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George Zimmerman charged with 2nd Degree Murder

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»orangeeyes    11863
Literally everyone that refers to Trayvon's marijuana dealing/usage in an attempt to make an argument is a fucking scumbag.
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Wilson    12516
269 people like the post by someone who thinks the US population is 280 billion+

what site is that from?
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Zimmerman is not getting a trial by jury. In Florida they do not need a jury unless it were first degree murder.

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[quote name='Wilson' timestamp='1334260978' post='3153256']
269 people like the post by someone who thinks the US population is 280 billion+

what site is that from?
[/quote]
its the comment section of a yahoo news article.

[url="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/12/trayvon-martin-prosecution-faces-hurdles_n_1421270.html?ncid=webmail1"]http://www.huffingto...l?ncid=webmail1[/url]

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»Draigun    6835
[quote name='sanojio' timestamp='1334246960' post='3152992']
If he gets bail he'll be strung up
[/quote]

[url="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/20/george-zimmerman-bail-hearing_n_1440175.html?clear&ncid=webmail1"]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/20/george-zimmerman-bail-hearing_n_1440175.html?clear&ncid=webmail1[/url]

AWW HELL NAW

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Forlum    9162
So it's trial by judge right? Honestly, I stopped following the matter once it started to become a circus, but when I left off...

-Zimmerman admited to shooting Martin
-His story of what happened vague/unclear
-Police department didn't...they didn't do anything they should of to follow up on the matter essentially?
-I just googled, is it right he called 911 and told them he was going to follow the "supicious person"?

So obviously there is something quite suspect but has there been any recent evidence for or against? As it stands for a trial by judge it seems like he'd get off light/easy, right?

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Blex64    161
[quote name='Forlin' timestamp='1334951701' post='3160540']
So it's trial by judge right? Honestly, I stopped following the matter once it started to become a circus, but when I left off...

-Zimmerman admited to shooting Martin
-His story of what happened vague/unclear
-Police department didn't...they didn't do anything they should of to follow up on the matter essentially?
[b]-I just googled, is it right he called 911 and told them he was going to follow the "supicious person"?[/b]

So obviously there is something quite suspect but has there been any recent evidence for or against? As it stands for a trial by judge it seems like he'd get off light/easy, right?
[/quote]

I was told a while back that things had changed since I last paid close attention to the case, but from my original understanding:

Zimmerman was on watch duty and profiled Martin. He called 911 and reported him as a suspicious person, which is where the transcript comes from. At one point the operator asks Zimmerman if he's following Trayvon, Zimmerman said he was, and the operator instructed him not to. He's still on the phone when he confronts Trayvon and I believe you can hear the struggle and the gunshot.

Again, its been a few weeks since I paid close attention to the case at all, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I was told more recently (but still a couple weeks ago) that things had changed and a lot of evidence had come to light indicating Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and he defended himself. I was skeptical about this, especially since the person who told me that also seemed to think that everything was justified because Trayvon wasn't supposed to be in the area (among other things). But everything you listed is correct, as far as I know.
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»Ryuuzaki    2545
[quote name='Blex64' timestamp='1334979501' post='3160812']
[quote name='Forlin' timestamp='1334951701' post='3160540']
So it's trial by judge right? Honestly, I stopped following the matter once it started to become a circus, but when I left off...

-Zimmerman admited to shooting Martin
-His story of what happened vague/unclear
-Police department didn't...they didn't do anything they should of to follow up on the matter essentially?
[b]-I just googled, is it right he called 911 and told them he was going to follow the "supicious person"?[/b]

So obviously there is something quite suspect but has there been any recent evidence for or against? As it stands for a trial by judge it seems like he'd get off light/easy, right?
[/quote]

I was told a while back that things had changed since I last paid close attention to the case, but from my original understanding:

Zimmerman was on watch duty and profiled Martin. He called 911 and reported him as a suspicious person, which is where the transcript comes from. At one point the operator asks Zimmerman if he's following Trayvon, Zimmerman said he was, and the operator instructed him not to. He's still on the phone when he confronts Trayvon and I believe you can hear the struggle and the gunshot.

Again, its been a few weeks since I paid close attention to the case at all, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I was told more recently (but still a couple weeks ago) that things had changed and a lot of evidence had come to light indicating Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and he defended himself. I was skeptical about this, especially since the person who told me that also seemed to think that everything was justified because Trayvon wasn't supposed to be in the area (among other things). But everything you listed is correct, as far as I know.
[/quote]
Yea, I was just going to post this in order to disprove what has already been said about "proving it wasn't self defense". I mean..even after they told him to stop following Trayvon, he said OK and hung up, but we obviously know what happened wasn't such.

