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Haruki

official goat format thread

3789 posts in this topic

12 minutes ago, Spooky386 said:

EDIT: I would certainly love advice and information on updated deck lists, however. The vast majority of lists in the document are from the 2005 era, and are not updated to today's standards. I'm thinking about adding a section for more modern lists, and would love some ideas there. 

Many of the decklists that you posted were from an era that cannot accurately be described as "goat control." Although there were no ban list changes from April 1 2005 to October 1 2005, there was a major ruling change that greatly shifted the meta, and that was the manual battle change ruling that made cards like Tsukuyomi and TER a lot better. I don't remember the precise date when the rulings change was made, but I know that it was not in effect for UK Nationals and beforehand, which is why that you'll see 0 copies of Tsukuyomi among their top8, which would have ludicrious in the actual goat format. Citing these decklists as being part of the "goat format" is misleading, because they were playing in a completely different metagame.

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14 minutes ago, ACP said:

Many of the decklists that you posted were from my era that cannot accurately be described as "goat control." Although there were no ban list changes from April 1 2005 to October 1 2005, there was a major ruling change that greatly shifted the meta, and that was the manual battle change ruling that made cards like Tsukuyomi and TER a lot better. I don't remember the precise date when the rulings change was made, but I know that it was not in effect for UK Nationals for example, which is why that you'll see 0 copies of Tsukuyomi among the top8, which would have ludicrious in the actual goat format. Citing these decklists as being part of the "goat format" is misleading, because they were playing in a completely different metagame.

 

I only really have one deck in the whole document that I would consider Goat Control, and that would be the deck listed as Goat Control from SJC Indy. I didn't mean for the document to be a list of all the variations of the Goat Control deck. More than anything, I wanted to provide a list of all (or nearly all) deck options the card pool allows. It provides context for the format, and showcases some interesting, rogue, silly, or just plain bad strategies as well. 
I see your point that many of the deck lists shown are from a different meta because of the rules change. However, most sources still cite the goat format as the era from April-October 2005, and don't mention the date of the rules change as a limiting factor. If others disagree with me as well, then I may try make some changes to the doc, but I don't think it's out of bounds to list decks that placed during the 2005 era before the rules change. These are in the doc almost strictly for the sake of completion, anyways. I wanted to give as much information/context for the format as possible. I think here, we are simply running into an issue where we have different ideas of what "goat format" means. I do think that this could be at least partly mended by including a section for updated lists. 

Edited by Spooky386
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Kris Perovic (widely considered one of the best goat control players ever) on the "staples" that you listed:

 

so based on your memory, did the competitive goat community of 2005widely consider these cards to be staples: cyber jar, morphing jar, exiled force, magic cylinder
Kristopher Perovic
 
Kristopher
Definitely not cyber jar. Morphing Jar wasn't a staple, but good players knew it was good. Exiled and cylinder saw some play mid format, probably cylinder more, but not staple at all.
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1 minute ago, ACP said:

Kris Perovic (widely considered one of the best goat control players ever) on the "staples" that you listed:

 

so based on your memory, did the competitive goat community of 2005widely consider these cards to be staples: cyber jar, morphing jar, exiled force, magic cylinder
Kristopher Perovic
 
Kristopher
Definitely not cyber jar. Morphing Jar wasn't a staple, but good players knew it was good. Exiled and cylinder saw some play mid format, probably cylinder more, but not staple at all.

 

I know who Kris Perovic is, and I would agree with his response. Again, the reason I said I didn't want to discuss the issue anymore was because I think you are misunderstanding my responses. 

I would love to discuss my previous post, though. 

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Then explain yourself. They weren't considered staples then. They aren't considered staples now. They're not widely used in most good decks. And yet they are on your staples list anyways? Why? You don't just get to make up a list of cards, call them staples, and then cite unknown "sources", "research", and "opinions" to justify it. I asked you before, and I'll ask you again, under what definition do you consider these cards staples? I know you think it's irrelevant, but you can't expect anyone good to give your guide any respect when you have factually incorrect information in it.

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17 minutes ago, Spooky386 said:

 

I only really have one deck in the whole document that I would consider Goat Control, and that would be the deck listed as Goat Control from SJC Indy. I didn't mean for the document to be a list of all the variations of the Goat Control deck. More than anything, I wanted to provide a list of all (or nearly all) deck options the card pool allows. It provides context for the format, and showcases some interesting, rogue, silly, or just plain bad strategies as well. 
I see your point that many of the deck lists shown are from a different meta because of the rules change. However, most sources still cite the goat format as the era from April-October 2005, and don't mention the date of the rules change as a limiting factor. If others disagree with me as well, then I may try make some changes to the doc, but I don't think it's out of bounds to list decks that placed during the 2005 era before the rules change. These are in the doc almost strictly for the sake of completion, anyways. I wanted to give as much information/context for the format as possible. I think here, we are simply running into an issue where we have different ideas of what "goat format" means. I do think that this could be at least partly mended by including a section for updated lists. 

