Vice Captain Sanada

Monarch - Discussion

1360 posts in this topic

[center][size=6][b]Frog Monarchs[/b][/size][/center]


[img]http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/Indignation_X/monarchbanner-1-1.png[/img]

[size=4][size=3][i]Monarch decks, particularly Frog Monarchs win games by repeadedly summoning big monsters with the help of Treeborn Frog, removing the opponents cards in the process. By running little to no traps, other decks will tend to have a number of "dead draws" against it. With the introduction of Illusory Snatcher and Daigusto Phoenix, the deck can OTK with relative ease.[/i][/size]
[size=3]Frogs
[spoiler]
[b]Treeborn Frog[/b][/size][/size]

[size=3] [img]http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120616114318/yugioh/images/9/91/TreebornFrog-BP01-EN-R-1E.png[/img]

The very center of the deck. Get this to the grave, and become aware of how awesome your standby phase truly is. The synergy this card has with Enemy Controller is ridiculous, essentially turning it into a costless brain control. Unless konami prints something any [i]more [/i]ridiculous, this card will remain the main source of monarch fodder for the remainder of this game.

[b]Swap Frog[/b]

[img]http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100118023646/yugioh/images/6/6d/SwapFrogSOVR-EN-C-1E.jpg[/img]

Opening with this pretty much sets the gears in motion. Thanks to its “POKEMON! RETURN!” effect, you can thin your deck of frogs each turn. Bouncing it back will more times than not will leave you with an empty field which sounds terrible but easily deter attacks for a turn for the simple fact that the deck maxes out on Gorz, Tragoedia and sometime Battle fader. Swap Frog facilitates the Tributing and XYZ engine in the deck.

[b]Ronintoadin[/b]

[img]http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100523035510/yugioh/images/b/b0/RonintoadinTSHD-EN-C-1E.png[/img]

A 2000 def monster that can be summoned multiple times a turn so long as it has the fuel... what’s not to love? It makes for easy LADD, Obelisk, Daigusto Phoenix and Gachi Plays. Even in a worst case scenario, it’s a wall to stall.

[b]Dupe Frog[/b]

[img]http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110804021158/yugioh/images/0/0d/DupeFrogCRMS-EN-C-1E.png[/img]

Every deck loves recruiters.This one happens to be a wall that adds needed consistency to a deck that can potentially open terribly. After it’s been used and abused, it can fuel Ronin. WARNING: THIS EFFECT IS OPTIONAL AND WILL MISS TIMING IF USED FOR TRIBUTE IN ANYWAY, SHAPE, OR FORM, SUCH AS ENEMY CONTROLLER OR TRIBUTE SUMMON.

[b]Poison Draw Frog[/b]

[img]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080523033226/yugioh/images/1/1b/PoisonDrawFrogDR04-EN-C-UE.png[/img]

With the release of cards like Inzektor Exa Beetle, and Sea Lancer, this card is beginning to see play in Frog builds. Cards like Sea Lancer are already difficult to remove from the field. Equipping it with PDF widens the gap of card advantage between you and your opponent. Similar to Dupe Frog, this card WILL miss the timing if you tribute it for a Monarch or E-Con.

[/spoiler]
Monarchs
[spoiler]

[b]Caius the Shadow Monarch[/b]

[img]http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120616113132/yugioh/images/f/f8/CaiustheShadowMonarch-BP01-EN-R-1E.png[/img]

Caius’s ability to banish has been a play disrupter for many formats. This guy will be played in triplicate just because there are so many cards whose effects activate by being sent to the grave. Caius can target any card on the field, and even burn for 1000 – an effect which can outright steal games in overtime. Caius is possibly the best monarch to be released and the only one that even makes this debatable is Raiza… a Monarch that’s been on the banlist.

[b]Raiza the Storm Monarch[/b]

[img]http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120704193844/yugioh/images/7/74/RaizatheStormMonarch-DL14-EN-R-UE-Blue.png[/img]

Raiza has been on the goddamn BANLIST because of the effectiveness of spinning cards to the top. It’ s pretty terrible being on the wrong side of a Raiza lock. With the release of Daigusto Phoenix, Raiza also has the ability to dish out 6300 damage – potentially giving it the spot as #1 monarch once again… Raiza will be a big help no matter what point of the game you drop it.

[b]Mobius the Frost Monarch[/b]

[img]http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120531134036/yugioh/images/d/d0/MobiustheFrostMonarch-BP01-EN-R-1E.png[/img]

With many decks maindecking a single copy of Starlight Road in response to Double MF, double TT, Dark Hole and Heavy, you’d wonder why anyone would run this card now. Although most decks have put this guy on the shelf for a few formats, he may see play once again with the Release of Illusory Snatcher. The ability to get around SLR is a HUGE play, your opponent no longer feels safe with a Starlight Road – who’d’ve thought that’d ever happen? Being a WATER monster allows you to discard for Swap Frog and as a random target for Spiritual Water Art - Aoi.