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Forlum    9162
Wow, holy shit, the qualifications for 2nd degree murder (and other types of murder) are wayyyyyy looser than i thought. MPC's definition of manslaughter seems more accurate.

I thought Zimmerman would get off easy/light as is, but if they can show he folllowed martin, he's going to get at least one of the manslaughters, and if he intiated contact 2nd degree murder is an easy pin.
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+rei+    34727
[quote name='Forlin' timestamp='1334982479' post='3160855']
Wow, holy shit, the qualifications for 2nd degree murder (and other types of murder) are wayyyyyy looser than i thought. MPC's definition of manslaughter seems more accurate.

I thought Zimmerman would get off easy/light as is, but if they can show he folllowed martin, he's going to get at least one of the manslaughters, and if he intiated contact 2nd degree murder is an easy pin.
[/quote]
The only nail in this is Florida;s stand your ground law - in every other state (except one, I forget which) you have an expectation to retreat when threat has been neutralized / you have the opportunity to. This isn't the case in florida

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Conspire    2391
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin"]http://en.wikipedia..../Trayvon_Martin[/url]

Almost every point in this article is cited. I have not checked up on the citations and are assuming they're legitimate. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of the facts.

Facts:

- Zimmerman locates Martin and assumes he's up to something
- Zimmerman is the single member of the neighbourhood watch
- Zimmerman calls the police and reports Martin as a suspicious person
- Martin flees and Zimmerman gives chase.
- Zimmerman is told he does not have to follow Martin, but does anyway. It is not illegal to not follow the advice of a 911 operator.
- Zimmerman is found with a broken nose and multiple injuries to the back of his head
- Martin is found dead with a single gun shot wound to the chest
- Zimmerman's gun was the weapon that killed Martin. Zimmerman is licensed to carry a firearm.

Claims:

- The only witness to see any of the altercation ("John") says he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. Martin was punching Zimmerman while Zimmerman called out for help.
- Zimmerman says Martin instigated the fight, and that Martin was punching Zimmerman and beating his head against the ground. Zimmerman's injuries corroborate this assertion.
- Zimmerman claims he shot Martin in self-defense

My opinions:

The racism in this case begins and ends with Zimmerman's decision that Martin was a suspicious person worthy of following. I would not dispute the claim that Zimmerman targeted Matin as a suspicious person because he was black. However to connect Zimmerman with being racist and Zimmerman shooting Martin is just wrong. Martin was shot by Zimmerman because he was assaulting Zimmerman, not because he was black. Could this all have been avoided if Zimmerman wasn't racist? Yes. But that doesn't give Martin the right to attack Zimmerman, and it doesn't mean Zimmerman can't defend himself because he started it. Martin was attacking Zimmerman to the point where Zimmerman could be afraid for his life or serious injury. Despite Zimmerman being much older he was not that much bigger, and Martin had the advantage of being on top.

- Black people have every right to be outraged at the fact that Zimmerman profiled Martin.
- People have every right to be outraged that a man killed a teen in self-defense, but in Florida Zimmerman did nothing illegal.
- Black people have no right to be outraged that Zimmerman (a white/hispanic person) killed Martin (a black person) based on the race of the two parties involved.
- I don't necessarily see how the Stand Your Ground statue affects this kind of ruling. How does one take the necessary steps to retreat after they've been attacked if they're knocked on the ground and mounted? If the testimony of "John" is true Zimmerman attempted to call for help before using his weapon.
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Ammit    5159
[quote name='Conspire' timestamp='1335051677' post='3161280']
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin"]http://en.wikipedia..../Trayvon_Martin[/url]

Almost every point in this article is cited. I have not checked up on the citations and are assuming they're legitimate. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of the facts.

Facts:

- Zimmerman locates Martin and assumes he's up to something
- Zimmerman is the single member of the neighbourhood watch
- Zimmerman calls the police and reports Martin as a suspicious person
- Martin flees and Zimmerman gives chase.
- Zimmerman is told he does not have to follow Martin, but does anyway. It is not illegal to not follow the advice of a 911 operator.
- Zimmerman is found with a broken nose and multiple injuries to the back of his head
- Martin is found dead with a single gun shot wound to the chest
- Zimmerman's gun was the weapon that killed Martin. Zimmerman is licensed to carry a firearm.

