republicans with a Democratic legislature but I am terrified about the prospect of a Ron Paul government with Republicans in congress controlling both houses. The only stuff they'd agree on are the scary economic things that I hate and none of the civil liberties things I support.
[/quote]

i surprisingly agree with you on this. i think one of the best results we could have is a paul WH with a democratic legislature. In any event i believe the republicans will be losing a lot of seats in congress soon. a lot of americans (including many republicans) are really fed up with republican intransigence during all the congressional deadlocks this year.

i think what will mostly likely happen is 4 more years of obama, with a legislature that's more democrat than republican.

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[quote name='Mage King' timestamp='1324264596' post='3055469']

I was going to write up a long post about Atem laying the framework for a neo-con position too. Thanks for saving me the time.
[/quote]

i have a hunch he's channeling the late christopher hitchens.

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»Pharaoh Atem    15772
I have a hunch I'm just tired of bullshit, and Mr. Paul just looks like more bullshit - not from himself, but from idiots taking advantage of his positions and who he is as a person.

Mr. Paul is not the enemy - but his policies are vulnerability on the Faubus angle.

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»Pharaoh Atem    15772
[quote name='Mr. T' timestamp='1324263049' post='3055442']
[quote name='Pharaoh Atem' timestamp='1324251111' post='3055271']
Advocacy for leaving more stuff to the states is advocacy for giving us a chance to let mistakes like Orval Faubus happen. I refuse to support such a position, and thus Paul fails my litmus.

I will take this Faubus thing to my grave - he ruined "states' rights" for me as a legitimate position, argument, et al. I, as citizen of Ohio, should be able to say to any other state's governing authorities in the Union that "hey, X is fucked up, and you ought be permanently removed from office for doing X."

"States' rights" removes the few damn teeth I have in forcing other states to be decent.

You may say "who am I to insist that they are indecent?"

I'm a rational human being who cares about people and isn't willing to extend blind benefits-of-the-doubt to positions I know are able to accomodate bigotry based on past evidence. Fuck anyone who is less willing to be vigilant about bigotry than I am, because their laziness is just the poison needed to turn this nation's more bigoted pockets into even bigger shitholes.[b] I will drag the shitty-minded among us into the future kicking and screaming: their bigotry deserves no respect, and their feelings deserve no protection[/b]. Their decency is to be protected, so I will not be petty to them: but I will force them to inhabit the same space as the people they hate, and I will make them be good to those people, under massive penalty. Bigotry is the greatest enemy to a truly proper society, and I will kill it.
[/quote]

i get your ideals, but this is about as far from realpolitik as you can get. you're going completely against one of the defining rules of politics, which is "strong fences make good neighbors." Actually carrying out your platform would be a recipe for a regional civil war in all but a few countries in the world (the U.S. being one of the possible rare exceptions thanks to GDP and at least a haphazard semblance of "tolerance").

Bring your ideas to iraq or syria and see how far it goes. now, remember that the U.S. has a far larger population, with far more factions.

one of the historically most powerful tools against bigotry/faubus-types is "vote with your feet." Your call for a holy war against bigotry sounds even more silly when placed into broader context and you start sounding...neoconservative of all things. If you really believe in a grand war against bigotry, arkansas is the least of your agenda. try afghanistan for starters, where you have outrages like this propagated on a [i]federal[/i] level (not a measly little state/provincial level, mind you):
[url="http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/Afghanistan/Afghan-woman-jailed-for-being-raped-wins-pardon/Article1-777212.aspx"]http://www.hindustan...le1-777212.aspx[/url]

[edit]
If a Afghan woman wants to escape oppression, escaping to the neighboring less-oppressive province isn't enough (doesn't exist). She has to escape the country.

Atem wrote:
[quote][color=#9F9F9F][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]turn this nation's more bigoted pockets into even bigger shitholes[/size][/font][/color][/quote]

surprisingly, yes. [i]let[/i] them become bigger shitholes. if it's only shitty, deserving people in the shitholes, would you really have a problem? you can't really stop shitty people from shitting in their own backyard, but what you CAN do is let the non-shitty people walk out of the shithole, so eventually the only people who get punished are the ones who deserve it, because they're the ones doing it.

"vote with your feet" can solve the problem of bigotry with a lot less kicking and screaming. once the wheat separates itself from the chaff, the chaff can degenerate (like prospero getting old and senile) into an isolated, irrelevant economic backwater, and eventually tossed into the dustbin of history. for example, california is the world's 8th largest economy with a GDP of 1.9 trillion. arkansas punches in at $103 billion. bigotry is naturally unconducive to economic development and innovation. bigots are naturally punishing themselves, the goal is to minimize the degree to which they can punish those around them - by [i]walking away[/i].[/quote]

I will call you a dumbass only once. This is that moment.

"Vote with your feet" is not economically viable for all citizens, because citizens are not guaranteed what it takes to survive

The flaw of your mindset is simply that those in even worse Faubus situations can't escape, and you're telling them "just escape." So fuck your sensibilities; either you pick them up out of there, or your bitching just comes off as the whining of an overentitled westerner JUST LIKE ME. It's as fucking inane and stupid as the people who blindly believe in bootstraps; blind belief in feet is stupid when feet can't get you away.

