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George Zimmerman charged with 2nd Degree Murder

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Jesus the Jew    986
Honestly, it might have been a good thing that they waited. Just after the murder the entire country had crucified Zimmerman without even knowing what actually happened. And you had guys like Dwayne Wade wearing stuff to commemorate the whole thing. There was simply too much propaganda going around. It is a little less at this point, but it might increase again now that this news came out.

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Animal    121
[img]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/03/article-2242479-1655BFE0000005DC-565_634x599.jpg[/img]


Tell me he didn't feel threatened. Thread done, everyone that posted here against him looks fucking stupid.
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Evolution`    2037
[quote name='Animal' timestamp='1354891877' post='3342300']
[img]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/03/article-2242479-1655BFE0000005DC-565_634x599.jpg[/img]


Tell me he didn't feel threatened. Thread done, everyone that posted here against him looks fucking stupid.
[/quote]
This makes no sense because if Zimmerman is claiming self-defense then there was obviously a fight of some sort to where Zimmerman was injured and felt he needed to defend himself. But if he was attacking Martin then obviously Martin would have struck him back.
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+rei+    34681
Nothing says lethal force like a split lip.
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Animal    121
[quote name='rei' timestamp='1354893971' post='3342312']
Nothing says lethal force like a split lip.
[/quote]
According to Florida.

Nose, side of head, back of head, lip. Trayvon attacked George. Trayvon had no reason to attack him.
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Evolution`    2037
[quote name='Animal' timestamp='1354894629' post='3342315']
[quote name='rei' timestamp='1354893971' post='3342312']
Nothing says lethal force like a split lip.
[/quote]
According to Florida.

Nose, side of head, back of head, lip. Trayvon attacked George. Trayvon had no reason to attack him.
[/quote]
BECAUSE HE WAS BLACK RIGHT?
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».ben.    7438
This certainly muddies the waters a bit. The case will likely come down to who was the initial aggressor and who escalated the violence.

This is the problem when the media takes a big stand on a story long before all of the facts are known. Shades of Duke Lacrosse. (which *shocker* was also a black-white thing...even though Zimmerman isn't "white" per se).


[quote name='Donnie' timestamp='1354288323' post='3336372']
I'm a firm believer that if you go looking for trouble with a gun, you're going to find it.
[/quote]

Also, super true post.

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+rei+    34681
I don't dispute there was a physical altercation but i dont think there's evidence in Zimmerman's favour as to how the altercation started.

That said I'm really not concerned about the legal battle at the moment rather focusing on how wrong it is regardless of stand your ground laws.

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Animal    121
This is just another case of media-bias. Provide little information that can be interpreted but not said to sway the masses. People can read 10 articles that only has 1 source and try and use that as justification for their argument when that isn't good enough. Multiple sources are needed, deep thought, and the ability to try and see multiple scenarios.

Read, read, read.
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Jesus the Jew    986
Says the guy who's spewing his own bias on this thread.

Objectively speaking, Zimmermann is innocent. There is reasonable doubt in the case and, by law, he should not be found guilty. Unless, of course, there is evidence proving him the aggressor in the fight definitively.
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beetle    1115
This case will always go back to: Why in the fuck did Zimmerman chase Trevon? What probable cause did he possibly have to be carrying a gun and chasing around an innocent black kid that was literally doing nothing but walking home? If George follows police orders and minds his own business absolutely none of this happends. I think the charges are a bit deep for the crime, but it's still a crime. Murder? Maybe, self-defense? Maybe. Did he cause the situation to occur? Absolutely.

He should serve some time for this crime. Witnesses have said that George was on top of Trevon when they heard the gun go off. That to me seems like George was in control and could have stopped it all at that moment without actually shooting his gun.

What he did was borderline-racist, he instigated the situation, a fight occured and he killed a kid. In any other state, this is a crime of some degree.

Something to think about:

I've had several friends followed and stopped at knife-point in shitty areas of Madison, WI. There are some neighborhoods that this is known for. They have been robbed, their houses broken into, cars, etc. If someone rushed up to me I would try my hardest to absolutely fuck them up however I could or run away if I was able to. I would try to do worse than Trevon did to Zimmerman, I would try to disable them by any means hopefully not killing them because I don't want to be that statistic, I don't want to be robbed, I don't want to be killed by some lunatic. You never know what a stranger wants when they follow you around and catch up to you.

