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The Official Goat Format Thread (April 2005 TCG/DB2 pre-NTR/CT2/CRV)

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+Jazz    5538

Woof. Awful hands. This is part of why I think Don is better than Reaper in goats. Especially with all the Exarions these days, I don't see much use for Reaper.

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skullvarnish    378

I'd like to be added to the PM list for Goat Tourneys, please.

 

 

DN is skullvarnish

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Chaos Ray    5

Woof. Awful hands. This is part of why I think Don is better than Reaper in goats. Especially with all the Exarions these days, I don't see much use for Reaper.

 

Don't forget he is also searchable via RotA, if you run that kind of thing. And is very good bait when your opponent thinks that you Set a weak monster and trys to Trample with Exarion or attacks it with a Sangan etc. Nice job -1ing yourself. 

 

I actually have personally gotten screwed over before by my own Reaper thanks to AIrknight and not having my Tribute monsters to get rid of it. 

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Faint    5963

I find it hard to justify Rota unless you're also running DDA/Zombyra/Exiled alongside Don. 

 

But I agree that in the current way goats are being played (exarion in every deck etc) that Don > Reaper. 

 

Further, has anybody tested out Injection Fairy Lilly? I was considering it, dunno how stable it is in goats though. 

 

Also, for anyone running Skilled White to wall airknight, Protector of the Sanctuary is at 1, is there a good reason (other than skilled white being a light attribute - not good enough reason imo given it negates charity and is brutal with mjar etc) not to run this instead?

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-L2theZ-    1611
[quote name="Faint" post="3741281" timestamp="1398291897"]Also, for anyone running Skilled White to wall airknight, Protector of the Sanctuary is at 1, is there a good reason (other than skilled white being a light attribute - not good enough reason imo given it negates charity and is brutal with mjar etc) not to run this instead?[/quote] It's light and at 1700 it can attack over a whole ton of stuff that Protector can't.

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»Ryuuzaki    2545

Can someone goat me????

Dgz-Ryuuzaki. All this talk of YGO in the CSK has urged me to goat.

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OD Superman    1122
Can we all just sit down for a second and have a serious discussion about the inclusion of CRV in (online, ARG side events, and local) Goat tournaments? I know we've talked about it before to some extent, but never so much with these tournaments in mind and I think it'd be worthwhile to have a proper debate about the topic.
 
For the record, a lot of you already know I'm a big fan of CRV nowadays. I even wrote about this a few pages back:
 

Why Cydra is not broken:
1. Three Meta and three Goat are vastly superior to any other ratio, and Cydra can easily be rendered useless by using Goat too soon (as many players do).
2. The flip side of point #1 is that Cydra gives you quicker access to Balter, though at the cost of precious resources.
3. Cydra does nothing against Goats, TER, Reaper, flip effects, Jinzo, and BLS, and can easily lose to a timely Asura. It's essentially ineffectual vs. half your average Goat deck.
4. It literally cannot be the primary aggressor. It's a responsive card by design, making it easy to play around.
 
Why Cydra is fair:
1. A card that enables you to overextend isn't inherently dangerous, and with no effect, Cydra isn't inherently dangerous. It is, by it's nature, a tit-for-tat card, a I'll-summon-this-in-response-to-your-guy card. It simply punishes poor card choices and untimely aggression by non-floaters. Thus it forces both players to play more patiently and utilize less sub-2100 beaters, or at least utilize them more effectively (i.e. waiting for Sinister to drop before summoning Kycoo, waiting for Goats before summoning Exarian, etc.). Cydra is the biggest beater, meaning the rest of the deck has to focus less on trying to compete with it via beatdown and more via control.
2. An extension of point #1 is that just because Cydra lets you overextend doesn't necessarily mean it'll always work out, as you can easily be punished for going Cydra + Breaker, for example. 
3. Imagine facing a flipped Dekoichi protected by Sakuretsu with nothing sans a Smashing Ground and a normal summon  this is what Goat format amounts to when you're facing down Airknight or Exarian, among other beaters, with nothing but a Book of Moon and Tsukuyomi or whatever. These situations quickly develop into runaway situations that seal a game and Cydra essentially acts as an equalizer in these situations (either through it's sheer ATK power or ability to still set in MP2 when your attacks are disrupted by traps).
4. Cydra can deal with a few things that can only be dealt with in a limited number of ways, but Cydra itself can be dealt with in many, many different ways. 
5. Many times, Cydra isn't accompanied by a second summon, which means it essentially becomes just a less threatening version of the 2k Blade Knight (2 Tsuku vs. 3 flips, I mean).

Why Cydra is useful:
1. It's a light.
2. It punishes shitty card choices and shitty players that make shitty moves.

