Haruki

The Official Goat Format Thread (April 2005 Forbidden and Limited Lists) [Sets Until TLM]

4072 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, OD Superman said:


It's not enough to be wrong though, so I'm also going to try to find out why I was wrong and get back to you guys. Because I'm definitely not the only person who thought this way, and if this really worked as the link says, I feel like it would've had a much bigger impact throughout the 2005/2006 era. 


Is it probable that like Trap Dustshoot and Magical Merchant, Thunder Dragon was seen as underwhelming at the time, and thus due attention may not have been focused on it? If so, it would be easy to see how a misconception would go unchecked if never put under the microscope.

I thought I recalled Thunder Dragon working in "up to 0"/"fail to find" fashion; a former friend and I were judges back then and we referred to RONIN religiously to manage our playgroup. I asked earlier ITT because, as you said, memory ain't all that, and I had a doubt. 

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6 hours ago, TheAntiAntimetaAzn said:

Was the card sent to the bottom by Diamond Dude supposed to go to the bottom after shuffling? This is under the assumption that the shuffle was legal.

Asking because some Goat Format Empty Jar decks do play Thunder Dragon and A Feather of the Phoenix, and if we do decide to be super-authentic about how we play goats, I'd like to have a consensus on this.

There is a surprising amount of times this could be relavant tbh. Versus PWWB or LJM as well.

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I just went over the rulings for each cards and found this:

 

May 2008 (and every year before that):
- RotA, SDM, SWM and Thunder Dragon could activate their effects without "targets".

- Agent of Creation Venus couldn't.

- Toon Table had no ruling.

https://web.archive.org/web/20080521053205/http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/yugioh/en/gameplay/faqs/cardfaqs/default.aspx?first=P&last=R

 

 

REINFORCEMENT OF THE ARMY
You can activate this card even if you have no Level 4 or lower Warrior-Type monsters remaining in your Deck, but you must let your opponent see your Deck to confirm. Shuffle your Deck afterwards.

SKILLED DARK MAGICIAN
If there is no "Dark Magician" in your hand/Deck/Graveyard you can still activate this effect but your opponent can verify the contents to make certain, and then the effect disappears.

SKILLED WHITE MAGICIAN
If there is no "Buster Blader" in your hand/Deck/Graveyard you can still activate this effect but your opponent can verify the contents to make certain, and then the effect disappears.

THUNDER DRAGON
You can discard "Thunder Dragon" to activate its effect even if you have 2 "Thunder Dragon" already in your Graveyard.


THE AGENT OF CREATION - VENUS
You cannot activate "The Agent of Creation - Venus"' effect if there are no "Mystical Shine Balls" in your hand or Deck.

TOON TABLE OF CONTENTS
No ruling.

 

 

June 2008: all these cards had to have "targets" to activate their effects.

https://web.archive.org/web/20080621084257/http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/yugioh/en/gameplay/faqs/cardfaqs/default.aspx?first=P&last=R

 

 

REINFORCEMENT OF THE ARMY
You cannot activate "Reinforcement of the Army" if you do not have any Level 4 or lower Warrior-Type monsters remaining in your Deck.

SKILLED DARK MAGICIAN
If there are no "Dark Magician" in your hand, Deck, and Graveyard, you cannot activate "Skilled Dark Magician's" effect to Special Summon a "Dark Magician".

SKILLED WHITE MAGICIAN
If there are no "Buster Blader" in your hand, Deck, and Graveyard, you cannot activate "Skilled White Magician's" effect that Special Summons "Buster Blader".

THUNDER DRAGON
You cannot discard "Thunder Dragon" to activate its effect if you do not have any "Thunder Dragon" in your Deck.

THE AGENT OF CREATION - VENUS
You cannot activate "The Agent of Creation - Venus"' effect if there are no "Mystical Shine Balls" in your hand or Deck.

TOON TABLE OF CONTENTS
You cannot activate "Toon Table of Contents" if you do not have any "Toon" Cards, or "Manga Ryu-Ran", in your Deck.

 

 

Now, how do we play Toon Table of Contents in Goat Format? Like RotA or like Agent of Creation Venus ?