I cannot possibly believe that George walked up to Trevon with a big smile on his face and a gentleman-like greeting. It didn't happen. You could hear from the call the desperation in his voice like shit was about to go down and a kid died for it.
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».ben.    7438
[quote name='rei' timestamp='1354897419' post='3342335']
I don't dispute there was a physical altercation but i dont think there's evidence in Zimmerman's favour as to how the altercation started.

That said I'm really not concerned about the legal battle at the moment rather focusing on how wrong it is regardless of stand your ground laws.
[/quote]

Do you mean how wrong stand your ground laws are? Or how wrong this situation is in general?

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»orangeeyes    11863
[quote name='Animal' timestamp='1354891877' post='3342300']
[img]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/03/article-2242479-1655BFE0000005DC-565_634x599.jpg[/img]


Tell me he didn't feel threatened. Thread done, everyone that posted here against him looks fucking stupid.
[/quote]
how can someone be this retarded

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+rei+    34681
[quote name='benthegreat' timestamp='1354906808' post='3342442']
[quote name='rei' timestamp='1354897419' post='3342335']
I don't dispute there was a physical altercation but i dont think there's evidence in Zimmerman's favour as to how the altercation started.

That said I'm really not concerned about the legal battle at the moment rather focusing on how wrong it is regardless of stand your ground laws.
[/quote]

Do you mean how wrong stand your ground laws are? Or how wrong this situation is in general?
[/quote]
both

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beetle    1115
btw, you can hardly even feel a busted nose or lip while in a fight. I'm being 100% serious. It just pisses you off really bad sometimes. I've been been legit training BJJ/MMA for 3+ years and I can't even feel shit like that for several hours until your mind/body cools down. Literally on the hard mma days if you didn't have a black eye and a nose bleed you're either really good or you didn't try hard enough lol.

The only reason that picture looks bad is because he didn't clean his nose bleed. If he had he'd just have a swollen nose/black eye. OH GOD NO THE MURDEROUS INTENT BEHIND THAT!!!!

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»orangeeyes    11863
lol yeah

>bust your lip
>don't clean it up
>take a selfie instead

SEEMS LEGIT
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».ben.    7438
[quote name='orangeeyes' timestamp='1354908732' post='3342466']
lol yeah

>bust your lip
>don't clean it up
>take a selfie instead

SEEMS LEGIT
[/quote]

the police took it. he's sitting in the cop car. you can tell by the screen in the back.

[quote name='rei' timestamp='1354907951' post='3342458']
[quote name='benthegreat' timestamp='1354906808' post='3342442']
[quote name='rei' timestamp='1354897419' post='3342335']
I don't dispute there was a physical altercation but i dont think there's evidence in Zimmerman's favour as to how the altercation started.

That said I'm really not concerned about the legal battle at the moment rather focusing on how wrong it is regardless of stand your ground laws.
[/quote]

Do you mean how wrong stand your ground laws are? Or how wrong this situation is in general?
[/quote]
both
[/quote]

I agree that the situation in general is wrong.

The stand your ground-type laws are extreme, but the opposite side of the spectrum can be as well. My friend's college roommate is facing murder charges right now b/c he and his girlfriend were being mugged by a group of guys in Philly, everyone pulled their guns, and his roommate shot first. Self-defense isn't an automatic defense (thus the reason charges were filed) b/c he escalated the situation by pulling out his gun first.

Obviously, that sort of situation occurs much less frequently than a death that is "defended" by stand your ground laws, but I can understand the complications that arise on the other side as well.


UPDATE: I just asked my friend. A jury ultimately found the kid Not Guilty. But the fact remains that he still had to deal with the bullshit.
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beetle    1115
Every bloody injury looks a thousand-times worse before you clean it up. George got a bloody nose and the media dresses it up like he got raped and tortured. Rihanna got a beating worse than this (and no, i'm not really joking about it).

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»orangeeyes    11863
ah, didn't notice that

and seriously, I've had glass cuts on my finger that looked worse than that. absolutely nothing about that picture suggests mortal danger or even stitches.
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beetle    1115
Like what could he have possibly said to police right there after he was questioned? "Hey officer, some kid I was chasing busted my nose so I killed him"?