With that, I think the entire argument against CRV rests squarely on Twin, to which I say, it's one thing if your opponent opens up with the nuts and Twins you for game on the first turn. In those incredibly rare situations, sure, you have just cause for despising the card. But when it's a back and forth game with full hands, full life counts, and a dwindling number of cards in each deck, I think it's wholly appropriate for both players to have a win condition at their disposal. I think it's fair to have to play around a card like Twin in those situations and I think skill plays a very real factor every turn you have some piece of the BLS + Meta + Heavy puzzle at your disposal because Twin will, more often than not, benefit the more patient player the player, I mean, that keeps his eye on the game shot. In other words, I've been playing Goat Format for a really long time and I don't ever really see people holding a Storm and Meta and draw into a BLS for game (because, you know, Goats exist), or at least I don't see that nearly as much as I see people holding BLS + TIV + Meta for 6 turns before finally drawing Heavy for game, at which point I'd say that was a fine, fair win, and infinitely preferable to winning (or losing) by deck-out 8 turns later.

On a side note, I find that those who most often grumble against Twin are quick to raise their pitchforks against Ring as well, and mostly for the same reasons, so I just want to add that my view is the same there. I think Ring is a great card for Goat format (much better there then, say, it would be now, if that helps you to see why). 
 
So all in all, I just think those in the anti-CRV camp either like using shitty card choices (like Kycoo and Blade Knight) and/or don't see the value in giving Goat decks a win condition, even though win conditions (rare as they are) offer more to play towards as well as play around, making skill and timing more relevant than they would be otherwise.

 
And while most of the feedback I got suggests we generally agree that Cydra isn't broken in and of itself, there remains two arguments against its inclusion in the card pool: 1. the life point value at which a game can suddenly end via Cyber and/or Twin is increased because there are more ways to lose and 2. an entire category of sub-2100 non-floaters become untenable and the game is more interesting when there exists a diverse set of card choices.
 
This may be true, but I think, in addition to what's quoted: 1. there are more ways to win so there are more things to play around, making each decision more crucial than they otherwise would be (which makes success in the format more skill-dependent), and 2. those effect-driven sub-2100s create more runaway situations than Cydra can i.e. sometimes a Blade Knight can be just as crippling as a Balter whereas Cydra is purely a beater.
 
To counter the second argument in another way, note that cards like Enraged Battle Ox, Berserk Gorilla, DDA, Kycoo, and Blade Knight necessitate the use of cards like Smashing, Sakuretsu, or BTH so you don't fall behind on board presence. They also allow for other cards, like Tomato and Newdoria, to be used without consequence. And well, none of these cards are really useful against the actual threats of the format, namely AK, Jar, MoF, and TER. So if these cards get used, and if they must be countered without an equalizer like Cydra (which stops AK and flips from turning into runaway situations), it necessarily makes each deck worse than they otherwise would be. In other words, giving everyone access to Cydra just makes everyone's deck better, which makes the games more fun.
 
Anyway, as I said, I've been playing this format for a long time and the best matches I've had have always been when I played post-CRV. There's so much more riding on each play. There are more comebacks and counters available, and more room to make mistakes. IMO all that is worth dealing with Twin some 2% of the time (mostly when I would've lost anyway).
 
But I get that some folks might disagree, and I'd at least like to start a real conversation about why beyond what's already been said, so we can at least talk about maybe changing our approach to revisiting this format.
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+Urthor    10234

You're completely right, but honestly 10 years of testing and the community practicing without Cyber Dragon is sorta the major reason people don't want to play with it, they're just not super prepared. 

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+Jazz    5538
What if we only ban cyber twin dragon? I would be ok with trying that. Although I am still skeptical about Cydra's impact on the game. I still think it speeds goats up and leads to quick combo wins. All you need is S/T removal + Cydra + monster + BLS. I also don't want to play more machine decks.
 
And for clarity, we are talking about CRV not TLM.

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Faint    5963

Why try to fix something that isn't broken?!

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OD Superman    1122

And for clarity, we are talking about CRV not TLM.

Yeah, my bad, I fixed that.

A few things:
1. Machine decks are pretty bad, so you might actually want people to use them.
2. The beauty of Goat format is that it's generally not that simple to get MST + Cydra + BLS + monster against a field of just one monster, with no Goats behind it. But I guess if you're worried about that happening, try playing a few games against someone post-CRV and see how often that comes up.
3. IMO having Cydra without Twin would, as I said, just make 98% of the games better, so that's not a compromise I'd argue against. But I'd like more feedback on this point.

You're completely right, but honestly 10 years of testing and the community practicing without Cyber Dragon is sorta the major reason people don't want to play with it, they're just not super prepared. 

I agree, and I think this is a point most often heard in the form of, "Why try to fix something that isn't broken?!

Why try to fix something that isn't broken?!

Well, that's the thing. In my view, for whatever that's worth to you, pre-CRV Goats is broken. I think there exists too many poor card choices that both create random runaway scenarios and don't work well against the real threats of the format. I also think those cards make everyone's deck worse and thus make every game less fun. So I'd just like to encourage folks to use it for themselves to see what I'm talking about before writing it off altogether.

