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orangeeyes

Fat rights, fat pride, fat-shaming, etc...

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»orangeeyes    11863
I have issues with a lot of online social justice causes (reddit, tumblr, etc.) due to their rhetoric. A lot of them forgo making a positive difference in favor of pure complaining and actively seeking out ways to blame majority groups/society for their problems. I could go more into this but I won't.

The SJ cause that interests me the most is fat pride and body acceptance. Now, like any decent human being I'm opposed to judging someone or thinking they're inferior based on how they look, obesity is included. But what interests me is how there is an entire social movement - in the vein of racial rights, gender equality, LGBT acceptance - for something that is presumably under the person's control. Eating chicken, doing drugs and committing crimes doesn't make someone's skin turn black over time, but eating a bunch of unhealthy food and being sedentary will make you fat over time.

It's one thing to be against bullying fat people, because against that's just being a good person, but actual "fat activists" tend to take it a step farther. Many of them claim that society systemically oppresses fat people, to the point where "thin privilege" is an actual term. Here is a totally serious list of privileges you enjoy by not being fat. Rustle warning:

[spoiler]I can be sure that people aren’t embarrassed to be seen with me because of the size of my body.

If I pick up a magazine or watch T.V. I will see bodies that look like mine that aren’t being lampooned, desexualized, or used to signify laziness, ignorance, or lack of self-control.

When I talk about the size of my body I can be certain that few other people will hope they are never the same size.

I do not have to be afraid that when I talk to my friends or family they will mention the size of my body in a critical manner, or suggest unsolicited diet products and exercise programs.

I will not be accused of being emotionally troubled or in psychological denial because of the size of my body.

I can go home from meetings, classes, and conversations and not feel excluded, fearful, attacked, isolated, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance, stereotyped, or feared because of the size of my body.

I never have to speak for size acceptance as a movement. My thoughts about my body can be my own with no need for political alliance relative to size.

I can be sure that when I go to a class, or movie, or restaurant that I will find a place to sit in which I am relatively comfortable.

I don’t have to worry that if I am talking about feeling of sexual attraction people are repelled or disgusted by the size of my body. People can imagine me in sexual circumstances.

People won’t ask me why I don’t change the size of my body.

My masculinity or femininity will not be challenged because of the size of my body.
I can be sure that if I need medical or legal help my size will not work against me.

I am not identified by the size of my body.

I can walk in public with my significant other and not have people double take or stare.

I can go for months without thinking about or being spoken to about the size of my body.

I am not grouped because of the size of my body.

I will never have to sit quietly and listen while other people talk about the ways in which they avoid being my size.

I don’t have to worry that won’t be hired for a job that I can do because of the size of my body.[/spoiler]

So yeah, some of these people are just crazy. However, if I wanted to just make fun of stupid people from the internet I wouldn't have started this thread in Debates. The questions/issues I want to discuss are:

-What valid points, if any, do these groups make?

-Is every overweight person, given that they're able-bodied otherwise, capable of losing weight? I often see the argument "just because it was easy for person A to lose weight doesn't mean it will be easy for person B to lose weight", but I'm not yet convinced that a significant percentage of overweight people have hereditary problems making it highly improbable they'll lose weight. I don't know enough about the science behind this though.

-Should overweight people lose insurance benefits for staying fat? This is assuming the legislation is actually objective and reasonable. Or is this just punitive and inhumane?

-Is "fat acceptance" okay? As in, should fat people be okay with their condition without anyone telling them otherwise?

-Check your privilege
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For starters, it is harder for some people to lose weight than others. It seems suspect when a fat person says, "I have a slow metabolism, and thats why I'm fat" but we take for granted that skinny men, who eat a ton have a fast metabolism, keeping them from being fat.

I have also read that most of the studies on the health effects of obesity are overblown. Weight on your thighs is significantly better than stomach weight. This sounds like pseudoscience but studies that have disaggregated obesity by location have found different results.

While obesity has been tied to heart disease and diabetes, mortality rates among the obese is lower than among the underweight. The morbidly obese do have higher rates of mortality but your average obese person isn't suffering a lower life expectancy.

I personally think we as a society eat like crap and don't maintain the level of physical activity that we are meant to. But at the same time, I'm underweight, and eat two slices of pizza every day and don't work out at all.

I don't expect myself to go out and be a fitness star, why would I begrudge someone else to live the same life style, even if they don't have the luxury of being skinny while doing it.

EDIT: CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE
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+Urthor    10229
Actual zero percent empathy for anyone who is fat, eating healthily is ridiculously easy.

I do sort of get that they are a product of their upbringing and got raised in a bad for food home with bad food habits often in a terrible country for eating in general, but it's actually never not their own fault and they can accept the costs of it which is me laughing at them behind their backs.

The whole metabolism thing is also load of crap in my opinion. Even though it is entirely true it doesn't excuse anything and the primary cause is childhood obesity rejigging your body to have more fat cells. also true that it's a lot harder to be thin if you have ever been fat once, but look it is entirely willpower just do it, being chained to a slice of pizza is really sad.
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»orangeeyes    11863
Someone on one of these blogs makes an interesting point: fat people that eat like shit are ostracized for eating like shit, but skinny people that eat like shit are usually just told "lol damn you're a garbage disposal."

I also question the metabolism aspect of the debate. I have a problem with the pro-fat (this is the term I'll use because I can't think of a better one) assumption that, ceteris paribus, some people just sort of become obese while others remain skinny, it's all genetic and they shouldn't be shamed by others for being dealt a bad hand. They miss that the "ceteris paribus" part is usually not true. Sure, there are skinny unhealthy people and fat unhealthy people, but I'm willing to assume that the fat people, regardless of genetic factors, did something or are doing something contributing to their weight that the always-skinny person never did.