I'll use your own definition of goat format: "Yugioh’s Goat Format gets it’s name from the deck usually agreed upon to be the format’s best: Goat Control. This deck used most of the format’s strongest cards, including Black Luster Soldier, the Holy Trinity (see below), and the titular Scapegoat. Scapegoat was a powerful stall card on it’s own that could hold back many monsters, even Jinzo. However, its true strength was seen when combined with the powerful Metamorphosis card, which allowed the pilot to special summon Thousand-Eyes Restrict and take control of the game in a single move. Combined with Tsukuyomi, the player had an infinite monster removal engine that could single handedly win the game. These interactions made Goat Control the deck to beat, and are the reason the format has the name that it does."

 

By your own definition, pre-ruling change was not goat format. It's fine if you want to include those decklists there for reference, with an asterisk, but listing these as "decks to beat" (for the goat control format) is misleading. If someone is getting into goat format and looking for what decks were good, they should not be looking at these pre-ruling change lists as a reference, because it was a completely different game. Stop focusing so much "what most sources cite" or "if others disagree with you." The actual facts of the format care about neither of these things. If you're making a guide, getting the facts right and not misleading people should be your priority first and foremost.

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That's not my definition of goat format, that's me explaining where the format got its name. If you asked what the goat format was, I'd tell you it was the April 2005 - October 2005 ban list era of Yugioh (without exarion, which is it's own bucket of worms that I'd rather not open). 

I definitely see your point on the decks to beat section. I initially created that section based on the placings I saw on Metagame and Pojo. If a deck would not currently be seen as competitive, I can see why it should be removed from the list. In your opinion, then, what are the current, say, top three decks of the format? I know first and foremost that the general cookie cutter goat control would be #1, but that's not the only thing players will try and pilot. Any opinions on what else should be listed? 

Edited by Spooky386
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Currently the top two decks are goat control variants (featuring 2-3 metamorphosis and 2 tsukuyomi) and Chaos (typically 2-3 chaos sorcerer, flip effects, and often Thunder Dragon). Now these types of Chaos decks were not at all played in 2005, and I would argue that they are overrated even today, but there is no denying how popular they are. See the last page for example, where Jazz even claimed that they are currently more popular than Goat control. It would be hard to say what the 3rd best deck is; that would be purely opinion.

 

There is actually a lot of variation among Goat control lists, and I wouldn't classify one of them as being the standard cookie cutter list. So it would definitely be good to list a lot of the possible variants. Some play Blade Knight, others play Asura Priest. Some play Dekoicki, others play Mystic Tomato or occasionally the Spy/Guard package. Magical Merchant sees a lot of play in general, but some people will refrain from playing it, or only play 1 copy. Some lists play Morphing Jar, some don't. Some play Sakuretsu Armor, other people play Dust Tornado. Some lists even play Creature Swap.

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3 minutes ago, ACP said:

Currently the top two decks are goat control variants (featuring 2-3 metamorphosis and 2 tsukuyomi) and Chaos (typically 2-3 chaos sorcerer, flip effects, and often Thunder Dragon). Now these types of Chaos decks were not at all played in 2005, and I would argue that they are overrated even today, but there is no denying how popular they are. See the last page for example, where Jazz even claimed that they are more popular than Goat control. It would be hard to say what the 3rd best deck is; that would be purely opinion.

 

There is actually a lot of variation among Goat control lists, and I wouldn't classify one of them as being the standard cookie cutter list. So it would definitely be good to list a lot of the possible variants. Some play Blade Knight, others play Asura Priest. Some play Dekoicki, others play Mystic Tomato or occasionally the Spy/Guard package. Magical Merchant sees a lot of play in general, but some people will refrain from playing it, or only play 1 copy. Some lists play Morphing Jar, some don't. Some play Sakuretsu Armor, other people play Dust Tornado. Some lists even play Creature Swap.


I have not looked at a "Modern" goat control list since I last posted in these forums, and I'm sure the meta has shifted. When was the last Goat Format tournament? I know this site used to host them on DN. Would it be right to take lists from the top 8 of the most recent event? What if the community worked to create a list of the three or so most popular variants? Another possibility would just be to list a couple, and then show all the cards that people might use in some number. 