Edited by Ynusgridorh
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The reason that Venus couldn't activate its effect without Shine Balls in the deck is because they didn't want Venus+Black Pendant+Reversal Quiz to be a 3-card FTK. It was the exception to the rule. Silly, I know, but that's how they did rulings back then. Recall that the rules for optional trigger events were literally invented to stop Archfiend of Gilfer+Woodland Sprite from being lethal.


With Toon Table, you can activate it without any Toons in the deck, just like RotA.

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For those that are familiar with the "fail to find" mechanic in MTG, it works the same way, with one exception: that your opponent gets to check your deck to confirm that you had nothing to get. The deck is still shuffled, even if the top or bottom card of the deck was manipulated by a previous effect.

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This is silly, did/do UDE/konami even know how their own game works or do they just let the head judges decide to rule whatever they want? 

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It was sort of like Konami told UDE how 90% of the game worked and said "meh you guys can figure out the other 10% for yourselves" and then would occasionally chime in years later to be like "no, you're doing it wrong." In fact, the game still works this way. There are several rulings that are different TCG-side, but they end up staying that way until Konami gets around to telling us to correct them.

 

You kids these days take too much shit for granted. Particularly before the days of PSCT, Yugioh judging was fucking complicated.

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On 11/19/2016 at 3:40 PM, ACP said:

In regards to Skilled Dark and Skilled White Magician, a rule that most people don't know is that in 2005 you could activate search effects and then fail to find (this wasn't changed until mid-2008). The application here is that if you have a dark in your grave but no light and a Skilled White Magician in play with 3 spell counters, you can tribute it for its ability to special summon a Buster Blader, fail to find one, and then banish your dark+SWM to summon BLS. It'll only come up every 1/1000 games, but it'll win your games that you might have otherwise lost.

 

Strongly dispute the bolded. Requires 3 conditions:

1. No other LIGHTs in the GY.

2. BLS is game that turn, and you would lose the game if you do not summon BLS that turn.

3. You can activate 3 spells, and still have game.

 

Rough estimates of each respective probability: 1/10th, 1/30th, 1/100th. So this will win you 4 in 100,000 games if you round up. Not worth arguing about.

Edited by Jazz
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16 hours ago, Human Tetherball said:


Is it probable that like Trap Dustshoot and Magical Merchant, Thunder Dragon was seen as underwhelming at the time, and thus due attention may not have been focused on it? If so, it would be easy to see how a misconception would go unchecked if never put under the microscope.
 

 

Yes. Nobody seriously played Thunder Dragon, therefore it was not talked about.

 

People took things like the RotA shuffling super casually anyway. This rarely ever came up. The Breaker ring for 1600 only did though, I'm not letting that one go. It was always 1600.

 

Judges were also extremely inconsistent from one event to another. Kris literally could have played events under different rules from Allen.

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I miss this format. A part of me died the day we lost DN.

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On 11/21/2016 at 5:17 PM, Jazz said:

I miss this format. A part of me died the day we lost DN.

Well there are some promising alternatives cropping up. If you're a part of the Goat Format Discord server that @Ynusgridorh setup you can see some of the progress that's been made in adding Goat Format and manual play to YGOPro Salvation. Dueling Book is also supposedly coming out soon but Ynus knows more about that than I do. 

 

Regardless, there's still a community of people who play. Once we have a good alternative to DN I think the format will kick back up. Right now it's tough to discuss Goat Format considering no one is really playing it outside of a casual setting or local tourneys that often have vastly different metagames to what we see online.

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I saw the Zaborg vs. Airknight argument going on in @Goins' deck thread but I wanted to comment here to bring it back to the main thread. As a newcomer, it seems like one of those card debates that has been going on for awhile. The question was: which one fits better into the "one-tribute LIGHT slot" in a standard goat build better, in particular for the goat mirror.

