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The Official Goat Format Thread (April 2005 Forbidden and Limited Lists) [Sets Until TLM]

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Jazz    4764
17 minutes ago, ACP said:

I played more than twice as many matches as you in Exarion-less goat warring and finished with a better rating.

 

BTW how did that rating system work exactly? Because we had a similar win percentage and I beat you 2 matches in H2H.

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+ACP+    34067

It's a fixed-point iteration corrected version of Elo. Which sounds fancier than it actually is. The principles of Elo were kept the same; the rating of your opponent affects the amount of points that you get for playing them.

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I agree with ACP on Trap Dustshoot. It always felt like a bit of revisionist history when people here starting playing it since it was good in the 2007-2009ish era of Yugioh. People tried Trap Dustshoot back then and it just wasn't very effective. It's at it's best when people just blind MST it and that happened a lot more back then than it does now.

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Jazz    4764

I agree with ACP on Trap Dustshoot in Exarion format, but I think Pre Exarion format is a completely different animal.

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+mmf    23264

dustshoot is terrible

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I feel like it's actually worse in pre-Exarion format since the games tend to go much longer since it's harder to push through damage, so the temporary advantage you get from shuffling back a Sinister Serpent/BLS/Sangan whatever will likely get nullified by a play later on in the game or you'll get punished by topdecking it when it's a total brick. 

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Jazz    4764
9 minutes ago, mmf said:

dustshoot is terrible

 

world's foremost authority on goat format

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+Gemstone Mine    2602
5 hours ago, mmf said:

 

all this considered, you'd still be crazy to think that zoodiac doesn't need to get murdered by the banlist. people don't like being shoehorned into specific decks, and zoodiac is a particularly bad offender here because of how modular the cards are (you can basically put the core engine in any and every deck in the format, and it's rarely incorrect to do so). goat format already has a lot of staple cards that you start most if not all decklists with, what exactly are we hoping to gain by adding another?

 

also, because tbh, people don't really want a perfectly skilled format. Even if they don't admit it, deep down, the vast majority of players prefer a format where there is a decent amount of rng involved.

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+ACP+    34067
45 minutes ago, Jazz said:

I agree with ACP on Trap Dustshoot in Exarion format, but I think Pre Exarion format is a completely different animal.

Why? The formats aren't as different as you are making them out to be. There aren't too many decks that I can think of that get shit on by Dustshoot in Exarion-less. It's still good against some (read: poorly constructed) Chaos variants, and I don't see those being any more popular in Exarion-less goats than Exarion goats. Like can you post an example of a Exarion-less goat control decklist where you'd think to yourself, "If I played this deck, I really wouldn't want to have to play against Dustshoots"?

 

Non-related to Dustshoot, I think that the most underrated card in pre-Exarion goats is Mystic Tomato. It attacks well and defends well (like Exarion does), takes great advantage of the fact that lots of people love Dekoichi, and it's good with/against Creature Swap, which actually sees some play in Exarion-less goats. I think people should try out lists with 2 Tomato, 1 Reaper, 1 Newdoria, 1 Sangan, 1 Dekoichi as their Tomato targets.

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21 minutes ago, ACP said:

Non-related to Dustshoot, I think that the most underrated card in pre-Exarion goats is Mystic Tomato. It attacks well and defends well (like Exarion does), takes great advantage of the fact that lots of people love Dekoichi, and it's good with/against Creature Swap, which actually sees some play in Exarion-less goats. I think people should try out lists with 2 Tomato, 1 Reaper, 1 Newdoria, 1 Sangan, 1 Dekoichi as their Tomato targets.

 

Mystic Tomato was also great against people who were playing warrior variants with Don Zaloog. 

Somewhat related; What was the name of that player who was fairly popular back in the day as a "great player without a lot of tournament finishes" who eventually won a SCJ with 3 Tomato and 3 Shining Angel?

EDIT: Figured it out; Kyle Duncan

Edited by Library of Alexandria

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Jazz    4764
50 minutes ago, ACP said:

Why? The formats aren't as different as you are making them out to be. There aren't too many decks that I can think of that get shit on by Dustshoot in Exarion-less. It's still good against some (read: poorly constructed) Chaos variants, and I don't see those being any more popular in Exarion-less goats than Exarion goats. Like can you post an example of a Exarion-less goat control decklist where you'd think to yourself, "If I played this deck, I really wouldn't want to have to play against Dustshoots"?