I really do feel that this trial will have some OJ-type ending.

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Laser Cat    5611
[quote name='beetle' timestamp='1354901756' post='3342383']This case will always go back to: Why in the fuck did Zimmerman chase Trevon? [/quote]
According to the police tapes and Zimmerman, after being told he shouldn't follow Trayvon he said "okay" and returned to his car. Zimmerman claims that the attack happened while he was walking back to his car.
[quote name='beetle' timestamp='1354901756' post='3342383']
What probable cause did he possibly have to be carrying a gun and chasing around an innocent black kid that was literally doing nothing but walking home?
[/quote]
Carrying a gun is legal in Florida. To the particular reason why he was carrying a gun?
[spoiler][quote]Zimmerman had been licensed to carry a firearm since November 2009. In response to Zimmerman's multiple reports regarding a loose [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull"]pit bull[/url] in the Twin Lakes neighborhood, a Seminole County Animal Services officer advised Zimmerman to "get a gun" rather than rely on pepper spray to fend off the pit bull, which on one occasion had cornered his wife.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-Francescani425-62"][61][/url][/sup] Although neighborhood watch volunteers are not encouraged to carry weapons, Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee acknowledged that Zimmerman had a legal right to carry his firearm on the night of the shooting.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-Caller-69"][68][/url][/sup][/quote][/spoiler]
Why he was chasing/being suspcious of a black kid?
[spoiler][quote]
From January 1, 2011 through February 26, 2012, police were called to The Retreat at Twin Lakes 402 times.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-Caller-69"][68][/url][/sup] During the 18 months preceding the February 26 shooting, Zimmerman called the non-emergency police line seven times. On five of those calls, Zimmerman reported suspicious looking men in the area, but never offered the men's race without first being asked by the dispatcher.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-nbc_7_calls-102"][101][/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-nydaily_7_calls-103"][102][/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-104"][103][/url][/sup] Crimes committed at The Retreat in the year prior to Martin's death included eight burglaries, nine thefts, and one shooting.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-dailybeast_911_calls-105"][104][/url][/sup] Twin Lakes residents said there were dozens of reports of attempted break-ins, which had created an atmosphere of fear in their neighborhood. In one case a woman with an infant hid in an upstairs room until the police arrived and scared away the intruders, who had already entered her home and disconnected the television.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-Francescani425-62"][61][/url][/sup]
In September 2011, the Twin Lakes residents held an organizational meeting to create a neighborhood watch program. Zimmerman was selected by neighbors as the program's coordinator, according to Wendy Dorival, [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Watch"]Neighborhood Watch[/url] organizer for the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanford_Police_Department_%28Florida%29"]Sanford Police Department[/url].[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-designated_watch-6"][5][/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-gunrules-106"][105][/url][/sup] Zimmerman "once caught a thief and an arrest was made...He helped solve a lot of crimes," said Cynthia Wibker, secretary of the homeowners association.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-Caller-69"][68][/url][/sup]
Three weeks prior to the shooting, on February 2, 2012, Zimmerman called police to report a young man peering into the windows of an empty Twin Lakes home. Zimmerman was told a police car was on the way, and he followed protocol, awaiting their arrival. By the time police arrived, the suspect had fled. On February 6, 2012, workers witnessed two young black men lingering in the yard of a Twin Lakes resident around the same time her home was burglarized. A new laptop and some gold jewelry were stolen. The next day police discovered the stolen laptop in the backpack of a young black man, which led to his arrest. Zimmerman identified this young man as the same person he had spotted peering into windows on February 2.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-Francescani425-62"][61][/url][/sup]
[/quote][/spoiler]



[quote name='beetle' timestamp='1354901756' post='3342383']
If George follows police orders and minds his own business absolutely none of this happends. I think the charges are a bit deep for the crime, but it's still a crime. Murder? Maybe, self-defense? Maybe. Did he cause the situation to occur? Absolutely.
[/quote]
Goes back to what I said earlier about his side of the story is "he was returning to his car". He called the police about a suspicious person, nothing wrong with that. If his account is true (that he was returning to the car when Trayvon attacked him) then it is difficult to say that he is the sole cause of the altercation.