Claims:

- The only witness to see any of the altercation ("John") says he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. Martin was punching Zimmerman while Zimmerman called out for help.
- Zimmerman says Martin instigated the fight, and that Martin was punching Zimmerman and beating his head against the ground. Zimmerman's injuries corroborate this assertion.
- Zimmerman claims he shot Martin in self-defense

My opinions:

The racism in this case begins and ends with Zimmerman's decision that Martin was a suspicious person worthy of following. I would not dispute the claim that Zimmerman targeted Matin as a suspicious person because he was black. However to connect Zimmerman with being racist and Zimmerman shooting Martin is just wrong. Martin was shot by Zimmerman because he was assaulting Zimmerman, not because he was black. Could this all have been avoided if Zimmerman wasn't racist? Yes. But that doesn't give Martin the right to attack Zimmerman, and it doesn't mean Zimmerman can't defend himself because he started it. Martin was attacking Zimmerman to the point where Zimmerman could be afraid for his life or serious injury. Despite Zimmerman being much older he was not that much bigger, and Martin had the advantage of being on top.

- Black people have every right to be outraged at the fact that Zimmerman profiled Martin.
- People have every right to be outraged that a man killed a teen in self-defense, but in Florida Zimmerman did nothing illegal.
- Black people have no right to be outraged that Zimmerman (a white/hispanic person) killed Martin (a black person) based on the race of the two parties involved.
- I don't necessarily see how the Stand Your Ground statue affects this kind of ruling. How does one take the necessary steps to retreat after they've been attacked if they're knocked on the ground and mounted? If the testimony of "John" is true Zimmerman attempted to call for help before using his weapon.
[/quote]
The thing they need to figure out is when Travyon attack Zimmerman. Because let's face it, if I was being followed by some guy off the street, I might get scared too. Also, the whole self-defense thing falls through if Zimmerman initiated the chase/struggle.

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Animal    121
Profiling happens, and it's never going away. Because he was black, it has been turned into a racism issue. Zimmerman was on watch and profiled a guy, if the guy was white, and the whole scenario still happened, I GUARANTEE this shit would not be big news.

As a gas station owner, if you're robbed 4/6 days of the week by a black males, and while each of them may have been different individually, but wore similar clothes, that 7th day when a black male dressed similar to the ones before walks into the store, you can NOT tell me you will not profile them. Replace the gas station with any other scenario similar and you can't tell me profiling is common, but when it comes to profiling blacks, it's racist.

Twin Lakes was a target for criminal activity, Zimmerman was on watch. There was a string of burglaries, and and it appeared Trayvon was 'casing' out the neighborhood. In the past, I didn't check the reference on the wiki, but Zimmerman caught a thief before. If he had caught Trayvon as a thief, again, he would be looked at as a profiling hero instead of a profiling murderer.

This doesn't need to be looked at as Zimmerman being a racist bigot, but as a watch captain doing his job which he was successful at. This just goes to show how fucked up MSNBC / FOX / whatever can manipulate the masses.



edit: Oh, and I don't have a definite position on the murder part, because that's separate. I'm just talking about the intentions of initiation, not the actual murder. The initiation is what is making Zimmerman out to be a racist monster.
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[quote name='Animal' timestamp='1335059163' post='3161359']
Profiling happens, and it's never going away. Because he was black, it has been turned into a racism issue. Zimmerman was on watch and profiled a guy, if the guy was white, and the whole scenario still happened, I GUARANTEE this shit would not be big news.

As a gas station owner, if you're robbed 4/6 days of the week by a black males, and while each of them may have been different individually, but wore similar clothes, that 7th day when a black male dressed similar to the ones before walks into the store, you can NOT tell me you will not profile them. Replace the gas station with any other scenario similar and you can't tell me profiling is common, but when it comes to profiling blacks, it's racist.

Twin Lakes was a target for criminal activity, Zimmerman was on watch. There was a string of burglaries, and and it appeared Trayvon was 'casing' out the neighborhood. In the past, I didn't check the reference on the wiki, but Zimmerman caught a thief before. If he had caught Trayvon as a thief, again, he would be looked at as a profiling hero instead of a profiling murderer.