[b]Zaborg the Thunder Monarch[/b]

[img]http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120616114436/yugioh/images/f/fa/ZaborgtheThunderMonarch-BP01-EN-C-1E.png[/img]

With BLS back, having a LIGHT Monarch doesn’t sound like such a bad idea. Access to Rank 5 monsters is an added benefit with Illusory Snatcher. He’s more of a niche card in XYZ dedicated builds, however I wouldn't be surprised if he saw play in future builds.

[/spoiler]
Accessory Monsters
[spoiler]

[b]Effect Veiler[/b]

[img]http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120330212945/yugioh/images/d/dd/EffectVeiler-ORCS-EN-SR-LE.png[/img]

A one-turn Skill Drain – the ability to stop a big play – a tuner. What’s not to love? Effect Veiler is necessary in the current meta. Effect Veiler shines brightly in this deck because of her ability to go into Formula Synchron and Level 7 Synchro Monsters with ease.

[b]Sangan[/b]

[img]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120420230315/yugioh/images/e/e8/Sangan-YS12-EN-C-1E.png[/img]

Sangan can search any Frog, Battle Fader and even Sea Lancer. Not only do you get an opponents monster in conjunction with Enemy Controller, but a search as well. So long as the card is legal, it’s mandatory effect will continue to be abused and this deck can do it just as well as any other.

[b]Tour Guide from the Underworld[/b]

[img]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120531135837/yugioh/images/9/96/TourGuideFromtheUnderworld-BP01-EN-R-1E.png[/img]

As previously stated, Sangan can search just about every key card in this deck. Searching it out, and Xyz’ing into a bigger monster is great on its own. The ability to go into Leviair and OTK in conjunction with Daigusto Phoenix gives this deck the boost it needs to remain competitive in the current meta.

[b]Hieratic Dragon of Tefnuit[/b]

[img]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120520031134/yugioh/images/d/d6/HieraticDragonofTefnuit-GAOV-EN-R-1E.png[/img]

A Cyber Dragon with the ability to make Rank 6 xyz's. More XYZ dedicated Monarch decks should consider this card. It is fairly consistently searched and can work properly with multiple copies of itself or Hieratic Dragon of Su. He's a LIGHT for BLS too. Take note that Tefnuit will counteract cards like Treeborn Frog and Light And Darkness Dragon. We haven't seen a truly effective Hieratic Monarch variant yet, but that doesn't mean there aren't any good builds out there.

[b]Sea Lancer[/b]

[img]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120418043327/yugioh/images/d/db/SeaLancer-GENF-EN-R-1E.jpg[/img]

A searchable tribute monster with the ability to recycle your banished frogs. Because of its effect, Sea Lancer takes a few turns to be destroyed – he sets your deck back on track by getting your Frogs back where they need to be. Similar to LADD, this card forces your opponent to use up resources to kill him, giving you a chance to build a great hand and damage your opponents.

[b]Illusory Snatcher[/b]

[img]http://images.trollandtoad.com/products/pictures/727408.jpg[/img]

Probably the biggest boost this deck has received comes in the form of Illusory Snatcher, a monster who literally copies the form of a monster you tribute summoned. The Snatcher has the ability to push for 2400 extra damage, as well as provides access to XYZ monsters, Ranks 5 through 10. His effect also prevents the activation of your opponents trap cards such as Starlight Road.

[b]Battle Fader[/b]

[img]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120530134259/yugioh/images/b/b4/BattleFader-BP01-EN-C-1E.png[/img]

When practically every deck in the meta has the ability to pack 8000 damage on board with ease, Battle Fader is an important asset for the Monarch Player. Not only can you stop a push for game, but you simultaneously set up the field for a Tribute Summon or an Enemy Controller play. Monarch decks shine by punishing the opponent for committing too much to the board and this guy gets the deck where it needs to be.


[b]Gorz, the Emissary of Darkness[/b]

[img]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120616113637/yugioh/images/2/23/GorztheEmissaryofDarkness-BP01-EN-R-1E.png[/img]

He’s Gorz. He stops OTK’s, and has a 2700 body. The token can get pretty big too. In certain situations, having the Gorz + Token can be used as tribute fodder for something even bigger, such as Obelisk. As long as this guy isn’t banned, he’ll see a spot in your deck.

[b]Tragoedia[/b]

[img]http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120607001058/yugioh/images/2/2e/Tragoedia-BP01-EN-SFR-1E.png[/img]

This guy might even be better than Gorz in terms of versatility. The ability to permanently steal monsters shouldn't be overlooked. Such an effect facilitates further XYZ summoning and Tribute summons. Too much advantage can be gained with this card and at 2, he can turn a bad situation into winning ones fairly consistently. By tribute summoning Trag, and dropping Illusory Snatcher, you also have the ability to go into Superdreadnought Rail Cannon Gustav Max. Trag is too versatile to not be played.

[/spoiler]
Boss Monsters
[spoiler]

[b]Light and Darkness Dragon[/b]

[img]http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110325194408/yugioh/images/5/5a/LightandDarknessDragonSTOR-EN-SR-LE.png[/img]

LADD forces a number of things on your opponent: burn through cards just to weaken it low enough to beat over, negate the summon, or activate a 2nd effect in response to LADDs effect. Either way, it’s a 1 card advantage building machine. Being a LIGHT attribute Monster, this card makes Black Luster Soldier – EotB that much easier to summon.