[quote name='beetle' timestamp='1354901756' post='3342383']
He should serve some time for this crime. Witnesses have said that George was on top of Trevon when they heard the gun go off. That to me seems like George was in control and could have stopped it all at that moment without actually shooting his gun.
[/quote]
Seriously, where are you getting your info lol. Multiple witnesses claimed Zimmerman was on top and multiple witness claimed Trayvon was on top. Same thing for who was screaming for help. This sadly boils down to "who the fuck knows".
[spoiler]
[quote]
\ Recordings of eight calls to the police made on the night of the shooting were released by the Sanford police on March 17, 2012.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-911tape-111"][110][/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-WFTV-165"][162][/url][/sup]
A witness to the confrontation just prior to the shooting stated that Martin was on top of Zimmerman and punching him, while Zimmerman was yelling for help. This witness, who identified himself as "John", stated that "the guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911".[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-WitnessJohn-166"][163][/url][/sup] He went on to say that when he got upstairs and looked down, "the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point.".[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-WitnessJohn-166"][163][/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-167"][164][/url][/sup]
A 13-year-old boy walking his dog saw a man on the ground shortly before the shooting and identified him as wearing red.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-168"][165][/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-169"][166][/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-170"][167][/url][/sup] His mother later disputed the testimony and claimed that the police pressured him into choosing the color that the man was wearing and that her son could not see any details in the dark. She also stated that the police waited five days before requesting to even question her son and said that the lead homicide investigator told her that he did not believe the shooting was self defense.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-MSNBC-CherylBrown-171"][168][/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-DailyNews-CherylBrown-172"][169][/url][/sup]
Mary Cutcher and her roommate, Selma Mora Lamilla, appeared on [i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_360"]AC 360[/url][/i], and Cutcher stated that she believes that "there was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling" just prior to the shooting but admitted that she neither saw the shooting nor the preceding [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altercation"]altercation[/url].[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-anderson_cooper-173"][170][/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-witness_teen_slaying-174"][171][/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-anderson_cooper_mediaite-175"][172][/url][/sup] Cutcher and her roommate heard the pair in their backyard and a "very young voice" whining, with no sounds of a fight. They heard a gunshot; the crying stopped immediately, and they saw Zimmerman on his knees straddling Martin on the ground.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-anderson_cooper-173"][170][/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-anderson_cooper_mediaite-175"][172][/url][/sup] Mary Cutcher phoned police after the fatal shooting and said the black man was standing over another man, although Trayvon Martin was already dead.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-Robles3Apr-43"][42][/url][/sup] According to the [i]Orlando Sentinel[/i] article, "Police spokesman Sgt. Dave Morgenstern [on March 15] issued a statement disputing Cutcher's version of events, calling her statements to WFTV "inconsistent with her sworn testimony to police."[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-176"][173][/url][/sup] However, Cutcher and her roommate maintain that their account of the incident to the police did not agree with Zimmerman's, and they demanded the police issue a retraction.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-witness_teen_slaying-174"][171][/url][/sup]
On March 29, 2012, an eyewitness referred to as a male said that he saw two men on the ground scuffling, then heard the shooting, and saw Zimmerman walk away with no blood on him.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-177"][174][/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-178"][175][/url][/sup] The witness later appeared on CNN AC360 referred to as a female, giving more details on her account. She pointed out that she heard an argument between a younger and an older voice. During the time that she witnessed the incident, the scuffling happened on the grass. She said that the larger man, who walked away after the gunshot, was on top and that it was too dark to see blood on his face.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-179"][176][/url][/sup]
A witness who arrived shortly after the shooting revealed photos that he took that night that showed "blood trickling down the back of Zimmerman's head from two cuts. It also shows a possible contusion forming on the crown of his head". In revealing the photo to [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABC_News"]ABC News[/url] in mid-April, he noted that he had heard but had not seen the scuffle, had been the first to arrive, and had been the first to talk to Zimmerman after the shooting.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-Zimmerman_back_head-18"][17][/url][/sup]
One eye-witness statement given the night of the shooting describes "a black male, wearing a dark colored 'hoodie' on top of a white or Hispanic male who was yelling for help." The witness said that the black male was throwing punches "MMA [mixed martial arts] style." After hearing a "pop," he saw the black male "laid out on the grass."[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-180"][177][/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-181"][178][/url][/sup] When the witness was subsequently interviewed weeks later by a different agency, the witness said he thought that the black male was either punching or pinning the lighter skinned male underneath him. He was no longer certain who was calling for help, having not seen their mouths in the dark. He was still certain that the black male had been on top of the lighter-skinned male.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-witnesseschange-182"][179][/url][/sup]
On March 20, Martin family attorney, Benjamin Crump revealed that Martin had been on the phone with a friend moments before he was shot.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-abc_friend_phone-183"][180][/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-nytimes_friend_phone-184"][181][/url][/sup] During an ABC News exclusive report, Crump allowed portions of his recorded interview with Martin's friend to be aired. She said that Martin told her that a man was watching him from his vehicle while talking on the phone before the man started following Martin. Martin told his friend at one point that he had lost the man but the man suddenly appeared again.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-abc_friend_phone-183"][180][/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-nytimes_friend_phone-184"][181][/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-zimmerman_discovery_USA_Today-185"][182][/url][/sup] The friend said that she told Martin to run to the townhouse where he was staying with his father and the father's girlfriend.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-nytimes_friend_phone-184"][181][/url][/sup] She then heard Martin say, "What are you following me for?" followed by a man's voice responding, "What are you doing around here?" She said that she heard the sound of pushing before the phone went dead. She immediately attempted to call him back, but was unable to reach him.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-Friend-186"][183][/url][/sup] Crump stated that he would turn the information over to the Justice Department because "the family does not trust the Sanford Police Department to have anything to do with the investigation."[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-abc_friend_phone-183"][180][/url][/sup] Martin's friend was subsequently interviewed by state prosecutors on April 2, 2012. During her interview with the prosecutor, Martin's friend recounted her last phone call with Martin and added that Martin had described the man as "crazy and creepy," watching him from a vehicle while the man was talking on the phone.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-nytimes_friend_phone-184"][181][/url][/sup] Martin's friend told prosecutors that she heard words like "get off, get off," right before she lost contact with Martin.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-nytimes_friend_phone-184"][181][/url][/sup]
[/quote]
[/spoiler]