I'll summarize the points raised by @Jazz and @mmf:

ZABORG:
strengths: can destroy any monster without interacting with the opponent's backrow or using the battle phase, won't be run over by beatsticks.
weaknesses: one-time use, Tsukuyomi/Book of Moon, mediocre Premature/CotH target, impeded by Scapegoat, needs you to have a monster in play beforehand.

copies of cards that screw it: 2x Tsukuyomi, 2x Book of Moon, 2x Scapegoat
copies of cards it screws: 2x Exarion, 2x Magician of Faith, 2x Magical Merchant

win conditions answered: situational responses to BLS, TER, Magician of Faith

AIRKNIGHT:
strengths: draws a card every turn it's alive via the battle phase*, pierces tokens/FLIPs, not killed by Tsukuyomi, good Premature/CotH target
weaknesses: Sakuretsu Armor, can't interact with TER, Book of Moon, walled by Exarion.

copies of cards that screw it: 2x Sakuretsu, 1x Mirror Force, 2x Exarion  
copies of cards that it screws: 2x Scapegoat, 2x Magician of Faith, 2x Magical Merchant
win conditions answered: can't do anything to BLS or TER ever, punishes Magician of Faith, *is itself a win condition.

Generally, AK is good when you have tempo/board control and Zaborg requires you to have board presence but can pivot you into tempo from a weak board vs. a strong enemy board.

Which leads me to the following thoughts:
It looks like Zaborg is roundabout way to play Exiled Force and Airknight is a unique mixture of effects.
If you need more removal, Exiled is easier to play than Zaborg and can be recycled and searched. You may be running both.
If you decide to cut down on Dust Tornados, Zaborg is likely to give you more mileage than Airknight since the backrow won't stop it from going off.
If you run 3x Exarion, you may get more mileage out of Zaborg, since sheep tokens aren't going to be as much of a nuisance.

How'd I do?

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5 minutes ago, Human Tetherball said:


AIRKNIGHT:
strengths: draws a card every turn it's alive via the battle phase*, pierces tokens/FLIPs, not killed by Tsukuyomi, good Premature/CotH target
weaknesses: Sakuretsu Armor, can't interact with TER, Book of Moon, walled by Exarion.

copies of cards that screw it: 2x Sakuretsu, 1x Mirror Force, 2x Exarion  
copies of cards that it screws: 2x Scapegoat, 2x Magician of Faith, 2x Magical Merchant
win conditions answered: can't do anything to BLS or TER ever, punishes Magician of Faith, *is itself a win condition.
 

 

I have issues with the bolded. (1) Defensive traps don't really screw over attackers, they are something you have to work through the win the game. Ideally you would like to work through them by applying pressure with cards you invest fewer resources in than Airknight, but you don't necessarily have to invest that many resources into Airknight anyway (if you tribute a floater or use prema/call). (2) Yes, Exarion walls it in defense mode, but Airknight can also run over attack mode Exarions, which are more common, for a +2. So at best the Exarion/Airknight dynamic is a net neutral. (3) You failed to mention the number one card that screws over Airknight: Snatch Steal.

 

5 minutes ago, Human Tetherball said:


Generally, AK is good when you have tempo/board control and Zaborg requires you to have board presence but can pivot you into tempo from a weak board vs. a strong enemy board.
 

 

I have a big issue with this as well. This is too general, a little inaccurate, and arguably a reversed way of thinking about the two cards. Airknight can be as much of a player in comebacks/swing plays as Zaborg--for example the attacking over Exarion scenario that nets you a +2. You don't need tempo/control in order to play Airknight, you simply need to be good at knowing when and how to play your Airknights. Zaborg on the other hand demands that you are up on the summon in order to get any mileage out of its effect. For example, you had a set Merchant, your opponent (stupidly I might add) responds by setting a Merchant, and on your turn you flip+trib for Zaborg to get the +1. Zaborg doesn't create the tempo, it simply capitalizes on the tempo you already have from being up on the summon.

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25 minutes ago, Human Tetherball said:

 The question was: which one fits better into the "one-tribute LIGHT slot" in a standard goat build better, in particular for the goat mirror.

 

Also this is not even the question. Airknight is quite obviously better in the Goat mirror, but the question is: how much better is Airknight in the Goat mirror than Zaborg in the other matchups?

 

Edit: rephrased the question in mathematical terms:

Is the +EV of Airknight vs Goats > the supposed +EV of Zaborg vs other matchups?