[b]Obelisk the Tormentor[/b]

[img]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120607002246/yugioh/images/9/93/ObelisktheTormentor-BP01-EN-SFR-1E.png[/img]

Probably the hardest drop for this deck and it can STILL be pulled off without a hitch. Many decks have few outs to this godly beast and if it’s not handled quick enough, 4000 ATK can only smack someone around for so long.

[b]Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning[/b]

[img]http://images.wikia.com/yugioh/images/4/46/BlackLusterSoldierEnvoyoftheBeginning-MC2-EN-ScR-LE.jpg[/img]

It wins games. You have plenty of Darks and enough Lights to viably use him.


[b]Chaos Sorcerer[/b]

[img]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120207082729/yugioh/images/c/c4/ChaosSorcerer-SDDC-EN-C-1E.jpg[/img]

This guy works very similarly to Illusory Snatcher in the deck. He can pack an added 2300 damage on board when necessary, used for a Rank 6 xyz summon, or be used as tribute fodder if needed. The ability to use his Banish effect and be transformed into another monster should be considered. Many decks struggle with viably finding room for him.

[b]Jinzo[/b]

[img]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120607003242/yugioh/images/a/ad/Jinzo-BP01-EN-R-1E.png[/img]

Running a deck with no traps has its perks. This cards utility shifts as the meta shifts. Being able to shut down a large portion of your opponents deck is nothing to scoff at.

[b]Moulin Glace, the Elemental Lord[/b]
[img]http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120720174728/yugioh/images/a/ad/IceSpiritGodMoulinGlace-ABYR-JP-SR.jpg[/img]

Konami pls.
Upon release, this card will definitely see play in builds more dedicated to the Frog engine.

[/spoiler]
Spells
[spoiler]

[b]Enemy Controller[/b]

[img]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120530134261/yugioh/images/1/15/EnemyController-BP01-EN-C-1E.png[/img]

LITERALLY a free brain control in the standby phase when combined with Treeborn and one of most game changing cards this deck can run. There is no reason this deck SHOULDN’T run 3. Even in the worst case when you have no monsters to use to steal, it can deter 1 attack. Card is great and this deck can abuse it better than any other.

[b]Soul Exchange[/b]

[img]http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120607003243/yugioh/images/8/8b/SoulExchange-BP01-EN-SFR-1E.png[/img]

It can be an out to a number of threats this deck faces like Krystia, Vanity’s Fiend, Dyna, Banisher, or just any monster that might be big enough to threaten if you read a veiler coming. It’s also a big help for dropping your double (or triple) tribute monsters when the other means aren’t available. It’s 1 more precaution to make sure you can survive in the times where your frogs are a little bogged down.

[/spoiler]
Traps
[spoiler]

[b]Treacherous Trap Hole[/b]

[img]http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100726190309/yugioh/images/2/27/TreacherousTrapHole-TU03-EN-SR-UE.png[/img]

Trap cards are counterintuitive to most of the power cards in the deck, Treeborn frog, Gorz, LADD work when the Spell and Trap zones are empty.. That being said, Treacherous Trap Hole is a +1. In tough situations, it could be helpful. With MST, Dust Tornado, Trap Stun and Night Beam all at 3, running 0 trap cards gives your opponent dead draws – which gives this deck a huge advantage.

[/spoiler]
Extra Deck
[spoiler]

Although they aren’t a dedicated Synchro or XYZ deck, a number of tools are accessible to the Monarch player in the extra deck.


[b]Formula Synchron[/b] – revive treeborn and summon a dead veiler for a free draw in a tough spot. With Enemy Controller etc, making a Shooting Star Dragon with an opponents Stardust Dragon isn’t exactly out of the question either ^.^


[b]Ancient Sacred Wyvern[/b] – Arguably one of the most underrated best cards in the game. With a plethora of Level 6 monsters, this card can be summoned with ease with Effect Veiler. Because the deck doesn’t run the Solemn Brigade, has 2000 DEF monsters and Battle Faders. In short, your life points will almost always be higher than your opponents. This card means certain game if your opponent takes much more than 2000 damage.


[b]Gachi Gachi Gantetsu[/b] – Frogs make rank 2’s easily. The extra 400 atk is enough to push many of your monsters above your opponents'. Any Monarch is now able to kill Shi En, Laggia, Adreus, Grapha and others by battle.


[b]Daigusto Phoenix[/b] - While Monarchs excel at the grind game, Daigusto Phoenix gives Monarchs the ability to OTK as well by allowing a WIND monster to attack twice. Notable monsters include itself, Raiza the Storm Monarch, Stardust Dragon, Leviair the Sea Dragon and Gaia Dragon, the Thunder Charger.


[b]Number 96: Dark Mist[/b] – although 3 level 2 monsters is a high cost, being able to run over anything by battle is a nice perk.


[b]Leviair the Sea Dragon[/b] – He’s an OTK with Swap frog and Ronintoadin, being a WIND for Daigusto Phoenix. Getting a D.D. Crow’d Treeborn back in grave is pretty great too. He’s probably the best reason to run Tour Guide in this deck.


