Haruki

The Official Goat Format Thread (April 2005 Forbidden and Limited Lists) [Sets Until TLM]

4072 posts in this topic

I think charity is the perfect example of a healthy powercard. Sure it can be used whenever, but then you're not using it well. It's only strong when combo'd with other specific cards, only acts as set-up, and not full-on just gainmassiveadvantage.card. Even if you resolve a bunch of charities, unless you have serpent it really won't result in a back-breaking victory for you, opposite of duo and pot. Also the idea of starting charity and shit would change deck building drastically. If you always had charity chaos would actually probably be very strong.

 

 

 

 

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Also what in the fuck is that deck. 

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1 hour ago, SageRhapsody said:

I think charity is the perfect example of a healthy powercard. Sure it can be used whenever, but then you're not using it well. It's only strong when combo'd with other specific cards, only acts as set-up, and not full-on just gainmassiveadvantage.card. Even if you resolve a bunch of charities, unless you have serpent it really won't result in a back-breaking victory for you, opposite of duo and pot. Also the idea of starting charity and shit would change deck building drastically. If you always had charity chaos would actually probably be very strong.

 

 

Actually, I find that many players wait far too long to use their Charity. I often fire it off when I recognize that if I don't play it, then I have to make a really subpar move otherwise. I think many players are far too risk averse with their Charity, and they are losing expected value by holding it too long.

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Pre-exarion goat format places an emphasis on a player’s deckbuilding aiblities.

 

You can’t just take Kris’ exarion goat list, and put in 2 new cards. Jazz’s chart outlining cards that got better pre-exarion and got worse pre-exarion is just the first step.

 

After evaluating, you then construct a new deck based on that primary data. It’s not take 2 monsters out, put 2 new monsters in. 

For example, with the absence of exarion, certain cards see more use. As a result, I have attempted to make the Book of Moons' function in my deck more versatile. 

 

I’ve found Compulsory Evacuation Device to be much more versatile than Book of Moon.

-               It takes TER off the field, so you don’t have to risk the attempt to kill it in your battle phase

-               It fizzles creature swap, unlike BOM

-               It opens the door to game ending damage. Many times that 1 extra direct attack has won me the game

-               The only gripe I have with it is it doesn’t answer the opponent’s breaker well, but there have been scenarios where I have re-used my breaker after reading the opponent’s non-chainable set.

 

It's things like this that I'm talking about when I say that pre-exarion format places emphasis on a skilled experienced player's knowledge of card interactions. 

 

With that being said, I think it would be very beneficial for the format if we hosted a large pre-exarion goat format tournament in the near future and publicized the top 8 decklists.

 

 

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Wow we got something to duel on again! Im going to be testing on duelingbook for the next hour or so, then again later tonight. If anyone wants to add me there the ign is "Spare".

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im the goat master now

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lol

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3 hours ago, Goins said:

Wow we got something to duel on again! Im going to be testing on duelingbook for the next hour or so, then again later tonight. If anyone wants to add me there the ign is "Spare".

DGZ now has ranked goat format play, which is a good source of testing and finding other goat players.

 

I'd check out our recently added "Team Wars & Ranked Play" forum and look at this thread in particular: 

 

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So now that we're playing pre-Exarion again, what would a - current - good goat list look like? (Can netdeck one from back in the day obviously, but they were made for X-round tournaments and the meta now is different from the meta back then)
 

I've been playing some "perfect mirrors" with: Kris Perovic -2 Exarion +2 Asura builds as a starting point, because that made the "most sense" in my eyes (and I remember Jae Kim saying in the goat thread about his theory of how everyone should be playing 3 Asura to counter everyone playing 3 Goat), either way, some problems came up (although the sample size is low):

- Drawing "slow" hands monster-wise, not drawing any beaters, or drawing outright too much spirits (2 Tsukuyomi 2 Asura is too much, basically)

- Drawing S/T clogg hands like a bunch of Dust Tornado/Book of Moon/Sakuretsu Armor etc, to the point where you're drawing more than you can block (and have no "plays" to capitalize on this)

DARK/LIGHT monster count was just fine though

What would be some good ways to counter this? Ideally I'm looking for monsters that are better than Asura, that are actually monsters (so thinking Tomato, Dekoichi, Skilled Dark Magician, stuff like that)

Also considering the fact most people only play 2 Scapegoat anyway (unless this changed), is Asura even needed anymore at all? (Or just like 1 copy), or would you just play this deck without counters to Goats? (other than, Tribe).