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-L2theZ-    1611
I'm open to the idea of playing with CRV. I still don't like how Cyber Dragon massively hurts the playability of anything that draws its value from stats and any tribute monster with 2100 or under attack. I also really don't like how Cyber End and Cyber Twin only make the game worse but I'm willing to give it a go.

As far as adding CRV without Cyber Twin is concerned (and possibly Cyber End and/or Cyber-Stein since Stein OTK would be a very real thing with CRV) why stop there? If we're all going to agree to a change like that why not get rid of all the rest of the OTKs that exist as well and some of the more problematic cards while adding back cards that in no way should be on the Forbidden List at the time? Shit we could even get really crazy if we wanted and start adding cards from post CRV sets to the format. I'd be lying if I said that there weren't a bunch of cards from modern sets that made me go "damn if only they had printed that a decade ago, cause that's a solid goat format card"
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OD Superman    1122
[quote name="L2theZ" post="3741849" timestamp="1398365689"]I'm open to the idea of playing with CRV. I still don't like how Cyber Dragon massively hurts the playability of anything that draws its value from stats and any tribute monster with 2100 or under attack. I also really don't like how Cyber End and Cyber Twin only make the game worse but I'm willing to give it a go. As far as adding CRV without Cyber Twin is concerned (and possibly Cyber End and/or Cyber-Stein since Stein OTK would be a very real thing with CRV) why stop there? If we're all going to agree to a change like that why not get rid of all the rest of the OTKs that exist as well and some of the more problematic cards while adding back cards that in no way should be on the Forbidden List at the time? Shit we could even get really crazy if we wanted and start adding cards from post CRV sets to the format. I'd be lying if I said that there weren't a bunch of cards from modern sets that made me go "damn if only they had printed that a decade ago, cause that's a solid goat format card"[/quote]Sorry, I thought OTKs, Stein, etc were already banned. Also, yes, a custom format can easily surpass any format ever. But designing one isn't a problem. The problem is in getting enough people to learn the card pool and ban list so as to make the gameplay competitive enough.

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+Jazz    5538

Yes, typically when people do goat tournaments there is a disclaimer of "honor bans" that includes Stein, OTKs, burn, etc. No reason this could not include "Cyber Twin + End."

 

I will have to try a bunch of games with CRV (+/- the fusions) and get back to you with my thoughts. I honestly haven't used it in like 3 years or whenever it became really mainstream to ban CRV. Hell maybe even since Sept 05, I have no idea. Perhaps it is less broken than people claim in goats, and we are all reacting emotionally to the shitty formats that immediately followed where Cydra ran rampant. It's like human psychology 101: guilt by association.

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-L2theZ-    1611
There's no hard ban on them as far as I'm aware it's more of a "hey don't be a gigantic asshole" thing.
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I think this is a splendid idea. I also agree that there are plenty of cards that I'd love to play in goats (and even a select few xyz monsters)

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Faint    5963

I haven't played ygo properly since glads started getting big, so have no idea about xyz monsters^ :S haha

 

A custom format would be amazing though. Could include sets that can be used, example decklists...etc.

 

 

Unrelated: I am on for goats and getting steadily more drunk (pre drinks starts at 9, I wanna save money in the club so I'm getting drunker much earlier so I don't spend as much in there!) so now is the perfect time to play me!

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»Ryuuzaki    2545

I'm open to playing with Cyber. I don't think we should ban Twin directly, though, but definitely Stein. If we're going to allow the set, we might as well not just allow 1 playable card out of the set. On for Goat games.

DGz-Ryuuzaki

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Faint    5963

Yeah, I'd be up for allowing CRV without Stein. Opens up so many cards/plays, also makes a bunch of monsters so much weaker, would be fun. 

 

Message me for games, DGzFaint

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Chaos Ray    5

So I updated my Deck just a tad for CRV. I only played a few games with this so far, only been able to pull out Cyber Twin once; It was for game. Probably would of still had it even without Cyber Twin. I want to replace the 2nd Exarion with something else, but am not 100% sure on what. Been considering options like Don, raw Beatsticks like Skilled Dark Magcian, or a floater that trades like Newdoria. 

 

[spoiler]8qfyFCU.png[/spoiler]

 

 

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Faint    5963

Play me with that deck in a tourney, please

 

Edit:

 

CRV being introduced generally means that:

 

-BTH is far superior to sakuretsu

-Generally, I'd say airknight is inferior to Zaborg

-Smashing ground becomes much more relevant

-Cyber Dragon should be played at at least 2 in standard decks, being a light that can run over Spy Exarion Guard etc is priceless

-Drillroid is amazing

-Set monsters become way less relevent, maybe putting NoC at one (though I've not done this yet)

-Don goes back to being less good than reaper

-Metamorph should be run in 3s, because CyDra into Dark Balter is so good

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+Jazz    5538

I don't think Newdoria counts as a floater at all. A floater by definition must pay for itself before it becomes a floater. This is why cards like Newdoria, D.D. Assailant, etc. are extremely weak in goats unless they can successfully take out a non-floater in battle.

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