This doesn't need to be looked at as Zimmerman being a racist bigot, but as a watch captain doing his job which he was successful at. This just goes to show how fucked up MSNBC / FOX / whatever can manipulate the masses.



edit: Oh, and I don't have a definite position on the murder part, because that's separate. I'm just talking about the intentions of initiation, not the actual murder. The initiation is what is making Zimmerman out to be a racist monster.
[/quote]
[img]http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0wnl0QtCh1r23vax.gif[/img]
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Conspire    2391
[quote name='Ammit' timestamp='1335058736' post='3161356']
[quote name='Conspire' timestamp='1335051677' post='3161280']
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin"]http://en.wikipedia..../Trayvon_Martin[/url]

Almost every point in this article is cited. I have not checked up on the citations and are assuming they're legitimate. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of the facts.

Facts:

- Zimmerman locates Martin and assumes he's up to something
- Zimmerman is the single member of the neighbourhood watch
- Zimmerman calls the police and reports Martin as a suspicious person
- Martin flees and Zimmerman gives chase.
- Zimmerman is told he does not have to follow Martin, but does anyway. It is not illegal to not follow the advice of a 911 operator.
- Zimmerman is found with a broken nose and multiple injuries to the back of his head
- Martin is found dead with a single gun shot wound to the chest
- Zimmerman's gun was the weapon that killed Martin. Zimmerman is licensed to carry a firearm.

Claims:

- The only witness to see any of the altercation ("John") says he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. Martin was punching Zimmerman while Zimmerman called out for help.
- Zimmerman says Martin instigated the fight, and that Martin was punching Zimmerman and beating his head against the ground. Zimmerman's injuries corroborate this assertion.
- Zimmerman claims he shot Martin in self-defense

My opinions:

The racism in this case begins and ends with Zimmerman's decision that Martin was a suspicious person worthy of following. I would not dispute the claim that Zimmerman targeted Matin as a suspicious person because he was black. However to connect Zimmerman with being racist and Zimmerman shooting Martin is just wrong. Martin was shot by Zimmerman because he was assaulting Zimmerman, not because he was black. Could this all have been avoided if Zimmerman wasn't racist? Yes. But that doesn't give Martin the right to attack Zimmerman, and it doesn't mean Zimmerman can't defend himself because he started it. Martin was attacking Zimmerman to the point where Zimmerman could be afraid for his life or serious injury. Despite Zimmerman being much older he was not that much bigger, and Martin had the advantage of being on top.

- Black people have every right to be outraged at the fact that Zimmerman profiled Martin.
- People have every right to be outraged that a man killed a teen in self-defense, but in Florida Zimmerman did nothing illegal.
- Black people have no right to be outraged that Zimmerman (a white/hispanic person) killed Martin (a black person) based on the race of the two parties involved.
- I don't necessarily see how the Stand Your Ground statue affects this kind of ruling. How does one take the necessary steps to retreat after they've been attacked if they're knocked on the ground and mounted? If the testimony of "John" is true Zimmerman attempted to call for help before using his weapon.
[/quote]
The thing they need to figure out is when Travyon attack Zimmerman. Because let's face it, if I was being followed by some guy off the street, I might get scared too. Also, the whole self-defense thing falls through if Zimmerman initiated the chase/struggle.
[/quote]

The thing is no matter how scared you are, there's no rational for attacking someone. No matter how infuriated you are, there's no rational for attacking someone. If Joe Racist is walking down the street and sees a Jamal Noharm walking towards him and shouts "Fuck you nigger! Get off the sidewalk! The sidewalk is for white people!" that doesn't give Jamal Noharm the right to attack Joe Racist. Jamal has a right to not be subjected to hate crimes, and Joe Racist should be punished for infringing upon Jamal's rights. But if Jamal takes it upon himself to violently attack Joe Racist and threaten his personal safety, Joe Racist has the right to protect himself.

One thing that sticks out in my mind for this case is that Zimmerman only fired one shot. To me that means he was shooting to end the altercation.

However as has been stated before we only really have Zimmerman's side of the story. Even the witness account from "John," the only one who saw anything before Martin was shot, was limited to seeing only the part of the altercation where Martin had the upper hand. Has there been any evidence to suggest Zimmerman struck Martin? Or threatened Martin's personal safety? That would go a long way in determining whether or not Martin was defending himself or simply being a thug.

I'm mostly pissed off at 1) the way the american media has portrayed Martin as an innocent 13 year old kid who was shot in cold blood and 2) the response of "black intellectual leaders." I use quotations because I've never had any respect for Al Sharpton or a handful of those who have cried their outrage over this case.
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[quote] That would go a long way in determining whether or not Martin was defending himself or simply being a thug.