[b]Inzektor Exa-Beetle[/b] – A great card when you need to clear out some more of your opponents cards. A common play is: Summon Caius, Banish, summon Snatcher, overlay for Exa-Beetle, send another card, overlay for Gaia Dragon. Getting LADD's effect resolved when Exa-Beetle is destroyed is a huge plus too!


[b]Photon Strike Bounzer[/b] - After pushing for damage with a monarch + Snatcher, XYZ into Strike Bounzer to shut down an opponent’s comeback play.


[b]Gaia Dragon the Thunder Charger [/b]- Aside from having a broken summoning mechanic, he’s a WIND for Daigusto Phoenix. A double attack piercer is just incredible. 1 is mandatory in each extra– depending on how much xyz summoning you do, bumping this up to 2 or 3 might be a good idea.[/size]
[size=3][b]Number 11: Big Eye [/b]- A Rank 7 capable of stealing opponents monsters. Hm.

[b]Constellar Ptolemys Messier 7[/b] - Being able to recycle Monarchs, Snatcher, Swap Frog OR bounce an opponents monster is incredibly good.


[b]SuperDreadnought Cannon Gustav Max[/b] - Tribute Summon Tragoedia? summon Illusory Snatcher? put 5000 dmg on board? okay.


[/spoiler]
Sample Build
[spoiler]

Monsters: 29

2x Effect Veiler
2x Treeborn Frog
3x Swap frog
2x Ronintoadin
2x Dupe Frog
2x Tour Guide
1x Sangan
2x Battle Fader
2x Tragoedia
1x Gorz
3x Caius the Shadow Monarch
3x Raiza the Storm Monarch
1x Illusory Snatcher
2x Light and Darkness Dragon
1x Black Luster Soldier – Envoy of the Beginning


Spells: 11

3x Enemy Controller
2x Soul Exchange
1x Pot of Duality
1x Dark Hole
1x Heavy Storm
1x Monster Reborn
2x Mystical Space Typhoon


Extra: 15

1xFormula Synchron
1xAncient Sacred Wyvern
1xBlack Rose Dragon
1xStardust Dragon
1xScrap Dragon
1xNumber 96: Dark Mist
1xGachi Gachi Gantetsu
2x Daigusto Phoenix
1xLeviair, the Sea Dragon
1xInzektor Exa-Beetle
1xPhoton Strike Bounzer
1xSwordbreaker
1xGaia Dragon, the Thunder Charger
1xHieratic Sun Dragon Overlord of Heliopolis

[/spoiler][/size]

[size=3]With Plenty of abuseable effects, and an ever expanding card pool, Monarchs are an archetype that will constantly remain a threat in the metagame.[/size]
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I lost at "konami pls"

You know, you mentioned how large hands can get in this.

Obelisk is a hard drop, but still "doable" in your book.

You mentioned control.

[img]http://images.wikia.com/yugioh/images/4/4a/SlifertheSkyDragon-JUMP-EN-UR.jpg[/img]

Even while only ONE card is in your hand, the opponent can't get away with summoning anything weaker than BLS without it losing to this card.






Also, you said no traps.

[img]http://images.wikia.com/yugioh/images/2/27/TreacherousTrapHole-TU03-EN-SR-UE.png[/img]
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Big Eye goes in the extra as long as you're playing Illusory.
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Quick correction for the OP: Raiza + Phoenix is 6300 damage, not 5600.

[quote name='Pharaoh Atem' timestamp='1346721859' post='3271936']
I lost at "konami pls"

You know, you mentioned how large hands can get in this.

Obelisk is a hard drop, but still "doable" in your book.

You mentioned control.

(Slifer)

Even while only ONE card is in your hand, the opponent can't get away with summoning anything weaker than BLS without it losing to this card.
[/quote]

Slifer is really cool but the biggest reason why Obelisk is used is because there's very very few outs to it and Slifer just doesn't have the same kind of protection.
Though I don't see the Lancer decks that could easily drop Obelisk using it as much now though - Inzektors being less prominent and Mirror Force going to 2 means there's a fair few more outs to it being commonly played compared to last format where many deck's only out was Dark Hole.
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I played Frog Monarch at a regional on Saturday and started out 6-0 then lost the last 3 rounds to either B.S. or the short end of grind games. I felt like it would be a good choice for the first reg of the format and for the most part I was right, playing against multiple "free win" matchups like Sams and DW. Hero was kinda in the middle, could go either way depending on their hand. And Rabbit/Wind-up were the tough matchups due to their explosiveness and power, although if I survive a push the right combo of cards can fuck their field.

I did a lot of Soul Exchange+Mobius on ppl but wasn't thrilled to see the amount of BTH and Starlight Road that I did. I almost lost a game to Road but I had Fader to save myself. Fader, I realised pretty quickly in swiss, was very good against certain decks and I wished I had mained a second copy. Basically my deck was bare bones Monarchs and shit that brought out Monarchs. I wanted a Monarch play as early and often as possible, and didn't want randy draws and dead cards. That's why I opted not running TGU or Snatchers. Snatcher sounds great but in testing it was inconsistent and can be dead. Sometimes it's hard enough just waiting to draw a Monarch much less getting one out.

