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Haruki

official goat format thread

3799 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

On 3/12/2017 at 10:42 AM, Jazz said:

Playing a pre exarion tournament IRL tomorrow.

 

Wanted to know, what's everyone's opinions on the best goat control list?

 

I have three ideas, starting from perovic's exarion list:

-2 exarion

+2 deko

 

OR

-2 exarion

-1 saku

+2 DDA

+1 Book

 

OR

-2 exarion

-1 saku

+1 DDA
+1 Deko

+1 Book

 

I can't bring myself to main Asura knowing that I'll probably face a bunch of chaos decks. I also don't think it's correct to main 3 goat, despite it being a better protection card in pre exarion, because it's still an inherent minus unless coupled with meta. You don't need three goat to get value out of meta, and if I am continuing to main merchant, I don't think I need 3 goat to make 3 meta consistent.

 

What I've done is kept the Perovic outline and added 2 Dekoichi and a Chaos Sorcerer.  I cut out the Exarions and 1 Morphing Jar (at my skill level I feel like I get more mileage out of Dekoichi + its an earth).  Not enough games to say anything concrete but the extra Sorcerer has come in handy when you can banish a monster and meta for a lvl 6 like Ryu-Senshi.  You can also be a little more liberal with your usage of BLS if need be. 

 

If you're unsure about 3 goats, I think keeping a 3rd in the side will have to do for now.  Reaper seems to be sort of an "in" card right now.  I want to retract my statement on it being an amazing card since again, I haven't really played enough games with it against good players and my skill level has seriously deteriorated in the past year...but having played against it I can tell you that scapegoat answers it incredibly well and it (reaper) is a fairly common card on DB.  In the mean time if you want to play it safe, I would stick with 2 sakuretsu.

 

I'm a big fan of Dekoichi like you are.  It's a consistent, low-variance card which meshes well with the deck.  You get 6 solid flip effect monsters which keeps your opponent guessing.  Your first game matchup against Chaos is also a little better better since you don't have to side it in.

 

Also, why would you consider 1 DDA over 1 DDWL?

 

As for Asura, sometimes it was amazing for me, sometimes not so much.  I think there's definite risk of lowering synergy with premature/call by having 2 Tsukuyomi and 2 Asura Priest in the same deck. 

 

I also made a take-off of your reaper deck which I'd like you to give your thoughts on if DB comes online and I can grab a screenshot.

 

GL with your tournament.

Edited by fat_cat
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This Pre-Exarion list has been working very well for me. It has a better early game than standard goat, with the help of Rota into a quick Don or Blade Knight. In exchange it has a slightly weaker grind game in the long run. Thinking about replacing Apprentice + Old with 2 Dekoichis or 1 Merchant + 1 Dekoichi, and relegate Apprentice + Old into the side deck against Aggro decks.

 

The Side Deck is still WIP. E-Con is there against Berserk Gorillas and against Burn to tribute Lava Golem/Ojama Tokens, and against Gate/Reasoning decks to take their Sorcerer. Probably need something against Empty Jar though.

Goat.PNG

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Thank god somebody finally went ahead and force pre-exarion meta. Now I can actually play goats again and not want to slit my wrists. There was literally no upside to exarion format.

 

Decks were all streamlined (There was one exact best build), no room for any experimentation because he warped the meta so hard. He wasn't even a skillful card to use like BLS is. If you use BLS like a retard you can get screwed. You can't use exarion poorly. Worse case it's a level 4 beater that gets 141'd. Like the worst thing you can have happen to it is leave it in attack while you have to protection and they have set up for an airknight. Which means you lose anyways. Not to mention how setting it in that situation walls off that airknight play anyways. 

 

When a card forces you to run 2/3 copies of sakuretsu you know something's fucky. 

 

On that note, how many people still think running merchants is needed anymore. Merchants were played because they were floating level 1s, for when you needed to TER in a pinch and more often. (Such as to deal with an exarion). With games being slower, due to lack of insane damage pressure, we can start looking towards pure card advantage monsters such as Dekoichi, SPIRIT REAPER (holy shit, the only plus side to exerion format is that this fucking card was unplayable) as well as even mimic lv 1. 

 

I'm really looking to try and test mimic as in conjuction with SWM. Both these cards can kill themselves to give you a dark/light. SWM has a great body (beats over Tribe, no-counter breaker, and walls off airknight in def). However, other than the tribute thing he's a vanilla, which I always feel  bad about playing in a goats deck. Mimic is great for many reasons, but while his effect i sprobably weaker than merchant's in many ways (Can't set up call or prema), he is a dark, which we will have lack of with no exerions. 