[quote name='beetle' timestamp='1354901756' post='3342383']
What he did was borderline-racist, he instigated the situation, a fight occured and he killed a kid. In any other state, this is a crime of some degree.
[/quote]
"Borderline -racist" is still a bit strong. He profiled Martin but it was only based on what had been going on in that neighborhood for the last year. The first quote I gave you should be more than enough evidence of this and there is really no other evidence that supports him being racist.



[quote name='beetle' timestamp='1354901756' post='3342383']
I've had several friends followed and stopped at knife-point in shitty areas of Madison, WI. There are some neighborhoods that this is known for. They have been robbed, their houses broken into, cars, etc. If someone rushed up to me I would try my hardest to absolutely fuck them up however I could or run away if I was able to. I would try to do worse than Trevon did to Zimmerman, I would try to disable them by any means hopefully not killing them because I don't want to be that statistic, I don't want to be robbed, I don't want to be killed by some lunatic. You never know what a stranger wants when they follow you around and catch up to you.

I cannot possibly believe that George walked up to Trevon with a big smile on his face and a gentleman-like greeting. It didn't happen. You could hear from the call the desperation in his voice like shit was about to go down and a kid died for it.
[/quote]
Again, it boils down to who initiated contact. Zimmerman claims it was Trayvon, the prosecutors claim it was Zimmerman. This is literally the deciding factor of the case.
IF it was Zimmerman who initiated contact, then he probably fucked up (I can't imagine a simple "I'm with the nighborhood watch, why are you here" leading to an altercation and if he said anything different than he is an idiot).
IF it was Trayvon, then look at it from Zimmerman's perspective. There had been tons of burglaries, vandalism, and a shooting; why shouldn't he have feared for his life as well? Your argument here goes both ways depending on what actually happened.


Most people here have decided that Zimmerman was the one who initiated contact and therefore he is the one to blame. At first, there was enough circumstantial evidence to support this but now it really does seem that both stories have an equal shot at being plausible.