[/quote]

[quote]I'm mostly pissed off at 1) the way the american media has portrayed Martin as an innocent 13 year old kid who was shot in cold blood[/quote]

[img]http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx14/purexxed/1315160248726.png[/img]
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Gear    712
There's so much to comment to in here lol. The one thing I want to say though is that it may not be rational to do certain things but it doesnt stop people from doing them. Understand that when someone is following you for whatever reason you are going to be put into a fear state which you are going to be in a flight or fight response because when your being followed your first thoughts are fearing for your life. Also, Trayvon is still young so of course his decisions aren't going to be mature and rational. I mean look at the majority of ygo players who think its cool to stalk and steal yugioh cards.

Zimmerman who was also being irrational by not listening to the cops followed Trayvon anyway. Now this gets me because many people say Trayvon instigated the fight which I believe when your following someone out of whatever purpose your the instigator. The moment you begin following someone your the instigator. You just dont follow someone and just think they are not going to have hostile reaction. Most peoples reaction isnt to call the cops when they are being stalked. Most people are going to stand there ground, shout, run, and/or etc.

I know I have a simplistic view of things but thats just a few things on my mind. I think the racist thing got blown up way to much and Zimmerman was most likely profiling. Im more offended about the late response than the racism attack but Thats just the world we live in. imo I think this case is going to be used as an example for people. You just cannot be in a neighborhood watch, follow a suspect, get in a fight(losing) , and shoot that person and claim it to be justified.

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Wumbologist    14205
http://www.infowars.com/suspect-i-beat-up-white-man-because-i-am-mad-about-trayvon-martin-case

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»Audioslayne    909
[quote name='Wumbologist' timestamp='1335164605' post='3162249']
[url="http://www.infowars.com/suspect-i-beat-up-white-man-because-i-am-mad-about-trayvon-martin-case"]http://www.infowars....von-martin-case[/url]
[/quote]
And the only reason that's posted anywhere is because they mentioned the Trayvon case as their motivation, afterall, the 'victim' isn't even a minority. That's probably what angers me the most about this case, it isn't the medias overreaction or steering of the public mind, but the fact that they had to make this racially motivated. Murder (or self defense) is just that, regardless of who commits it or who the victim is. If Zimmerman was black this would not be national news, and that disgusts me.

As far as my personal opinion goes, I generally agree with everything rei posted. In response to whether or not there can be proof Zimmerman did or did not instigate the fight, I believe I read on some news site (take that for what you will) that the individual who performed Trayvon's autopsy stated that besides the obvious gunshot wound there was no sign of bruising or anything on Trayvon's body that would indicate a fight or resistance from Zimmerman besides the shooting so take that for what you will. If I have time in the morning I'll fetch the link and post it here.

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»orangeeyes    11863
[quote name='Audioslayne' timestamp='1335168814' post='3162282']
[quote name='Wumbologist' timestamp='1335164605' post='3162249']
[url="http://www.infowars.com/suspect-i-beat-up-white-man-because-i-am-mad-about-trayvon-martin-case"]http://www.infowars....von-martin-case[/url]
[/quote]
If Zimmerman was black this would not be national news, and that disgusts me.
[/quote]
Wow, that is an interesting perspective I have never seen before. Very realist and cutting-edge insight there. I put you on intellectual par with the geniuses that say "A WHITE GIRL GOT MURDERED BY A BLACK MAN, WHY ISN'T THIS A HUGE NEWS STORY?"
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Conspire    2391
[quote name='Gear' timestamp='1335103979' post='3161677']The moment you begin following someone your the instigator. You just dont follow someone and just think they are not going to have hostile reaction. Most peoples reaction isnt to call the cops when they are being stalked. Most people are going to stand there ground, shout, run, and/or etc.
[/quote]

I couldn't agree with this any less. Just because someone is following you does not mean you get to attack them. Martin has his cell phone with him. Why doesn't he call the police and say he's being followed? Running is fine too (the transcript of Zimmerman's 911 call suggests Martin did run.)

[quote]You just cannot be in a neighborhood watch, follow a suspect, get in a fight(losing) , and shoot that person and claim it to be justified. [/quote]

This is an idiotic statement. You think it's OK for someone to violently attack another person for following them but that it's not OK for someone to shoot another person who is killing them?

Your judgment is obviously clouded on this subject.
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