 

Side bar: Airknight is also better against Chaos Turbo, Chaos Hybrids, and Chaos Recruiter

 

Overall I like your post, because it's prompting discussion, but yeah, I have some strong opinions on Airknight and I've never seen any particularly good arguments for Zaborg other than it's easy to play because you don't have to think about when it's the right time to play it.

 

Edited by Jazz
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Also more cards that screw over Zaborg:

Sangan, Sinister Serpent

 

And delete Book of Moon from your screws over Zaborg list. It doesn't.

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In Exarionless goats, I think Airknight is clearly the better card. The only real debate is which is better in the Exarion meta. I think as the Exarion meta has evolved, Airknight has become less good. Scapegoats are less common, and Exarions and Berserk Gorillas are more common. Zaborg however is not particularly good. 1000 defense is a huge liability. The potential payoff to successfully tribute-summoning the card is not all that high. Zaborg doesn't allow you to run away with the game the way that Airknight does. A well-timed Airknight will win you games in certain matchups.

 

I think people are thinking way too inside the box here, and what's really worth discussing is whether we should be running tribute monsters at all. There's no law that says that if you cut Airknight from your list, you need to replace it with another tribute monster. Exarion goats is way faster-paced than it used to be, and having a plethora of early-game options has a lot more value than it used to. It's often not the case that we can afford to wait 5 turns to set up a good Airknight, because we will have already lost the game by then.

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4 minutes ago, ACP said:

 

I think people are thinking way too inside the box here, and what's really worth discussing is whether we should be running tribute monsters at all. There's no law that says that if you cut Airknight from your list, you need to replace it with another tribute monster. Exarion goats is way faster-paced than it used to be, and having a plethora of early-game options has a lot more value than it used to. It's often not the case that we can afford to wait 5 turns to set up a good Airknight, because we will have already lost the game by then.

 

Yes! This is the most correct thing someone else has posted on this topic so far.

 

The problem however lies in what do we replace Airknight with? I think we almost certainly need to replace it with a LIGHT though. The options are few. Also, Airknight should almost certainly be placed in the side for Goat builds.

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DDWL is a possibility, as I still think the card is underrated by the community.  As silly as it sounds, even Shining Angel is worth discussing. It searches DDWL, but we can also ram it into something to grab a LV1 for an easy meta target, or search faith for Tsuku/Book combos. It also gives as an edge against many of the chaos decks that run multiple dekoichis.

 

(And yeah if I didn't main it of course I would side it)

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What do you think of a build with 3 merchant 3 faith 3 tsuk, no tributes no prem/call? Would probably lose on aggression but maybe that can be solved by playing certain spells. 

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Looks like I can't edit my post? Otherwise would. Thanks for the corrections @Jazz, they are duly noted.  I was Not Even Wrong/fractally wrong about the whole conversation. [Editing this post while I still can: on board with consensus that Zaborg is trash]

Following the topic shift: 
Thunder Dragon is a tribute outlet, level 5 Meta target, LIGHT, deckthinning device, just saying.  I just built this in Percy and it looks terrible, nevermind. At that rate just start tossing in Sorcerers, etc.

Moving away from tribute monsters changes the way Snatch and TER are played in goats since you can't just tribute summon to get rid of them; you're more likely to pick juicier targets and not grab any and all f/ds with TER until you have Tsuky in hand. If TER is a less effective f/d monster remover, something will need to bridge that gap. Re: Tsuky, Sangan becomes more important, would Tomato become relevant? ...while we're on the topic of Shining Angel-into-stuff.

I feel like @mark is onto something with tripling up on the good stuff, since NoC in a way is less painful if you get to thin 2 cards rather than 1. Increases the consistency with which you have access to TER without putting more copies of Scapegoat in. If I had to pick one of three you mentioned to go up to three on, though, I think I'd pick MoF over Merchant and Tsuky.

DDWL is only worse than DDA when trying to run over TIV, if DDA is a great cold open DDWL is even better; I'm all for her.
Blade Knight is actually pretty good in the early game  since its FLIP negation will probably be relevant. I know I'm too much into BK but I feel I'd be remiss not to mention it.