It really seems like most of the hands were either drawing Jar, or doing Trinity plays, but the time where you don't draw any of these there wasn't much you could do. For example, something I liked about Poluted_Delta's goat build is the sheer amount of beaters he played, and that deck could just push instead of just passively waiting. Also if you draw bad and you don't open Goats, I feel like the deck is vulnerable and will lose to sheer aggression if you don't draw enough traps to counter that. 

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If you're just looking for a starting point, Max's 1st place deck from US nats is still surprisingly good. Is it the best deck in the format? No, but it's better than most people give it credit for. I'd start from there and try to figure out what's good as you gain experience in the format.

 

http://kperovic.com/metagame/yugioh2988.html?tabid=33&ArticleId=2839

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Among other changes I'm testing double SWM instead of Exarion and it seems pretty good so far. I found that without Exarion you no longer have a good beatstick that you can just summon and demand a response to. Other options as far as I can see are SDM and Blade Knight if you wanted to take that path.

 

Regarding Asura Priest, I think more than one is unplayable, especially if you're running double Tsuk. Imo 3 Scapegoat is still not better than 2 so I don't think you need multiples of her anyway.

 

 

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I just spent 3 hours compiling a cubic buttload of stats from the link that ACP provided, and by gawd it was worth it. I'm not going to post all of it here but the most important thing is that only 23 cards were main-decked by every person who made Top 8, so there's definitely a long way to go before the Exarion-less format is solved.I took a screen cap of what seems to be the skeleton of the deck, so those of us who are stuck can start with that. You'll note that Breaker, Sangan, Metamorphosis and Book of Moon are missing. That's not a mistake.

 

NB: Nobody in Top 8 used Dekoichi, Magical Merchant, Skilled White, Skilled Dark, Big Shield Gardna, or Trap Dustshoot. Idk about you but I'm taking a hint lol.

goat skeleton.png

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Where do you people play online now?

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found it. new dn, nice!

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3 hours ago, Goins said:

I just spent 3 hours compiling a cubic buttload of stats from the link that ACP provided, and by gawd it was worth it. I'm not going to post all of it here but the most important thing is that only 23 cards were main-decked by every person who made Top 8, so there's definitely a long way to go before the Exarion-less format is solved.I took a screen cap of what seems to be the skeleton of the deck, so those of us who are stuck can start with that. You'll note that Breaker, Sangan, Metamorphosis and Book of Moon are missing. That's not a mistake.

 

NB: Nobody in Top 8 used Dekoichi, Magical Merchant, Skilled White, Skilled Dark, Big Shield Gardna, or Trap Dustshoot. Idk about you but I'm taking a hint lol.

goat skeleton.png

 

Did you play yugioh in 2005?

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Yeah, you can't just base your deck off top8 lists from 2005. Like I said, yes, it's a good starting point, but you can't assume that a card is bad just because no one played it back then. Dekoichi and Magical Merchant are certainly a lot more playable than the lists would have you believe.

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Sure, I don't think Dekoichi and Merchant are bad cards, but as someone who generally struggles with deckbuilding and has evaluating cards without play testing, the info from that tournament definitely opened my eyes to a playstyle that I hadn't really considered and that may be the "correct" way of playing the deck. Far too early to tell at this point without having a clear meta yet, but it's given me a lot to test for the time being anyway.

 

And yup I did play in 2005, from memory I was playing Warrior.dek with Maximum Six, Gilford the Lightning, Blindly Loyal Goblin, and Command Knight, almost exclusively against my friend who had Appropriate Exodia :P

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6 hours ago, Goins said:

I just spent 3 hours compiling a cubic buttload of stats from the link that ACP provided, and by gawd it was worth it. I'm not going to post all of it here but the most important thing is that only 23 cards were main-decked by every person who made Top 8, so there's definitely a long way to go before the Exarion-less format is solved.I took a screen cap of what seems to be the skeleton of the deck, so those of us who are stuck can start with that. You'll note that Breaker, Sangan, Metamorphosis and Book of Moon are missing. That's not a mistake.

 

NB: Nobody in Top 8 used Dekoichi, Magical Merchant, Skilled White, Skilled Dark, Big Shield Gardna, or Trap Dustshoot. Idk about you but I'm taking a hint lol.

goat skeleton.png

 

Most of these cards are close to staples I suppose, especially if you are building a Goat deck.