 

 

I've tried to explain it several times over the last few pages. I'll summarize briefly:

 

1. Sakuretsu is not as good. We "need" another trap.

2. Goat is better. You can sit back behind Goat and let cards accumulate. You can commit fewer cards to the field, and if your opponent is any good, they will also commit fewer cards to the field. Otherwise you can punish them for over-extending with the various power cards in the format.

3. Partly because Goat is better, Creature Swap is better, and Dustshoot has synergy with Creature Swap. Dustshoot gives you "perfect info" which greatly aides our ability to resolve Swap and get the most out of it.

4. There are actually lots of Chaos variants floating about. It's probably as common if not more common than Goat Control.

5. I haven't encountered many aggro decks lately, but when I do I like to side out Dustshoot and put Sakuretsu back in.

6. Because I encounter fewer Goat decks, or decks that run 3 Meta in general, I don't want to main Book anymore. So once again I have a hole in my deck. Dustshoot fills in pretty well here too, because it can counter Breaker and breaks up Tsuku+TER locks.

 

Edited by Jazz

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Jazz    4764
3 minutes ago, Gemstone Mine said:

didn't cris have a chaos recruiter deck a while back vs allen that looked pretty good?

 

Yeah and that deck also ran 3 Dustshoot + 2 Swap :)

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+ACP+    34067
24 minutes ago, Jazz said:

 

I've tried to explain it several times over the last few pages. I'll summarize briefly:

 

1. Sakuretsu is not as good. We "need" another trap.

2. Goat is better. You can sit back behind Goat and let cards accumulate. You can commit fewer cards to the field, and if your opponent is any good, they will also commit fewer cards to the field. Otherwise you can punish them for over-extending with the various power cards in the format.

3. Partly because Goat is better, Creature Swap is better, and Dustshoot has synergy with Creature Swap. Dustshoot gives you "perfect info" which greatly aides our ability to resolve Swap and get the most out of it.

4. There are actually lots of Chaos variants floating about. It's probably as common if not more common than Goat Control.

5. I haven't encountered many aggro decks lately, but when I do I like to side out Dustshoot and put Sakuretsu back in.

6. Because I encounter fewer Goat decks, or decks that run 3 Meta in general, I don't want to main Book anymore. So once again I have a hole in my deck. Dustshoot fills in pretty will here too, because it can counter Breaker and breaks up Tsuku+TER locks.

 

I still play 2 Saku in some of my Exarion-less goat decks; it depends on the build. I have another Exarionless goat deck that plays 0 Sakuretsu but plays 18 spells (3 goat, 3 meta, 1 swap). Saying that "Exarion doesn't exist, therefore we play less Saku, and Saku must be replaced by Dustshoot" is pretty faulty logic.

 

Scapegoat being better doesn't make Dustshoot better. If anything, it makes it worse. This is because Dustshoot is better in faster games. Also, one of the benefits to Dustshoot before was the fact that you could send back their LV1 monster to make Meta dead. But now, people are playing 2-3 goats instead of 1-2 goats, so that's less likely to be a benefit for you. Realize that "people will commit fewer cards to the field" is only true in a vacuum. If I know that you are playing Dustshoot, I will push harder if I get ahead, because I know that simpliying the gamestate and pushing my advantage is going to be higher EV when you have more dead draws. The problem is that when you get to the late game, your opponent is either going to have a few cards in their hand where Dustshoot is dead or 6 cards in hand and not care about getting Dustshoot'd.

 

Dustshoot has mild synergy with Swap, but so do a lot of things. This also contradicts point 1. If we're needing to replace Sakuretsu with something, we can just replace it with Swap. How exactly are you making room for multiple Dustshoot and Swap in your deck? I guess presumably by not playing Sakus or Book of Moons, but I'm not sure if that's the best choice.

 

Chaos is just not good, nor is it popular among good players. It wasn't the last time that we warred Exarionless goats either, and not because there's been tons of innovation that made Chaos better. It's just popular among the idiots in nostalgia duelist who'd rather play with a deck with an easier learning curve. Also, if you're going to argue that something is good because of a non-standard meta, please say that initially so that people don't waste their time arguing with you. This reminds me of the time when you posted (what I considered to be) a very bad goat sidedeck and then when people argued with you, you basically said that you were playing among a very unusual meta. As a default, I'm going to assume that your meta is mostly goat mirrors unless you specify otherwise, because that's what's popular in general.