Edited by Human Tetherball
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3 hours ago, Human Tetherball said:

ZABORG:
strengths: can destroy any monster without interacting with the opponent's backrow or using the battle phase, won't be run over by beatsticks.
weaknesses: one-time use, Tsukuyomi/Book of Moon, mediocre Premature/CotH target, impeded by Scapegoat, needs you to have a monster in play beforehand.

copies of cards that screw it: 2x Tsukuyomi, 2x Book of Moon, 2x Scapegoat
copies of cards it screws: 2x Exarion, 2x Magician of Faith, 2x Magical Merchant

win conditions answered: situational responses to BLS, TER, Magician of Faith

AIRKNIGHT:
strengths: draws a card every turn it's alive via the battle phase*, pierces tokens/FLIPs, not killed by Tsukuyomi, good Premature/CotH target
weaknesses: Sakuretsu Armor, can't interact with TER, Book of Moon, walled by Exarion.

copies of cards that screw it: 2x Sakuretsu, 1x Mirror Force, 2x Exarion  
copies of cards that it screws: 2x Scapegoat, 2x Magician of Faith, 2x Magical Merchant
win conditions answered: can't do anything to BLS or TER ever, punishes Magician of Faith, *is itself a win condition.

 


I used to side Zaborg until I realized how bad it was. Tribute monsters that only get their effects when tribute summoned are not worth playing unless you're using a deck that can tribute your opponent's monsters such as Monarch (note that Zaborg isn't even good in Monarch).

 

The best thing about a tribute is that you can discard and revive it with Premature or Call to avoid going -1. Airknight is actually one of the best cards to discard for Duo, Graceful and Tribe since it turns Premature and Call into win conditions. Zaborg, on the other hand, doesn't just make Premature and Call bad, it forces you to run these cards in order to keep it live. That's a double liability.

 

Zaborg's drawbacks outweigh its benefits. Being able to summon it means you're already ahead on summon and are already in a good spot. Even when Zaborg is successfully summoned, it doesn't stay long enough on the field to apply any pressure and get walled by everything. It pays for itself on summon but so does Airknight most of the time, and Airknight doesn't even need to pay for itself when summoned from the grave.

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My main issue with Thunder Dragon in goats is what are you trying to discard it for? Raigeki Break seems as gimmick as Gearfried/Blast with Chain, Card Destruction seems bad: you can't discard certain cards, and it's not even a + when resolved, yes Thunder Dragon is good for Graceful/opposing Duo when you don't have Sinister Serpent but other than that it seems like it's 'just a light'. 

Snatch/TER problem can be solved by adding BoM/Tsuk maybe? 

Yeah DDWL is definitely better than DDA because that's not even a light and it doesn't deal with sangan and stuff. My problem with DDWL as a light is pretty obvious though: I can't think of a scenario where you get the most out of DDWL without banishing it, except for walking into TT/MForce/Sakuretsu etc. maybe? 

I also don't really understand the 'Zaborg means you need to be ahead on the summon' kind of argument, because I'd say that could be said for any tribute monsters, and Airknight+Graceful Charity+Prem/Coth is powerful but not common at all. It also means that in that scenario you could prem/coth sangan or any other monster, then tribute it for Zaborg, or whatever tribute monster we're talking about. So can someone mention me a scenario where Airknight can be played over Zaborg? Or does it mean that your opponent needs a monster for Zaborg to be effective, while in that case you could say your opponent needs an open board for Airknight to be effective: I don't really get the point. I thought Airknight was better because it nets you a draw, and still forces your opponent to kill it or lose the game, while Zaborg gets you the destruction, but after that your opponent can just leave it for a while without getting snowballed on. The Prem/Coth is just a bonus I think, how are you guys getting Airknight in the graveyard so quickly to begin with? Must be nice opponent always opening Duo or something. I also feel like the use of cards such as Premature, Coth and Tribute monsters should be discussed as a whole rather than isolating each card and comparing it to others. 

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1 hour ago, mark said:


...It also means that in that scenario you could prem/coth sangan or any other monster, then tribute it for Zaborg, or whatever tribute monster we're talking about. So can someone mention me a scenario where Airknight can be played over Zaborg? ... Prem/Coth is just a bonus I think, how are you guys getting Airknight in the graveyard so quickly to begin with? Must be nice opponent always opening Duo or something. I also feel like the use of cards such as Premature, Coth and Tribute monsters should be discussed as a whole rather than isolating each card and comparing it to others. 


