Vice Captain Sanada

Is it Sangan or Tour Guide?

155 posts in this topic

Which is the problem card? Which (if either) will be hit by the banlist?

Tour Guide is an instant +1, and the ability to create almost any rank 3 with a normal summon
On the otherhand, TGU floats into Sangan, the super floater. That just adds so much consistency to decks.
We all know this, but is this a problem?

I guess I'm wondering, Is Sangan broken on it's own? Is Tour Guide broken on its own? Or is it the combo of the two that makes it broken?

And ultimately, what would be the best way to balance it?

Tour Guide is clearly very powerful, but if sangan were banned it wouldn't be as versatile as it is now.
but can't we also say
Sangan is clearly very powerful, but if Tour Guide were banned it wouldn't be as versatile as it is now?



I have a gut feeling that konami isn't going to touch tour guide at all, and banning sangan is probably the right way to handle this engine on the next banlist. Regardless, I think it would make sense to pick up a Tour Bus pretty soon. Thoughts?
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I think that is really a huge part of the issue. Things like Tourbus I mean. Remember only a few decks were actually using Sangan pre-tourguide because of the fact that it was actually really slow. Sangan is good it adds consistency but it doesn't do much on its own, Tourguide on the other hand is very powerful on its own.
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Sangan opens up a lot of plays for Rabbit and as it stands is the best target for TGU. If you ban sangan and dont touch TGU then people can just use Tour Bus, while not as good still has its uses like disrupting opposing graveyards and recycling your TGU's, whatever.

Personally I'd rather not TGU touched and would be fine with seeing Sangan banned. He's been a staple forever now and as time goes on the targets for him to grab from the deck just get better and better.
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I'd say it's TGU. I'm not saying Sangan doesn't have it's "Wow you are a cheap faggot" moments, but even without Sangan, it's going to make a Rank 3(Zenmaity shenaigans) for the price of 1 card and force your opponent to stop it or get their shit pushed in.
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It's Tour Guide.
I rather Sangan stay and Tour Guide go. Tour Guide promotes way to many ways to be abused. Who knows what crazy Rank 3 they will produce. If Tour Guide stays then Leviair with Rabbit [u][b]HAS[/b][/u] to go.

We've dealt with Sangan for so many formats that its just a natural part of the game. Tour Guide is out of hand.

Damn you Chris! lol
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people use sangan as an xyz material

that speaks for itself
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[quote name='Gear' timestamp='1341681853' post='3226393']
It's Tour Guide.
I rather Sangan stay and Tour Guide go. Tour Guide promotes way to many ways to be abused. Who knows what crazy Rank 3 they will produce. If Tour Guide stays then Leviair with Rabbit [u][b]HAS[/b][/u] to go.

We've dealt with Sangan for so many formats that its just a natural part of the game. Tour Guide is out of hand.

Damn you Chris! lol
[/quote]
Hanzo'd zzzz
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both
[img]http://whatgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/funny-gifs-seems-legit.gif[/img]
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Sangan is good for reasons other than tour guide
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[quote name='Exiled' timestamp='1341682207' post='3226395']
people use sangan as an xyz material

that speaks for itself
[/quote]

The reason people pull Sangan first and XYZ with it is so that you still have 2 Tour Guide in deck.

So you can make a 2nd 1 card XYZ and not risk the suboptimal draw of Sangan making 3rd copy of Tour Guide dead.

The fact is even without Sangan, cards like Night Assailant or Fabled Kushano could easily fill the void. Night Assailant is standalone monster destruction, and Kushano is LIGHT. It immediately sets up Chaos in one fell swoop.

--------------
One big reason for decks running Sangan is that in games 2 and 3, it lets you grab sided cards like Electric Virus. You literally run 4 Sangans now with Tour Guide, making the TCG far different from the OCG in regards to sidedecking choices.

We've become so spoiled with Tour Guide that we think opening with Sangan in hand or drawing into it is suboptimal. The fact is, a lot of decks would still play Sangan without Tour Guide.
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I look at it like Michael Jordan was amazing and made Pippen into an all star. If you take Jordan away the Sangan would be pretty avg. if you take Pippen away he still had help from Rodman etc.
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Sangan should be banned because it's a card that can become extremely broken and a problem depending on the format. It goes through phases where it doesn't see play so people start to think it's balanced. During the last couple Plant formats and this format it's been one of the best cards in the game just because of the cards it can search. If you draw Sangan in Rabbit or Inzektors your chances of winning skyrocket.