 

Also, Big Shield Gardna is a card I'm in LOVE with. He's much akin to a Jar in that, setting him smartly can net a very big bonus. Ripping a NoC from an opponent can be huge and there are many situations you can force a response to a face-down monster to gain knowledge of their hand. Let's say my opponent sets 4 s/t because my heavy in grave. If I set a monster, my opponent has to really think about the possibility of that being a magician. This can force the NoC, or Meta if he really needs to protect his backrow. If he doesn't do this, this can mean he didn't have the response necessary, or didn't feel the need to protect his backrow (maybe he had judgement set). Even if he does NoC, he gets hit with a -1 and loses his answer, and metaing a gardna is ass anyways. All this, including the fact that he walls 1 attack from anything that isn't BLS. While he does have the potential to just be killed for free, if you play him smart, he has big potential for huge mindgames. 

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Pre exarion is a scrub format. It has no redeeming qualities other than the fact that you can't get blown out by double exarion hits + ring.

 

There is no adequate replacement for exarion in the goat control list which leads to randomized monster encounters. I much prefer the rigidity of a goat mirror and knowing exactly what to expect out of 25+ cards. The fact that we have all this shitty tech to choose from does not increase the amount of skill in a single duel.

 

The best fix to exarion format is to up the lifepoints to 10,000 so you can avoid the primary problem posted above. After playing a fair amount of pre exarion I can safely say that I think banning exarion is a net negative.

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Depends on what you're looking for in your goat format games. If you're looking for variety, deck building skill then pre-exerion is better. You could even argue the player who can stay on his toes and navigate through surprise techs better is a stronger player. 

 

Some people want to play "solved formats" where everything is stream lined and games are more about playing through situations better than the other guy, while others look for navigating through uncertainties and being able to pull off bluffs and such better.

 

Not to mention that exarion is so brainless to use. Just summoning him is already a huge threat that requires no real thought. Increasing life points may make him a tad less threatning the first turn he's dropped since his damage pressure won't matter as much. 

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How is exarion any more brainless to use than the following:

 

apprentice - outcome is totally dependent on when you draw it and your opponent's move

don zaloog - pretty much a one for one unless you are lucky enough to have somebody attack it while it's set

big shield - outcome is totally dependent on when you draw it and your opponent's move

ddwl - shitty card that you can't lead with for fear of breaker the magical warrior, usually doesn't hit the GY

dda - nearly as shitty as ddwl because it gets stuffed by sheep

asura - somewhat skillful but causes dead hands in the wrong situation

spirit reaper - pretty brainless and you better hope the opponent doesn't have goat

blade knight - will always suck because good players set sangan/serpent to bait it and TER, dies to tsuk

exiled - shit in the wrong situation, quite redundant with many cards in the deck. only redeeming quality is to increase utility of call/prema early on

 

These are the common replacements I've come across. All of those cards are pretty easy to use outside of setting don zaloog. 

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Show me any goat build and I will explain to you in a 500 word wall of text why if you mirror match'd with that exact deck it is considerably less skillful than a mirror match between standard exarion perovic decks.

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The fact that exarion has such a high degree of utility at any point in the duel is why it is a skillful card. It gives the better play consistency, balance, and outs for the specific situation. It is a strong check on tsuku locks early game. Combined with book, it is a check on meta. It is a check on trinity. The life point blow out is a real problem, but that's probably a better argument for banning Ring or modifying starting LP imo.

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Did you really just say that instead of banning Exarion we should duel each other with 10,000 lifepoints 

 

I really hope to fucking god you were kidding 

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You're justifying the use of a card that (in your opinion, as stated throughout your many various posts) breaks the meta and warrants bans on other cards (Ring of Destruction)/should allow us to break game mechanics by starting with more LP than originally intended. 

 

Can you take a moment to realize how idiotic your argument is? Exarion is a problem card. You said it has amazing versatility and, contradictory to what you said, that therefore means that the card is harder to use incorrectly. If a card can do a million things right, chances are that when you summon the monster you're going to do at least 500,000 things correctly. 

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6 minutes ago, Grimey said:

Did you really just say that instead of banning Exarion we should duel each other with 10,000 lifepoints 

 

I really hope to fucking god you were kidding 

 

Nice retort. You've convinced me that you are a superior duelist.