An interesting thing of note is that I felt like the frog engine was the weakest part of my deck. Sure the Treeborns and Swaps are great but Ronin and Dupe were far from ideal in numerous instances. They mostly served as chump blockers while waiting to get a play going. And I only Daigusto+Raiza'd once the whole day. Definitely an overrated combo although it's pretty cute. I just feel like something else could better fit the spots of the rest of the frogs imo.

I ended up 7-3 and that definitely wasn't good for a Reg imo. A lot of games were grinders, esp the ones I lost could have gone either way. I'm sure if I had had the cards to play WU or Geargia I'd have topped but o well I sold most of my stuff months ago and made money. The highlight of the day though was one of my opponents going balls-out ham with WUs game 3 complete with Shock Master (calling spells) and running his entire field into Mirror Force. He spent so long comboing out just to scoop his shit up in 0.01 sec lol. Mirror Force was great sided for me cause nobody sees it coming. They assume nothing is down but MST/EC and run right into it, and they side out s/t removal anyway. Ironically though my 3rd loss was to a guy who didn't side out MSTs and ripped one to hit my MF, which would've crippled him, then OTK'd me.

Overall I think Monarchs are ok but there are better decks out there. I'm gonna try some alternatives to the bulk of the frog engine though and see how that works.
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[quote name='Inari' timestamp='1346728873' post='3272085']
I played Frog Monarch at a regional on Saturday and started out 6-0 then lost the last 3 rounds to either B.S. or the short end of grind games. I felt like it would be a good choice for the first reg of the format and for the most part I was right, playing against multiple "free win" matchups like Sams and DW. Hero was kinda in the middle, could go either way depending on their hand. And Rabbit/Wind-up were the tough matchups due to their explosiveness and power, although if I survive a push the right combo of cards can fuck their field.

I did a lot of Soul Exchange+Mobius on ppl but wasn't thrilled to see the amount of BTH and Starlight Road that I did. I almost lost a game to Road but I had Fader to save myself. Fader, I realised pretty quickly in swiss, was very good against certain decks and I wished I had mained a second copy. Basically my deck was bare bones Monarchs and shit that brought out Monarchs. I wanted a Monarch play as early and often as possible, and didn't want randy draws and dead cards. That's why I opted not running TGU or Snatchers. Snatcher sounds great but in testing it was inconsistent and can be dead. Sometimes it's hard enough just waiting to draw a Monarch much less getting one out.

An interesting thing of note is that I felt like the frog engine was the weakest part of my deck. Sure the Treeborns and Swaps are great but Ronin and Dupe were far from ideal in numerous instances. They mostly served as chump blockers while waiting to get a play going. And I only Daigusto+Raiza'd once the whole day. Definitely an overrated combo although it's pretty cute. I just feel like something else could better fit the spots of the rest of the frogs imo.

I ended up 7-3 and that definitely wasn't good for a Reg imo. A lot of games were grinders, esp the ones I lost could have gone either way. I'm sure if I had had the cards to play WU or Geargia I'd have topped but o well I sold most of my stuff months ago and made money. The highlight of the day though was one of my opponents going balls-out ham with WUs game 3 complete with Shock Master (calling spells) and running his entire field into Mirror Force. He spent so long comboing out just to scoop his shit up in 0.01 sec lol. Mirror Force was great sided for me cause nobody sees it coming. They assume nothing is down but MST/EC and run right into it, and they side out s/t removal anyway. Ironically though my 3rd loss was to a guy who didn't side out MSTs and ripped one to hit my MF, which would've crippled him, then OTK'd me.

Overall I think Monarchs are ok but there are better decks out there. I'm gonna try some alternatives to the bulk of the frog engine though and see how that works.
[/quote]
I have experienced a huge difference in testing apparently lol. I run 2 Snatch and loved it just about every time it's in my hand. And it's not like it's not summonable if you desperately neeeeeeed it. Of course like any other card, it's dead occasionally. However the vastly greater amount that it's live and the plays it leads into (whether it's an otk with the extra damage or the rank 6) is amazing.

As far as Phoenix + Raiza, I can't remember the last match I played where I didn't at least get that play off once, let alone multiple times. I feel the frogs are still a very necessary part of the deck. Dark Mist has saved my bacon quite a bit too.

You are dead on about wind ups though, in my testing they have easily been the toughest match. It's hard to play against them without traps when they can block your Gorz/Trag/Fader.

I'm going to Charlotte in a couple weeks and I'll be playing either Monarchs or Agents.
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Not digging Ladd too much right now. Thoughts?
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[quote]
As far as Phoenix + Raiza, I can't remember the last match I played where I didn't at least get that play off once, let alone multiple times. I feel the frogs are still a very necessary part of the deck. Dark Mist has saved my bacon quite a bit too.