If you ban Sangan and maybe put Tour Guide to 2, the problems here get resolved nicely. Tour Guide is still playable without being splashable in every deck, it would become a niche card.
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Sangan doesn't have the potential to "Normal Summon" Zenmaines or any other powerful Rank 3.
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I think they should just semi-limit Tour Guide to 2.
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[quote name='PJ' timestamp='1341686253' post='3226424']
Sangan doesn't have the potential to "Normal Summon" Zenmaines or any other powerful Rank 3.
[/quote]
No, but it has the potential to search cards that can:

-"Normal Summon" Zenmaines or any other powerful Rank 3
-"Normal Summon" a walking Solemn Judgment, a walking two-shot Divine Wrath, or any other powerful Rank 4
-Shut down your opponent's turn from the hand
-Clear your opponent's field
-Send 3+ cards from your opponents' hand
-Attack for 1900 and draw a card when destroyed
-Discard a card to Special Summon REDMD
-Destroy a card and mill 3

etc.
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I really don't like think TGU should be touched below 2. Using TGU in virtually any deck gives it a strong back bone and so much consistency. I'd hate to see such a good card be banned when Sangan has been a faggot for like 10 formats now.
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[quote name='arroganceclause' timestamp='1341679649' post='3226376']Which is the problem card? Which (if either) will be hit by the banlist?
[/quote]These are two completely different questions. One is a question of banlist theory; the other is an attempt to mind-read Konami. It's a question of what (hypothetically) [i]should happen[/i] as opposed to a question of what[i] is likely to happen[/i].

When looking at if a card deserves to be banned or not, the first question is I always ask myself is, "Has this card ever been used in a fair way?" "Could this card ever be used in a fair way?" With Sangan, the answer to both those questions is yes. Sangan has been around since the near-beginning of time and has never been thought of as "too good" before it was being paired with Tour Guide or Crush Card Virus. Like any tutor, Sangan is only as good as the cards it searches. Tutors with any specific requirements by definition then are never broken, but the cards they search can most certainly be broken. What are the most broken cards that Sangan can search currently? Tour Guide, Rescue Rabbit, and Inzektor Hornet? Does banning Sangan really solve any of those problems though? No, not really. I would argue that all three of the monsters that I just mentioned are horribly designed cards that need to have their power curbed in some way.

With Tour Guide, you have to ask yourself, is a 2500-atk costless monster too overpowered? Maybe. What about a 2100-def costless monster that is very hard to kill? Maybe. An 1800-atk costless monster that can also bring back a LV4 or lower monster that either player has banished? Maybe. Or a 1700-atk costless monster that can drain other Xyz and become 2200 or 2700? Maybe. Or a 3000-atk costless monster with a drawback? Maybe. Or an 1800-atk costless monster that can boost itself and the rest of your team for a potential otk? Maybe. Or a 1500-atk costless monster that special summons a Wind-Up from your deck for value or discarding the majority of your opponent's hand? Maybe, probably even.

But the thing is, Tour Guide isn't just one of those things, [i]it's all of those things stamped on to one card[/i]. If you don't think this is broken, then I don't know what is. The brokeness of Tour Guide is often downplayed by the competitive community because it gives players options, and theoretically, more options = more skill. However, the amount of powerful options on this card makes it so good that even if a player misplays and picks the 2nd best option, it still has potential to take over the game. This card truly is the Rescue Cat of our time. It gives us options, any rank 3 instead of any LV6 synchro (or LV7 when combined with Monk). Cat with Faultroll lets you discard your opponent's hand? Well what do you know, so does Tour Guide + any LV3 special summon (commonly Wind-Up Shark).

The only way to make Tour Guide a "role player" card is to put at 1 (or better yet, 0). As long as at least 2 copies of the card are legal, it will be able to search another copy of itself and instantly be a staple in almost anything. Banning Sangan won't reduce the power level of Tour Guide by any significant amount either. As of now, all Sangan does is get searched by the 1st copy of Tour Guide so the other 2 copies in the deck are live. Sangan then gets detatched and does nothing other than possibly get Monster Reborned (although it's highly unlikely) or combo with Exa-Beetle (only in 1 deck, which has far more broken plays than Exa-Beetle combos). If Sangan gets banned, people will just run 1 Night Assailant, 1 Tour Bus, or even just 2-3 Tour Guide with no other targets.
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I put TGU into the same class as Tengu and Mali before it. When you could use each one multiple times, it was ridiculous. They're designed to work with each other. Sangan's ability to grab a vast majority of important cards, whether defensive techs or power monsters, will only expand. Banning Sangan, is the best solution. TBH, cards like Night Assailant and Fabled Kushano are very underwhelming as Sangan substitutes. You no longer get the option of TGU->Sangan->Set Torrent/activate E-Con. TGU tutors the tutor right now. Take away the tutor, and TGU is nothing more than a 1-time R3.
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Putting tour guide to 2 would do nothing in my opinion. The only conceivable way to make the card bearable in my opinion is to put it to one. This card is far too good for what it is because it is a one card Rank 3 XYZ monster which are unbalanced anyway.
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Putting TGU to 2 definitely does something. Just like putting Tengu to 2 did something and Malicious to 2.
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They are both problem cArds. Sangan should be banned and tour guide should be semi limited.
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[quote name='DemonGodAsura' timestamp='1341693650' post='3226479']
Take away the tutor, and TGU [i]is nothing more than a 1-time R3[/i].
[/quote]