 

Sure, there is less aggro in Exarion-less goats, and Dustshoot is at its worst among aggro, but that doesn't make it any better in goat mirrors. I also think that Book is quite good, even against decks that don't run a lot of Meta. Realize that in 2005, everyone ran 1-2 Meta, and 3 Meta was virtually unheard of. And yet Book was still accepted as one of the best, more flexible cards in the game. It's still great with flip effects and great at countering Snatch Steal and Ring, which remain 2 of the most important cards in the format.

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+ACP+    34067
19 minutes ago, Jazz said:

 

Yeah and that deck also ran 3 Dustshoot + 2 Swap :)

Yeah, and although I got shit on in those matches, Dustshoot was certainly not the cause of that. The main issue there was that my deck was absolutely unprepared to deal with 5 recruiters and 2 Asura Priest. I think Creature Swap has a lot of potential in Exarionless goats, but I would still not run Dustshoot there. I actually prefer Dust Tornado to set up big Swap plays in general.

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Spooky386    1

Hey all, long time, no post. just thought I'd let everyone know that my Goat Format deck compendium has been updated. It looks better, is easier to navigate, and it has some new decks! 
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NyjFMds1Emt2_j6K8lXLycFSKImNxaczwq_f5ZTa9ic/edit#

Are there any decks, videos, or other links I should be including in the doc? I'm always looking for stuff to add! 

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+ACP+    34067

>lists cyber jar, dd warrior lady, morphing jar, exiled force, magic cylinder as staples

 

ok then

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Spooky386    1
2 minutes ago, ACP said:

>lists cyber jar, dd warrior lady, morphing jar, exiled force, magic cylinder as staples

 

ok then

I never said I agreed with the list. Those are just cards that were often considered staples at the time. I would agree that most of those are not, in fact, staples. 

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+ACP+    34067

No, even at the time, (with the exception of DDWL) no one thought that those cards were staples.

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Spooky386    1
Just now, ACP said:

No, even at the time, (with the exception of DDWL) no one thought that those cards were staples.

So aggressive. Gotta love this community. I played competitively at the time, and have recently spent many hours researching. All of the cards I listed were considered a staple by at least some number of people. Again, that doesn't mean they were right. 

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+ACP+    34067

Oh, you played competitively at the time. Well damn, I guess you got me. It's not like DGZ literally innovated the entire goat format and won nationals in 2005 or anything.

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+ACP+    34067

The reason that we're "aggressive" as you put it is because of the fact that you're literally some random with 13 posts coming in here posting some "guide" that contains tons of misinformation (believe me, your list of staples is just the tip of the iceberg) and acting like we should somehow give a shit, and then blowing off legitimate criticisms because you've "done your research", whatever that means (frankly, it reminds me of anti-vax people the way that you say that). If we wanted to view a bunch of decklists from the format, we'd just go to kperovic.com/metagame. Organizing them based on groups with arbitrary ratings provides a very minimal amount of help.

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Spooky386    1
11 minutes ago, ACP said:

Oh, you played competitively at the time. Well damn, I guess you got me. It's not like DGZ literally innovated the entire goat format and won nationals in 2005 or anything.

I think you're missing the point, so I'm going to drop it after this comment. but anyways, I don't think you are wrong. In fact, as I said above, I agree with you. Most of those cards are not actually staples. I acknowledge, and appreciate your success, the success of the duelistgroundz, and the knowledge of all parties. However, there were many players who considered many of those cards staples of the format. This was 2005, it was a different time. You don't have to agree with the list in terms of what we would consider staples today, but that's also kind of the point. I'm just trying to provide as much context for the format as I can. Also, your signature is fairly ironic, considering the situation. 

 

EDIT: I would certainly love advice and information on updated deck lists, however. The vast majority of lists in the document are from the 2005 era, and are not updated to today's standards. I'm thinking about adding a section for more modern lists, and would love some ideas there. 

Edited by Spooky386

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+ACP+    34067

Suggestion, read: 

 

If you think that we're going to be nice when you make mistakes, then you've gotten the wrong impression about how things operate here.

 

I'm not sure by what definition that you are considering cards to be staples, as they were not present in most of the decklists at the time.

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