[/quote]

There were a lot of games where I didn't have the luxury of holding my Frogs for if/when I drew a Raiza. Plenty of times I had to squander frogs from the grave to throw Ronin on the field to protect my lp. Hell I summoned Gachi in the regional more often than I summoned Phoenix. Like I said a lot of matches were grinders and some of them if I had 1 more dead card I'd have lost. In testing I drew Snatcher too much without a Monarch while facing a scary field and decided that it wasn't worth it. I thought to myself "if this Snatcher was another Monarch/DDS/LADD I'd be in a much better position right now."
[quote]
Not digging Ladd too much right now. Thoughts?
[/quote]

LADD worked really well for me actually, it still shits on many matchups. I won a couple games just because of LADD, and other games I sided them out when I knew sided hate was coming in. But I like 2 mained. The only times they were bad for me were the times I had it and no Monarchs, while needing to deal with the opp's field, and also not having EC/Soul Exchange or any other way of double-sacking for it.
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I mean, fair enough. You had your testing and conclusions. I was just saying that my testing experiences have wildly differed.

The only match up I've had issues with has been Wind Ups, like I said. DW and Sams are no problem, Dragons are easy enough, Agents can get annoying with their Orange Light, but still very winnable.

Granted I haven't played against Geargia or Rock Stun. But I still think Wind Ups are a huge problem for this deck. Game 1 against them is very much in their favor, although if you can resolve a Vanity's Fiend and keep it on the field you win G2 and 3. Easier said than done, of course.

@Tygo, I still feel that resolving an early LADD wins too many games to drop it.
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Early game Ladd is probably one of the least efficient uses of tribute material. Any deck with a decent amount of backrow can just shit on it with ease.
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Early ladd? Why would you ever drop a Ladd if they have more than 5 cards or you dont have something good to bring back?
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I'm not meaning like turn 1-2. I was unclear. :/ I'm not entirely sure on the general consensus of how long/when early/mid/late game is either, so yeh. My bad.

/takes foot out of mouth

I still feel that Ladd is too good and wins too many games to cut.
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[quote name='Inari' timestamp='1346728873' post='3272085']
I played Frog Monarch at a regional on Saturday and started out 6-0 then lost the last 3 rounds to either B.S. or the short end of grind games. I felt like it would be a good choice for the first reg of the format and for the most part I was right, playing against multiple "free win" matchups like Sams and DW. Hero was kinda in the middle, could go either way depending on their hand. And Rabbit/Wind-up were the tough matchups due to their explosiveness and power, although if I survive a push the right combo of cards can fuck their field.

I did a lot of Soul Exchange+Mobius on ppl but wasn't thrilled to see the amount of BTH and Starlight Road that I did. I almost lost a game to Road but I had Fader to save myself. Fader, I realised pretty quickly in swiss, was very good against certain decks and I wished I had mained a second copy. Basically my deck was bare bones Monarchs and shit that brought out Monarchs. I wanted a Monarch play as early and often as possible, and didn't want randy draws and dead cards. That's why I opted not running TGU or Snatchers. Snatcher sounds great but in testing it was inconsistent and can be dead. Sometimes it's hard enough just waiting to draw a Monarch much less getting one out.

An interesting thing of note is that I felt like the frog engine was the weakest part of my deck. Sure the Treeborns and Swaps are great but Ronin and Dupe were far from ideal in numerous instances. They mostly served as chump blockers while waiting to get a play going. And I only Daigusto+Raiza'd once the whole day. Definitely an overrated combo although it's pretty cute. I just feel like something else could better fit the spots of the rest of the frogs imo.

I ended up 7-3 and that definitely wasn't good for a Reg imo. A lot of games were grinders, esp the ones I lost could have gone either way. I'm sure if I had had the cards to play WU or Geargia I'd have topped but o well I sold most of my stuff months ago and made money. The highlight of the day though was one of my opponents going balls-out ham with WUs game 3 complete with Shock Master (calling spells) and running his entire field into Mirror Force. He spent so long comboing out just to scoop his shit up in 0.01 sec lol. Mirror Force was great sided for me cause nobody sees it coming. They assume nothing is down but MST/EC and run right into it, and they side out s/t removal anyway. Ironically though my 3rd loss was to a guy who didn't side out MSTs and ripped one to hit my MF, which would've crippled him, then OTK'd me.

Overall I think Monarchs are ok but there are better decks out there. I'm gonna try some alternatives to the bulk of the frog engine though and see how that works.
[/quote]

I played a frog monarch deck for my reg on sat too, started out 5 - 0 and lost to a hero deck and 2 wind ups to fins 5 - 3. The games I dropped were getting shockmaster -> monster effects otk'd when I didn't draw a max c or veiler, and just getting otk via miracle fusion / blade ninja and super polying my trag/gorz. I also didn't run snatcher because when I was testing I would tend to draw him either with a ladd and no monarchs or hands full of frogs so I cut 2 of them for 2 maxx c since wind ups were everywhere in my area. Ladd wasn't very good for me either, I sided him out against heros and windups becuz of honest/shark inf loops and super polys.
Only thing I don't agree on is the frog engine not being needed. The only games I dropped were hands that didn't consist of swap/dupe but instead mutiple monarchs and soul exchanges/enemy controller. Having access to daigusto phoenix is huge, I only did the raiza combo twice all day but I still ened alot of games with phoenix.
I still really like this deck but with windups being everywhere I am not sure how viable it is.
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I won a regional this last Saturday with this build:

[spoiler]
x1 Black Luster Soldier
x2 Light and Darkness Dragon
x1 Gorz the Emissary of Darkenss
x1 Tragoedia
x3 Caius the Shadow Monarch
x3 Raiza the Storm Monarch
x2 Mobius the Frost Monarch
x2 Illusory Snatcher
x1 Battle Fader
x2 Effect Veiler
x3 Swap Frog
x2 Treeborn Frog
x2 Dupe Frog
x2 Ronintoadin

x3 Soul Exchange
x3 Enemy Controller
x2 Mystical Space Typhoon
x2 Pot of Duality
x1 Heavy Storm
x1 Dark Hole
x1 Monster Reborn

x2 Vanity's Fiend
x2 Jinzo
x2 Breaker the Magical Warrior
x2 Puppet Plant
x2 Maxx "C"
x2 D.D. Crow
x1 Dark Dust Spirit
x1 Mystical Space Typhoon
x1 Burial From the Different Dimension
[/spoiler]

It was a nine round regional. I played against four Hero decks, two Dino-Rabbit decks (one in top 8), one Dark World deck, one Geargia deck, one Blackwing Deck, and one Hero Bubble Beat, which was my only match loss (FTK'd twice). A properly timed LADD was just so powerful that sometimes I wished I played three to draw it more. I found that Illusory was a little underwhelming, dropping it only 4-5 times; not because that's all I drew it, but because I never just felt like I needed to drop it. I feel like some of my opinions may be biased, due to the lack of variety of decks I played against, but I had a deep hatred of Tragoedia, due to it's being the worst card ever against Skill Drain, and Jinzo was one of the best side deck cards. I feel like every time I drew it, it was just so good. The Burial in the side always seemed like a dead draw, but I still feel that the card is essential. I used it more to refuel Ronintoadin and disrupt Leviair or Gold Sarc plays more than returning my banished Treeborns/Ronins. The D.D. Crows proved to be much more useful than I anticipated, as well as the Breakers. Breakers just shat on almost every single side card against me: Mask of Restrict, Dimensional Fissure, Macro Cosmsos, Gozen Match, Prohibition, Kycoo, Fossil Dyna, etc. I think if I made changes I'd try to find room for a second Battle Fader, and possibly an Obelisk (I have a love/hate relationship with the card).

A bit of theory-oh I've been thinking about is Barbaros. I know the card has been discussed/played in Frogs before, and it's nothing new, but a mained copy along with another sided copy, or even just two sided seems like it could be ridiculously good. A 1900 normal summon worst case scenario or a 3000 beater that just nuked your opponent's field best case scenario. Just summoning a 3000 beater into an opponent's Skill Drain, turning one of the 'harder to cope with' cards into your own advantage, especially after they side in additional copies. And now, with Illusory Snatcher, tributing 3 monsters for a Barbaros gives you 5400 damage on board with your opponent's clear field, not to mention no opportunity to Starlight Road the Barb. Something I may consider testing in the next few weeks at locals. Anyways, that's my two cents for the time being.
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The beginning of every format usually does run too many traps. Jinzo is really good. At least in one game where they don't expect it. Victor brought up Psychic Shockwave a few weeks ago, and it's definitely something worth looking into. Anyone who played Goat Control knows how good CotH + Jinzo is. Also, CotH + Kuraz is a +1, and could be a +2 if your opponent MSTs your face-down Call. It's a project I'm working on.


Dat Slifer. Such a cool idea. Lets hope he's in ABYR SE. Regardless, I get so sad that you can't chain Snatcher to the God cards :( - I want Gustav Max!
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[quote name='arroganceclause' timestamp='1346764733' post='3272387']
The beginning of every format usually does run too many traps. Jinzo is really good. At least in one game where they don't expect it. Victor brought up Psychic Shockwave a few weeks ago, and it's definitely something worth looking into. Anyone who played Goat Control knows how good CotH + Jinzo is. Also, CotH + Kuraz is a +1, and could be a +2 if your opponent MSTs your face-down Call. It's a project I'm working on.


Dat Slifer. Such a cool idea. Lets hope he's in ABYR SE. Regardless, I get so sad that you can't chain Snatcher to the God cards :( - I want Gustav Max!
[/quote]

Thought about trying something like that (Jinzo Road), but when it comes down to it, way to many kids leave in their Typhoons and Heavy against me, and I [b]never[/b] want to give them a chance to use them. As for Gustav Max, enter: Tragoedia. ;)
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Has anyone thought of running 6/7 tributes with Geargias?