An Airknight, alone in the grave, makes Premature/CotH better without using up your normal summon. If Zaborg doesn't make your two revival cards as good as AK or Mefist, or Jinzo or HorusLv6 do, I think that's fair grounds for comparison. In order to SS into a tribute summon for Zaborg which is the only way to use him really, you need: another creature in grave, a Zaborg in hand, and an unused normal summon. It's slightly harder to do but doesn't make your revival cards anything but proxies for Ultimate Offering--this is true for any revival trib fodder but it is less painful if that trib has the versatility to not be summoned that way in other games. It's why Dark Ruler Ha Des isn't used. That Zaborg is a 2400 vanilla upon revival is underwhelming and makes that line of play unrewarding where it otherwise could be.

The dump-and-revive thing isn't all that hard to do: Tribe, enemy Duo, and Graceful are staple discard outlets (as @Ynusgridorh mentioned); others exist that aren't as slow as Raigeki Break/PWWB, like Lightning Vortex. If there are three ways to pull something off within one game it's not all that unlikely. Synergy with staple cards is not just a bonus, but a deliberate card choice.

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True but in order for the AK to be useful, you need to get an attack through, meaning no TER/def exarion/any BoM or trap/any tribute monster etc. Where zaborg doesn't care about any of that. I can't see zaborg being more situational than AK. 

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4 hours ago, mark said:

True but in order for the AK to be useful, you need to get an attack through, meaning no TER/def exarion/any BoM or trap/any tribute monster etc. Where zaborg doesn't care about any of that. I can't see zaborg being more situational than AK. 

Airknight can generate advantage through any flip (except Morphing Jar), through all floaters, through Goats, pre- and post-recursion, and it can run over any monster that Zaborg can run over except a defense-mode Exarion. On the other hand, your opponent has to have a monster worth destroying at the exact moment you have floater in order for Zaborg to generate advantage. Or, if you want to combine it with Meta, your opponent has to have two monsters worth destroying at the time you activate Meta. (If you wait until they set a monster across from your TER, it'll probably be a floater that you're better off attacking with Airknight.) All of that makes Zaborg more situational.

Note too, that neither are particularly useful against TER/BLS because those cards keep monsters from existing on your side of the field, so the only way Zaborg works against them is when combined with Prem/Call, which means it's not particularly reliable at doing the one thing it does better than Airknight. You can tribute out of these situations with BLS too, but Airknight is generally better than Zaborg there.

Your main criticism re: Airknight is that you have to get an attack through. But getting attacks through is exactly the thing you're trying to do throughout the whole game. You attack with Exarion when they have Goats up to bait the Saku, you attack with Tsuku when you have another in hand to bait the Saku, you swing with Tsuku and Sangan to bait the Mirror Force, you summon Breaker next to the Faith to bait the Torrential, etc. Either that, or those cards swing the game in your favor. Your whole game is about creating openings for your "swing"-ers, the cards that generate advantage or otherwise swing the game. So I don't really get the criticism here. If you're facing an unknown backrow, don't tribute for Airknight. Just swing with your floater or use your other cards to force the activation of the face-down to create an opening later on. I don't get the need to tribute off your floater to destroy an unknown face-down and run into a Saku just to ultimately get behind on the summon. That seems like a losing trade to me. Plus, things can get really awkward when I've got the cards I already run to deal with face-downs and I'm forced to used Zaborg because I may not get the chance to use it again later. 

Maybe it comes down to how comfortable you feel relying on 4 NoCs, 3 Meta, and 1 BLS to remove 2 Faith and 1 Jar from the game. I don't know, but I haven't been compelled to cut Airknight yet. Because the way I see it, the only real argument for Zaborg is that you can use it more liberally than Airknight, and that's fair. But you can use Blade Knight more liberally than either of them, and I just don't think that's a good enough reason to run a card in Goat format. If that were the case, Beastdown would be the best deck of the format, and it isn't.

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