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37 minutes ago, Jazz said:

Pre exarion is a scrub format. It has no redeeming qualities other than the fact that you can't get blown out by double exarion hits + ring.

 

There is no adequate replacement for exarion in the goat control list which leads to randomized monster encounters. I much prefer the rigidity of a goat mirror and knowing exactly what to expect out of 25+ cards. The fact that we have all this shitty tech to choose from does not increase the amount of skill in a single duel.

 

The best fix to exarion format is to up the lifepoints to 10,000 so you can avoid the primary problem posted above. After playing a fair amount of pre exarion I can safely say that I think banning exarion is a net negative.

Translation: I'm not winning as much in pre-Exarion, so it must be a worse format.

 

The fact that it actually causes you to think about monster lineup deck construction is precisely why it's the superior format. Yugioh players are so lazy and prefer to have their decks build themselves instead of having to actually be forced to make good meta calls.

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I'm fully capable of thinking about deck construciton in pre exarion format lol. Doesn't change the fact that you simply cannot make an build that is as balanced and optimal as in post exarion.

 

I'm not even sure what my win rate is, but I don't really care. I don't like having games decided by whether my opponent opens reaper or lucks into a T1 blade knight when I have no answer to it.

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I mean since Exarion is basically custom format territory, why not instead just introduce a monster to the format that is less situational than reaper/blade knight but less OP than Exarion Universe? Can't think of a great fit for that category right now, but I just do not like playing goats with no-tribute chaos-typed monsters with trample that can only be profitably dealt with by other power cards in the format. I want Scapegoat to actually be a good card in goats again. #MakeGoatsGreatAgain

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do you think jazz would like goats more if reborn tengu was in it

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Reborn Tengu would be pretty interesting actually. Did Kris ever try that in Newgioh testing?

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yeah we tested tengu and it was there for awhile but it got cut

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Now that I think about it, Reborn Tengu is probably broken in Monarchs, so good call there.

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49 minutes ago, ACP said:

that can only be profitably dealt with by other power cards in the format

 

bls

airknight

airknight

exarion

exarion

breaker

tribe

tsuk+noc

tsuk+noc

meta

meta

meta

prema+airknight

call+airknight

prema+exarion

call+exarion

prema+tribe

call+tribe

sakuretsu

sakuretsu

mirror

ring

torrential

 

SMASH'D

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thats what he said, other power cards in the format

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2 minutes ago, Jazz said:

 

bls - power card

airknight - requires a tribute, exarion must be in attack mode

airknight - requires a tribute, exarion must be in attack mode

exarion - not profitable

exarion - not profitable

breaker - power card

tribe - power card, not profitable unless discarding sinister

tsuk+noc - not profitable

tsuk+noc - not profitable

meta - power card

meta - power card

meta - power card

prema+airknight - power card

call+airknight - power card

prema+exarion - power card, not profitable

call+exarion - power card, not profitable

prema+tribe - power card, not profitable unless discarding sinister

call+tribe - power card, not profitable unless discarding sinister

sakuretsu - not profitable

sakuretsu - not profitable

mirror - power card, not profitable unless other monsters

ring - power card, not profitable

torrential - power card, not profitable unless other monsters

 

SMASH'D

Like I said, it cannot be profitably dealt with except by power cards (with the exception of Airknight, who requires a tribute and also requires Exarion to be in attack mode). This was discussed in the treatise, but cards that trade one-for-one with Exarion like Sakuretsu are not "counters", just the same way that (despite Kevin Tewart's claims to the contrary) that Bottomless Trap Hole does not counter Black Luster Soldier. A card like Exarion would become balanced if there was (for example) a light vanilla LV4 monster in the format with 1950 attack, as it would be able to profitably deal with Exarion Universe, while not itself being overpowered. Berserk Gorilla could be used to fill this role, but the problem is that Berserk Gorilla has other problems (mainly its attribute) which prevent it from being played in a standard goat list.

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now i miss vanilla newgioh

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everyone who worked on newgioh thinks that post raging battle (set with baboon and things) was the best 

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I actually think that the very last Newgioh format that I was going to play Kris in shortly before it got shut down (the one with 3 Engraver of the Mark, Wonder Wand, and Hidden Armory) was the most skillful Newgioh variant. It wasn't balanced too well, but the matches themselves had some good depth.

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29 minutes ago, mmf said:

thats what he said, other power cards in the format

 

that's half the damn deck

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