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We haven't done any goat format tournaments in awhile. DN being down certainly didn't help matters there. All of the past goat format tournaments that we did were with Exarion goats, and it's not until recently that people have been more in favor of Exarionless (and even then, it's still highly debated). I'm sure there are some people here who would be willing to explain the skeleton of a goat deck and explain why certain variants are more popular than others. Frankly, I don't have the time to make such an exhaustive list right now.

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4 minutes ago, ACP said:

We haven't done any goat format tournaments in awhile. DN being down certainly didn't help matters there. All of the past goat format tournaments that we did were with Exarion goats, and it's not until recently that people have been more in favor of Exarionless (and even then, it's still highly debated). I'm sure there are some people here who would be willing to explain the skeleton of a goat deck and explain why certain variants are more popular than others. Frankly, I don't have the time to make such an exhaustive list right now.

 

Makes sense. I'm sure with Duelingbook being released recently more tournaments will happen eventually. If you or anyone else want's to post their own list, or just example lists, I can work off of that for now. I'll change the decks to beat section as soon as I can find some suitable lists. 

Edited by Spooky386
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ever since i've started playing again i've been seeing a huge upswing in the usage of Thunder Dragon. anyone else notice this? it's been one of my favorite cards in the format for a few years now so i'm definitely a proponent of it being used more, but i didn't expect to see so much of it for sure. why do you guys think so many more people are playing it?

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8 minutes ago, 2k16! said:

ever since i've started playing again i've been seeing a huge upswing in the usage of Thunder Dragon. anyone else notice this? it's been one of my favorite cards in the format for a few years now so i'm definitely a proponent of it being used more, but i didn't expect to see so much of it for sure. why do you guys think so many more people are playing it?

Because if you have your heart set on playing 3 Chaos Sorcerer, Thunder Dragon is almost mandatory as well. A lot of people prefer to play Chaos control over Goat control because, like I said on the previous couple of pages, it's a much easier deck for newer players to learn.

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ya i usually play sorc chaos because dropping chaos monsters just feels so good, but i run it in some other decks too like lacooda control, it's a very versatile card IMO, gives you insurance against duo and reaper, makes graceful absurdly strong, good meta fodder in a pinch if you want to bring out balter, good discards for stuff like raigeki break too (but i only run Raigeki Break in those triple solemn control decks), breaks TER if you want to go aggro, slightly deck thins, whatever, i definitely think it's underrated in general

 

and i've played a few games vs people who discard thunder dragons and never see chaos sorcs either

Edited by 2k16!
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i swear if i play one more person on duelingbook who sets their hand up as 2 thunder dragons and sinister im gonna fly to their house and vomit on them

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I'm so surprised at how that whole convo unfolded with ACP and Spooky. Props to both of you. If the whole forums where like this, namely the modern meta discussion threads this website would be of a much high quality...

 

I feel like we've discussed Thunder Dragon at least on 3 separate occasions in this thread. All with the same points being used. Yes TD has many applications, yet the biggest problem is that it's only useful in bad Choas Turbo decks and other degenerate lists that nobody worth their salt should be piloting. Second, while many of your examples are stretches (good meta fodder breaks TER) and should literally never be happening. (These are situations where literally another good card of the format would probably be more useful. If you have to tribute summon dragon or CoTH it or some shit to meta for a fucking balter, presumably to kill a naked MoF or something then I'd be very worried about how well you're doing in that game.) 


But anyways, beyond those few situations, including Light fodder for Chaos cards, the dragon just sits in your hand doing absolutely nothing. You're pretty much playing glorified foolish burial until those rare situations happen. Sure you get 2 cards in grave instead, but it still isn't worth that -1 you're getting. 

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3 minutes ago, Mascis said:

i swear if i play one more person on duelingbook who sets their hand up as 2 thunder dragons and sinister im gonna fly to their house and vomit on them

Can you set up your hand before the game or something??

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do you know what thunder dragon does? have you read the card called sangan?

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Yeah, you discard a Thunder Dragon to grab two more Thunder Dragons from your deck. (Then your deck is shuffled). Then you activate Polymerization and use those dragons and tribute to summon Twin-Headed Thunder Dragon. 

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Just now, SageRhapsody said:

Yeah, you discard a Thunder Dragon to grab two more Thunder Dragons from your deck. (Then your deck is shuffled). Then you activate Polymerization and use those dragons and tribute to summon Twin-Headed Thunder Dragon.