 

However it is missing several key staples for the deck:

1 Breaker

1-2 Tsukuyomi

1 Sangan

2-3 Metamorphosis

 

And the following cards are extremely overrated even though they were considered staples in 2005:

Jinzo

DDWL

 

You are much better off starting with either Kris Perovic's Exarion Goat deck or Max Suffridge's 1st Place Nationals deck like Allen suggested.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Jazz said:

However it is missing several key staples for the deck:

1 Breaker

1-2 Tsukuyomi

1 Sangan

2-3 Metamorphosis

 

And the following cards are extremely overrated even though they were considered staples in 2005:

Jinzo

DDWL

 

Yeah Sangan, Breaker and 2 Meta are all staples, idk whether the guy who was siding Sangan was trolling or... XD

 

1 Tsuku is definitely staple, I'm pretty sure noone in the Top 8 I looked at mained 2, although I think some of them sided a second. This was strange for me because before playing on DB I'd always just used something similar to Chris Perovic's deck with double Tsuk and never really questioned it. I've played about 10 games testing with just one copy and I haven't yet found myself missing the second copy. It clogs way less at 1 and makes running Asura Priest more attractive, although I personally don't.

 

I'd say 2 Meta and also 1 Book are also staple, with the option to run more of each.

 

Jinzo is stronger in some builds than in others, and he's also stronger against some builds than others. I think he's as close as you can get to a staple in the side deck, whether you main him depends on a few factors.

 

I agree DDWL is overrated and probably not a staple anymore, although she's still one of the best cards to run in standard Exarion-less goats imo.

Edited by Goins
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In general, I find it very difficult to justify not playing DDWL in Exarionless goat control. Yes, there are certainly some decks in the format where I don't play it (like Monarchs), but in the standard goat control list, D.D. Warrior Lady is going to be a great card. It plays offense and defense, can occasionally remove Sinister, and can occasionally be a light for BLS as well.

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Thoughts on a build like this? Basically looked at Max' list and at Perovic' list + added/cut some cards that seemed to clogg or seemed needed. Blade knight/DDWL are only in there because I was willing to put in dark skilled magician or white skilled magician, and realized there difference in ATK isn't significant. 2 BoM/2 Saku/2 Dust clogged so I cut them to 1, not sure if that's enough but 3 Goat - 3 Meta should help to get out of the early game and deal with threats. Couldn't fit a 2nd upstart and not sure if it's optimal either. May replace it with Dekoichi if it turns out bad, because the monster count seemed quite low when I played. Especially early game you just get shit on by aggressive builds or decks if you don't open Scapegoat, hence the beaters and the 3 Scapegoat etc.
 

2 Airknight
1 Blade Knight
1 DDWL
2 Faith
2 Merchant

1 Breaker
1 Sangan
2 Tsuk

1 MJar
1 Serpent
1 Tribe
1 BLS
/16

 

1 Upstart
1 BoM
1 Duo
3 Trinity
1 Storm
1 MST
3 Meta
2 NoC
1 Prem
3 Scapegoat
1 Snatch
/18

 

1 CotH
1 Dust
1 MForce
1 Ring
1 Saku
1 TT
/6

40.

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Upstart is just not good in 99% of goat decks. Incremental changes in life points are way too important in this format to just let your opponent have 1000 for free. Play the 2nd Book of Moon instead (or another trap, if there's some reason that you really don't like the 2nd book).

 

The only other issues with the deck are personal preference things.

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^^ was just typing out an upstart thing lol

 

i would cut blade knight for asura priest and cut upstart for either another dust or saku, maybe another book

 

i like that asura is a one card goat clearer

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There's no reason I don't like the 2nd book, other than having already "3 Meta 2 Tsuk" which is probably a little more than most play. I may try the 2nd Book anyway, but monstercount seemed low (I don't "really" count Merchant as a monster). 

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41 minutes ago, mark said:

Thoughts on a build like this? Basically looked at Max' list and at Perovic' list + added/cut some cards that seemed to clogg or seemed needed. Blade knight/DDWL are only in there because I was willing to put in dark skilled magician or white skilled magician, and realized there difference in ATK isn't significant. 2 BoM/2 Saku/2 Dust clogged so I cut them to 1, not sure if that's enough but 3 Goat - 3 Meta should help to get out of the early game and deal with threats. Couldn't fit a 2nd upstart and not sure if it's optimal either. May replace it with Dekoichi if it turns out bad, because the monster count seemed quite low when I played. Especially early game you just get shit on by aggressive builds or decks if you don't open Scapegoat, hence the beaters and the 3 Scapegoat etc.
 

2 Airknight
1 Blade Knight
1 DDWL
2 Faith
2 Merchant

1 Breaker
1 Sangan
2 Tsuk

1 MJar
1 Serpent
1 Tribe
1 BLS
/16

 

1 Upstart
1 BoM
1 Duo
3 Trinity
1 Storm
1 MST
3 Meta
2 NoC
1 Prem
3 Scapegoat
1 Snatch
/18

 

1 CotH
1 Dust
1 MForce
1 Ring
1 Saku
1 TT
/6

40.

1 duo, 3 trinity 

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