[quote name='Myth' timestamp='1341687349' post='3226435']
Using TGU in virtually any deck gives it a strong back bone and so much consistency. I'd hate to see such a good card be banned
[/quote]

It's kind of sad how you and Myth are rationalizing, think that a generic 1 card Rank 3 that requires no grave setup or any thematic inconsistencies, the benefits of being DARK attribute, etc. is okay.

Before Tour Guide and Rescue Rabbit came around, you had to commit cards, do setup for big monsters, You didn't get 1 card costless DDR or Divine Wrath on a stick.

In the case of Scrap Chimera, Debris Dragon and Junk Synchron, you need grave setup. Not so with Tour Guide and Rescue Rabbit who [u]moreover [/u]thin the deck further, letting you see power cards faster.

The closest thing to 1 card big monsters in the Synchro era was Dragunities and they were themed, needed Ravine, Cards of Consonance setup.

Tour Guide is neither theme-restrictive or requiring setup...
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Waiting for Atem post now.
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[quote name='orangeeyes' timestamp='1341687182' post='3226433']
[quote name='PJ' timestamp='1341686253' post='3226424']
Sangan doesn't have the potential to "Normal Summon" Zenmaines or any other powerful Rank 3.
[/quote]
No, but it has the potential to search cards that can:

-"Normal Summon" Zenmaines or any other powerful Rank 3
-"Normal Summon" a walking Solemn Judgment, a walking two-shot Divine Wrath, or any other powerful Rank 4
-Shut down your opponent's turn from the hand
-Clear your opponent's field
-Send 3+ cards from your opponents' hand
-Attack for 1900 and draw a card when destroyed
-Discard a card to Special Summon REDMD
-Destroy a card and mill 3

etc.
[/quote]

This is the worst argument for the banning of a card. Sarcophagus and D.D. Capsule can search for anything, they are not banworthy. The crux of what makes Sangan broken is the way it lets you search for cards. You can often turn Sangan into an easy plus 1, and then even more when you pull something stupid. You have to separate these two aspects of sangan. One is Sangan's fault and the other is not.

I wouldn't ban Sangan because it can tutor for stupid things, you ban the stupid things.

Personally I think both are ban worthy, with Sangan being less of a concern. Decks running tour guide currently wouldn't hiccup if only Sangan was banned, they would add a Night Assailant very quickly and go about their business.
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[quote name='ThePedanticGentleman' timestamp='1341696180' post='3226493']
[quote name='orangeeyes' timestamp='1341687182' post='3226433']
[quote name='PJ' timestamp='1341686253' post='3226424']
Sangan doesn't have the potential to "Normal Summon" Zenmaines or any other powerful Rank 3.
[/quote]
No, but it has the potential to search cards that can:

-"Normal Summon" Zenmaines or any other powerful Rank 3
-"Normal Summon" a walking Solemn Judgment, a walking two-shot Divine Wrath, or any other powerful Rank 4
-Shut down your opponent's turn from the hand
-Clear your opponent's field
-Send 3+ cards from your opponents' hand
-Attack for 1900 and draw a card when destroyed
-Discard a card to Special Summon REDMD
-Destroy a card and mill 3

etc.
[/quote]

This is the worst argument for the banning of a card. Sarcophagus and D.D. Capsule can search for anything, they are not banworthy. The crux of what makes Sangan broken is the way it lets you search for cards. You can often turn Sangan into an easy plus 1, and then even more when you pull something stupid. You have to separate these two aspects of sangan. One is Sangan's fault and the other is not.

I wouldn't ban Sangan because it can tutor for stupid things, you ban the stupid things.

Personally I think both are ban worthy, with Sangan being less of a concern. Decks running tour guide currently wouldn't hiccup if only Sangan was banned, they would add a Night Assailant very quickly and go about their business.
[/quote]

Wait, are you serious? His argument was not bad at all. Sangan IS banworthy because it has ALWAYS been ran, can search key cards for almost EVERY deck ever, its a floater with enough attack to take out 1/8 of a persons life without being able to be stopped in most cases without taking a minus, and its a card that can basically say at times "You cant destroy me, or else you might get fucked".

Also keep in mind before Tour Guide, the MVP was Mystic Tomato and was fucking played to get your bloody Sangan too.
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