Also, before I get bitched out for what I said let me make this clear: I am arguing over whether or not Zimmerman should be found guilty or innocent under Florida's current laws. Stand your ground is a bullshit law but it IS the law in Florida.
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»orangeeyes    11863
I have never heard the part of the story where he was walking back to his car. That doesn't fit with the transcript or anything we're heard up to this point at all whatsoever.

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beetle    1115
[quote name='orangeeyes' timestamp='1354925008' post='3342640']
I have never heard the part of the story where he was walking back to his car. That doesn't fit with the transcript or anything we're heard up to this point at all whatsoever.
[/quote]

Me neither.

And we all agree that Florida laws are bs. And Zimmerman's spamming of 911 kinda hurts him with his obvious racial profiling from those calls. If I called the cops every time I've seen a suspicious black/mexican in my neighborhood I'm sure everyone would call me crazy.
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Laser Cat    5611
[quote name='orangeeyes' timestamp='1354925008' post='3342640']
I have never heard the part of the story where he was walking back to his car. That doesn't fit with the transcript or anything we're heard up to this point at all whatsoever.
[/quote]

It's his account of what happened. From the transcript itself all we know is that he was told to stop following Trayvon to which he replied "okay" and then talked about where he would meet the police officers.

Zimmerman's account:

[spoiler]
[quote]
Zimmerman said he was driving to the grocery store when he spotted Trayvon Martin walking through the neighborhood. Zimmerman's father said that, while his son was not on duty that night as Neighborhood Watch captain, there had been many break-ins and he thought it suspicious that someone he didn't recognize was walking behind the town homes instead of on the street or the sidewalk. Zimmerman therefore called a non-emergency police line to report Martin's behavior and summon police.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-197"][194][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-msnbc29mar-198"][195][/url][/sup] During the call, Zimmerman told the dispatcher that Martin was "coming to check me out."[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-motherjones_transcript-115"][114][/url][/sup] A source to the [i]Orlando Sentinel[/i] said in May that Zimmerman told investigators that at one point Martin circled his vehicle,[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-199"][Note 4][/url][/sup] and he rolled up his window to avoid a confrontation.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-circles-194"][191][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-discovery_2_USAToday-200"][196][/url][/sup]
After telling the police dispatcher that Martin "ran,"[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-MotherJones-201"][197][/url][/sup] Zimmerman left his vehicle to determine his location and ascertain in which direction Martin had fled.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-circles-194"][191][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-GZ_statements_McC-202"][198][/url][/sup] The dispatcher asked if Zimmerman was following Martin, and Zimmerman replied "Yeah." Then the dispatcher said, "OK, we don't need you to do that." Zimmerman replied with "OK" and stated that Martin got away.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-MotherJones-201"][197][/url][/sup] After a discussion about where Zimmerman would meet police, the call ended, and Zimmerman told investigators he was returning to his vehicle when Martin approached him from his left rear and confronted him.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-circles-194"][191][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-Sentinel20120326Zimm-195"][192][/url][/sup] then punched him in the face, knocking him down, and began beating his head against the sidewalk.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-circles-194"][191][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-Sentinel20120326Zimm-195"][192][/url][/sup] Zimmerman said he called out for help while being beaten, and at one point Martin covered his mouth to muffle the screams.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-circles-194"][191][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-Sentinel20120326Zimm-195"][192][/url][/sup] According to Zimmerman's father, during the struggle while Martin was on top of Zimmerman, Martin saw the gun his son was carrying and said something to the effect of "You're gonna die now" or "You're gonna die tonight" and continued to beat Zimmerman.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-Robert_Zimmerman.27s_account_of_events-193"][190][/url][/sup] Zimmerman and Martin struggled over the gun, and Zimmerman shot Martin once in the chest at close range, in [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense"]self-defense[/url].[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-circles-194"][191][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-Sentinel20120326Zimm-195"][192][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-latimes-196"][193][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-203"][Note 5][/url][/sup]

[/quote]
[/spoiler]

Full call transcript:

[spoiler]
[quote]
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] Sanford Police Department. ...
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle. Um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] Okay, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] He looks black.
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] Did you see what he was wearing?
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring...
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] Okay, he's just walking around the area...
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] ...looking at all the houses.
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] Okay...
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] Now he's just staring at me.
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] Okay. You said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] That's the clubhouse... [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Note3"][sup][Note 3, 3rd picture][/sup][/url]
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] That's the clubhouse. Do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] Okay.
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] How old would you say he looks?
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] He's got a button on his shirt. Late teens.
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] Late teens. Okay.
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] Something's wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is.
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] Just let me know if he does anything, okay?
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] How long until you get an officer over here?
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] Yeah, we've got someone on the way. Just let me know if this guy does anything else.
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] Okay. These assholes, they always get away. When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and make a left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse.[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Note3"][sup][Note 3, 3rd picture][/sup][/url]
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] So it's on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] No, you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left...uh, you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. Shit, he's running.
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] He's running? Which way is he running?
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] The back entrance...fucking [disputed/unintelligible]
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] Are you following him?
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] Yeah.
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] Okay, we don't need you to do that.
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] Okay.
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] All right, sir, what is your name?
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] George...He ran.
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] All right, George, what's your last name?
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] Zimmerman.
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] And George, what's the phone number you're calling from?
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] [redacted]
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] All right, George, we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
[b]Zimmerman:[/b]: Yeah.
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] Alright, where you going to meet with them at?
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Note3"][sup][Note 3, 4th picture][/sup][/url] that's my truck...[unintelligible]
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] What address are you parked in front of?
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] I don't know. It's a cut through so I don't know the address.[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Note3"][sup][Note 3, 6th & 7th pictures][/sup][/url]
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] Okay. Do you live in the area?
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] Yeah, I...[unintelligible]
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] What's your apartment number?
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] It's a home. It's 1950,[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Note3"][sup][Note 3, 3rd picture][/sup][/url] Oh, crap. I don't want to give it all out. I don't know where this kid is.
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] Okay. Do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then?
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] Yeah, that's fine.
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] All right, George. I'll let them know to meet you around there okay?
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] Actually, could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at?
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] Okay, yeah. That's no problem.
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] Should I give you my number or you got it?
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] Yeah, I got it [redacted]
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] Yeah, you got it.
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] Okay. No problem. I'll let them know to call you when they're in the area.
[b]Zimmerman:[/b] Thanks.
[b]Dispatcher:[/b] You're welcome.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-motherjones_transcript-115"][114][/url][/sup]

[/quote][/spoiler]
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Laser Cat    5611
[quote name='beetle' timestamp='1354928139' post='3342689']
[quote name='orangeeyes' timestamp='1354925008' post='3342640']
I have never heard the part of the story where he was walking back to his car. That doesn't fit with the transcript or anything we're heard up to this point at all whatsoever.
[/quote]

Me neither.

And we all agree that Florida laws are bs. And Zimmerman's spamming of 911 kinda hurts him with his obvious racial profiling from those calls. If I called the cops every time I've seen a suspicious black/mexican in my neighborhood I'm sure everyone would call me crazy.
[/quote]



lol...
He called them 7 times over 18 months, 5 of which to report suspicious people, and considering he was the neighborhood watch it really isn't "spamming". Furthermore, he NEVER said their race unless specifically asked by the police. During that year alone that had been multiple burglaries, thefts, attempted break ins, and even a fucking shooting; are you really going to tell me that if you were in Zimmerman's shoes you wouldn't have reported someone suspicious looking, at night, that you never saw before, and just three weeks earlier this happened:
[spoiler][quote]
Three weeks prior to the shooting, on February 2, 2012, Zimmerman called police to report a young man peering into the windows of an empty Twin Lakes home. Zimmerman was told a police car was on the way, and he followed protocol, awaiting their arrival. By the time police arrived, the suspect had fled. On February 6, 2012, workers witnessed two young black men lingering in the yard of a Twin Lakes resident around the same time her home was burglarized. A new laptop and some gold jewelry were stolen. The next day police discovered the stolen laptop in the backpack of a young black man, which led to his arrest. Zimmerman identified this young man as the same person he had spotted peering into windows on February 2.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-Francescani425-62"][61][/url][/sup]
[/quote] [/spoiler]
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