The correct response. It's the best deck in the format! 

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19 minutes ago, Mascis said:

i swear if i play one more person on duelingbook who sets their hand up as 2 thunder dragons and sinister im gonna fly to their house and vomit on them

guilty of this in every game

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6 minutes ago, SageRhapsody said:

Yeah, you discard a Thunder Dragon to grab two more Thunder Dragons from your deck. (Then your deck is shuffled). Then you activate Polymerization and use those dragons and tribute to summon Twin-Headed Thunder Dragon. 

i'll punt u

 

Just now, 2k16! said:

guilty of this in every game

i just are a ton of Chinese food.  hope you enjoy it regurgitated on your lap

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I thought the problem with Thunder Dragon is that it's a slow card that people use in decks that are supposed to be 'fast'. You get a quick light, but it will take too long to draw into Charity/Raigeki Break to capitalize on the advantage gained, so it's just like Foolish Burial'ing a light which is bad. In slow builds it could be better, however, now you have to 'survive' with -1 in hand until it becomes live, and the upside of being able to play a card like Raigeki Break once doesn't seem as powerful as, say, holding Metamorphosis until you draw a LV1. If there was a good way to capitalize on it it would be better, but right now it seems to come down to "making your Graceful Charity better while making their Delinquent Duo worse" most of the time, I don't think Raigeki Break + Thunder Dragon is powerful enough to warrant playing them since both kind of suck when you draw them individually. 

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41 minutes ago, vig=scum said:

I thought the problem with Thunder Dragon is that it's a slow card that people use in decks that are supposed to be 'fast'. You get a quick light, but it will take too long to draw into Charity/Raigeki Break to capitalize on the advantage gained, so it's just like Foolish Burial'ing a light which is bad. In slow builds it could be better, however, now you have to 'survive' with -1 in hand until it becomes live, and the upside of being able to play a card like Raigeki Break once doesn't seem as powerful as, say, holding Metamorphosis until you draw a LV1. If there was a good way to capitalize on it it would be better, but right now it seems to come down to "making your Graceful Charity better while making their Delinquent Duo worse" most of the time, I don't think Raigeki Break + Thunder Dragon is powerful enough to warrant playing them since both kind of suck when you draw them individually. 

for turbo decks you instantly pull 3 cards out of your deck when you draw it which increases your odds to draw gas that's going to speed you up in the long run, the main allure to it is thinning the deck and the interactions with various power cards is a plus that just makes it super good. free lights too. card destruction on thunder dragons + sinister or assailant is just bonkers

 

for slower decks, stabilization is pretty easy in this format so if i see thunder dragon i'm almost always going to have a positive use for it in the duel. if they have a great zoo start or open airknight or bls and i'm sitting there dead, it sucks to have it, yeah.

 

i don't play raigeki break in chaos turbo or chaos control for the reasons you mentioned, i find it awkward a lot of the time, i definitely only play it in super control decks where you have to protect one card to win or stop prems/calls on powerful monsters at all costs. i don't think raigeki break is a staple next to thunder dragon at all

Edited by 2k16!
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1 hour ago, vig=scum said:

I thought the problem with Thunder Dragon is that it's a slow card that people use in decks that are supposed to be 'fast'. You get a quick light, but it will take too long to draw into Charity/Raigeki Break to capitalize on the advantage gained, so it's just like Foolish Burial'ing a light which is bad. In slow builds it could be better, however, now you have to 'survive' with -1 in hand until it becomes live, and the upside of being able to play a card like Raigeki Break once doesn't seem as powerful as, say, holding Metamorphosis until you draw a LV1. If there was a good way to capitalize on it it would be better, but right now it seems to come down to "making your Graceful Charity better while making their Delinquent Duo worse" most of the time, I don't think Raigeki Break + Thunder Dragon is powerful enough to warrant playing them since both kind of suck when you draw them individually. 

 

You could say that the win condition of these "Chaos turbo" variants is to draw Graceful Charity. In addition to Thunder Dragon thinning the deck, they also tend to run 3 copies of Dekoichi and 3 copies of Faith, which thin the deck even further when either card is inevitably banished by Nobleman of Crossout. They invariably run Pot of Greed and Card Destruction (AKA Graceful Charity Lite) which helps them get to Graceful even faster. 

 

The decks are incredibly simple to play and incredibly simple to play against. Extremely annoying from my perspective. But Dustshoot and Creature Swap absolutely crush them. You either steal or send back their flip effects, then they have a dead hand of Chaos monsters and Thunder Dragons while you run away with the game. Works every time.

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