There is no way to turn bigoted shitholes into bigoted shitholes inhabited only by the bigots who deserve them. Any insistence that anyone ought just "suffer for their lack of fortune" is the enemy here, and I will not have it. Realpolitik is a fucking failure.


And yeah, Arkansas is the least on the agenda: that much is true, but remember, shit about a random unknown woman thousands of miles away doesn't hit as hard as pointing out the Faubuses of today. I do not ignore the rest of the world - goodness knows I've got a lot of bigots in Africa to smack around - but I do use what rhetoric I feel is more likely to make my point.


And to bring in a "think of the children" angle - I cannot in good conscience tolerate bigots raising children who do not yet have the mental strength to rebel against said bigotries. It is indoctrination of the worst sort: an indoctrination that has a non-rational part of me convinced Almighty God exists and is going to send me to hell personally once I perish just so he can get his fucking rocks off. I will not have children feel that about their lives, ever, just for being what some religious person considers abominable. Not every child is some magical paragon like me; not every child can deal with despair for years in a religious and social sense and come out smelling like a rose. Some actually end up messed up, and some die. I will not tolerate it.
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»Pharaoh Atem    15772
I think I get why I'm not cut out for politics now - I'm too busy wanting to do a better job than God to tolerate mistakes.
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[quote name='Pharaoh Atem' timestamp='1324267004' post='3055519']
[b]And to bring in a "think of the children" angle - I cannot in good conscience tolerate bigots raising children who do not yet have the mental strength to rebel against said bigotries.[/b] It is indoctrination of the worst sort: an indoctrination that has a non-rational part of me convinced Almighty God exists and is going to send me to hell personally once I perish just so he can get his fucking rocks off.[b] I will not have children feel that about their lives, ever, just for being what some religious person considers abominable. Not every child is some magical paragon like me; not every child can deal with despair for years in a religious and social sense and come out smelling like a rose. Some actually end up messed up, and some die. I will not tolerate it.[/b]
[/quote]

i feel ya [b]100%[/b] on this. question is - [i]what the fuck can you do about it[/i]? all your arguments at the core are "Atem should be benevolent dictator for life"

[quote]
[font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]"Vote with your feet" is not economically viable for all citizens, because citizens are not guaranteed what it takes to survive[/size][/font]
[/quote]

Nothing's guaranteed. The Underground Railroad wasn't viable for everyone. but it did [i]a damn lot of good[/i].


[quote]
[font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]The flaw of your mindset is simply that those in even worse Faubus situations can't escape, and you're telling them "just escape." So fuck your sensibilities; either you pick them up out of there, or your bitching just comes off as the whining of an overentitled westerner JUST LIKE ME. It's as fucking inane and stupid as the people who blindly believe in bootstraps; blind belief in feet is stupid when feet can't get you away.[/size][/font]

[font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]There is no way to turn bigoted shitholes into bigoted shitholes inhabited only by the bigots who deserve them. Any insistence that anyone ought just "suffer for their lack of fortune" is the enemy here, and I will not have it. Realpolitik is a fucking failure.[/size][/font]
[/quote]

Well no shit it's not going to catch everything. But it remains the most viable and efficient way to save the ppl we can. It's already happening today - the ones who ARE able to escape shithole X and build a life of some sort, often are the perfect people who can and do go back to shithole X to help the ones who couldn't get out. for starters it's the story of a lot of immigrant families, mine included.

But what are you gonna do, send cops and social workers to every household to make sure parents aren't raising their children to be bigots, forcibly removing children from the households that do, and interring all of them in a big state-run foster home where they're taught all the "right" things? Or better yet, lock up parents? (in principle i would not be opposed, but the gulf between the "frictionless environment" of philosophy and gritty reality yawns very wide here)

Your accusation of me being some spoiled westerner is [s]bigoted[/s] unfair. I do not say the things i do lightly, or out of comfort. it weighs on me every day that there are those who can't escape, and those i can't save, and those the government can't save either. Life/God is cruel. But unlike you i'm not going to reject a workable plan because i won't settle for any less than a plan where no one falls through the cracks. to borrow game terminology, you're[i] too god damn greedy[/i]. It's the same reason bill clinton failed to pass healthcare reform: he tried to attack for game two turns into the duel. if he played it smart, slowly consolidating position and advantage piece by painstaking, disciplined piece (through realpolitik, cutting deals, brokering compromises, meticulously tailored speeches, and many backroom negotiations - all things which you seem to loathe)
it would've taken longer but [i]he would've actually accomplished to show for it[/i].

likewise this is your big weakness. you get emotional on this issue and try to push for game several turns too early. in all these other situations you have the masterful, cool, calculating head of a chessmaster, with the results to show. but when this issue comes up you revert from the King of Games to "wah, wah baby pharaoh wants justice NOW". like so many noobs, you're left with nothing because you demand everything.

i realize this is a bitter pill for you to swallow, but i still wanna put it out there
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