Armor is pretty good at creating tribute fodder, Geargias need to run alot of protection so the concept works well with Monarchs, Genex Ally Birdman is pretty busted for creating plays with Geargias and also recycle Monarchs.

something like 3 Caius+3 Raiza+1 Mobius with 3 Soul Exchange could be good, it helps fighting the floater monsters trend wich is developing (Geargias, Heroes) as well as giving Geargias some plays that don't need setup (Soul->Monarch).
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In response to the correct time to drop ladd I have found that people seem to drop it a bit later than they should my rule is once I have a monarch in grave ladd becomes a priority as there warning now reads pay 2000 life your opponent special summons a 2400 beater and honestly that seems good to me. plus some times they just dont have it and ladd single handidly wins you the game this is also acceptable
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[quote name='Predibus' timestamp='1346779709' post='3272516']
Has anyone thought of running 6/7 tributes with Geargias?

Armor is pretty good at creating tribute fodder, Geargias need to run alot of protection so the concept works well with Monarchs, Genex Ally Birdman is pretty busted for creating plays with Geargias and also recycle Monarchs.

something like 3 Caius+3 Raiza+1 Mobius with 3 Soul Exchange could be good, it helps fighting the floater monsters trend wich is developing (Geargias, Heroes) as well as giving Geargias some plays that don't need setup (Soul->Monarch).
[/quote]

Do you have a build? I'm always hesitant about using machines because there's just so much hate for them. What would make them more competitive than the frog engine? OR what to monarchs do for geargias to put them over the edge?
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This is what I've been running with lots of success, I was surprised because it's relevant to most posts in this topic lol;

Monsters; 29
3 Caius
3 Raiza
3 Light and Darkness Dragon
1 Mobius
3 Battle Fader
2 Tragoedia
1 Gorz
2 Effect Veiler
3 Swap Frog
2 Treeborn Frog
1 Ronintoadin
2 Illusory Snatcher
2 Tour guide of the Underworld
1 Sangan

Spells; 12
3 Enemy Controller
2 Mystical Space Typhoon
2 Soul Exchange
1 Allure of Darkness
1 Pot of Duality
1 Heavy Storm
1 Dark Hole
1 Monster Reborn

I havn't been finding a problem with 3 LADD and at 3 I'm also seeing him very consistently. 3 Battle fader is to not only support 3 LADD and the other tributes, but it also helps mitigate the possibility of your opponent exploding all over you. Having been running frogs because a) not really seeing as much hero decks/ rai-oh as I thought I would and b) I'm finding my other methods for tributes work slightly better then setting and waiting a turn. Plus I hate how dupe misses timing. and a second ronintoadin I usually find dead anyways. 3 Enemy controller is being used over 3 soul because controller is the better card in my opinion. Hardest match-ups I think have been DW and Wind-up so currently working on a side that works towards those match-ups.
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[quote name='dexer008' timestamp='1346805053' post='3272822']
This is what I've been running with lots of success, I was surprised because it's relevant to most posts in this topic lol;

Monsters; 29
3 Caius
3 Raiza
3 Light and Darkness Dragon
1 Mobius
3 Battle Fader
2 Tragoedia
1 Gorz
2 Effect Veiler
3 Swap Frog
2 Treeborn Frog
1 Ronintoadin
2 Illusory Snatcher
2 Tour guide of the Underworld
1 Sangan

Spells; 12
3 Enemy Controller
2 Mystical Space Typhoon
2 Soul Exchange
1 Allure of Darkness
1 Pot of Duality
1 Heavy Storm
1 Dark Hole
1 Monster Reborn

I havn't been finding a problem with 3 LADD and at 3 I'm also seeing him very consistently. 3 Battle fader is to not only support 3 LADD and the other tributes, but it also helps mitigate the possibility of your opponent exploding all over you. Having been running frogs because a) not really seeing as much hero decks/ rai-oh as I thought I would and b) I'm finding my other methods for tributes work slightly better then setting and waiting a turn. Plus I hate how dupe misses timing. and a second ronintoadin I usually find dead anyways. 3 Enemy controller is being used over 3 soul because controller is the better card in my opinion. Hardest match-ups I think have been DW and Wind-up so currently working on a side that works towards those match-ups.
[/quote] I dont hate the build but honestly I think going over 40 cards in frog monarchs is just wrong maxing your chance of getting frog in grave is too crucial it might not seem like a huge difference but it adds up over time
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Well at 41 cards I havn't had that huge of a difference, and it gives me a very slight chance of not opening up multiples of some stuff. I honestly havn't run into THAT much trouble if I didn't open a swap frog into treeborn play, I've had the soul exchanges and my hand traps to fall back on, as well as tour guide and sangan to search a frog.
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[quote name='dexer008' timestamp='1346806163' post='3272833']
Well at 41 cards I havn't had that huge of a difference, and it gives me a very slight chance of not opening up multiples of some stuff. I honestly havn't run into THAT much trouble if I didn't open a swap frog into treeborn play, I've had the soul exchanges and my hand traps to fall back on, as well as tour guide and sangan to search a frog.
[/quote]
I think you may have fallen into the trap of its tested well so its right and that's fair as I feel most of us have been there but I'm sure there is something you could cut to go down to 40 and I feel in a deck that wants to get to a specific card every single game that is the undeniably optimal set up
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I started at FrogNarchs a couple days ago. What "staple" trap cards does Illusory stop other than Starlight Road? Wikia was no help.
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