As a part of the "skinny person that should be fat" group my whole life, I've noticed that other guys like me aren't just constantly stuffing food down their throats with no consequence because of their fast metabolism privileges. Many are still skinny-fat, while others engage in binge eating where they'll eat an obscene amount for particular meals (i.e. social settings, dinners) but don't constantly eat that much. This isn't to say that fat people are constantly stuffing food down their throats, I just think the "skinny = fast metabolism, fat = slow metabolism" can be a misconception in some ways.
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+rei+    34864
I am currently by medical terms 63 pounds over the maximum healthy weight for my height. I am in catagory Obese-II which is the worst you can get... I think. I really need to check again I've kind of been losing weight. Those who say BMI is bullshit don't matter - that is how the health care system will view you as overweight. Consider this as you discuss insurance implications.

This seems to get lost on a lot of people but in most cases if you are not actively gaming your body to be less hungry (which is how I've been losing my weight), weight loss - more accurately eating at caloric deficit - is really, really fucking painful. Like, not "oh its so haaard" lack of motivation, I mean it physically hurts and if you have to lose more than a few pounds the prospect of months to years of physical pain while deprived of what you've used as a primary source of satisfaction is not exactly a simple proposition. Because of this I tend to alienate people who have a "well just lose it" attitude. I also have difficulty accepting the attitude some people have that "oh you got yourself into this mess" when I was considered someone who got fat "later than most" - when i started putting on the weight i was a whopping seven years old. I have substantial issues ascribing blame to someone's current health state when it's something they did to themselves or had done to them before they were tying their own shoes.

It is additionally worth mentioning that while I don't want to use the term discrimination as it's not really 'accurate' - we don't get hassled by cops for being fat - there is certainly a different attitude that is taken towards you in most situations. I can't fully explore this as I am tall, and much more importantly male. Fat guys can be comedians, we can be funny, and we can be cute in a nerdy way sometimes. Think of any positive portrayal of a fat woman on television ever. There's not exactly a lot of positive imaging there, and a lot of people get their internal prejudices from the media they consume.


Those with hyperthyroidism cannot lose the weight htey have without a fuckload of medication as well. Most still cant lose it.



That said obesity is and of itself an indication of a health problem. I do not think it is acceptable to celebrate the existence of it or celebrate people for having it, I just expect that it be treated as a health problem and not as some triviality on how someone is worse at life or impulse control or whatever. I would like it if there were more token fat people in media but its not like im going to cause activism for that. They're not visually stimulating and that doesnt make money. rah rah capitalism etc.


So i'll just take your questions point by point

[quote]
[font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]-Is every overweight person, given that they're able-bodied otherwise, capable of losing weight? I often see the argument "just because it was easy for person A to lose weight doesn't mean it will be easy for person B to lose weight", but I'm not yet convinced that a significant percentage of overweight people have hereditary problems making it highly improbable they'll lose weight. I don't know enough about the science behind this though.[/quote][/size][/font]y
[font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]Answered above. Hyperthyroidism means they arent losing it ever. And even then, kind of chall. [/size][/font]
[quote]
[font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]-Should overweight people lose insurance benefits for staying fat? This is assuming the legislation is actually objective and reasonable. Or is this just punitive and inhumane?[/quote][/size][/font]
Lung cancer and smokers is a similar question if they started smoking in early childhood

[font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3][quote]-Is "fat acceptance" okay? As in, should fat people be okay with their condition without anyone telling them otherwise?[/quote][/size][/font]
[font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]People shouldn't be fucking assholes, i think thats a reasonable expectation. Everyone should have a fairly firm understanding assholes exist. Is there any validity to bullying someone over having glasses? No, but it happens and i dont think we should be pitching Glasses Acceptance speeches. Just don't be an ass. [/size][/font]
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+rei+    34864
Anyone who blames metabolism is fucking lying - your metabolism is not a set speed, it fluctuates with exercise levels and food consumption. They aren't trying hard enough if thats their excuse.
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Twitter    2057
[quote]I can be sure that when I go to a class, or movie, or restaurant that I will find a place to sit in which I am relatively comfortable.[/quote]

this is the only "valid" point i saw imo. even then, (in most cases, anyway) this is totally in the control of the "fat person." there are some people who just genetically have a hard time losing weight, but for the most part, I think the weight-loss is far from unattainable and very doable for the "fat person." i have tons of fat friends and they themselves know it doesnt take THAT much effort to lose the weight. I know this 1 girl who just genetically has trouble losing weight. She is well into the 300s and (i hear from her sister) that she works out often to try and lose weight and the progress is so minimal it even seems kind of discouraging to someone on the sidelines. but that is a very small percentage of fat people (i think).

idk if they should not be given insurance or lose benefits or anything like that, but when i see a fat person at like Target and see that they are on the scooter things, or even when fat people walk out of a car with a handicap thing, it kind of bothers me because I presume they have it due to them being fat, or they are too lazy to actually walk so they just get a scooter meant for actually disabled people. They might actually have a serious medical condition or handicap, but I have just seen too many people do it to believe they ALL fall under that category.

I think fat people have the right to be okay with themselves regardless of what other people think of them, but I dont think they have the right to have things accommodated for them just for being fat. I think there was even a point where airlines were charging them for 2 tickets or something? If they really were taking up 2 spots, then I think its completely fair game to charge them for 2 seats. (just kind of an aside lol)

I dont think I fall under fat or thin privilege. Im a little thick, but not to the point where people actively call me fat.
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+Gojira    1707
[quote name='Urthor' timestamp='1358463457' post='3373697']
Actual zero percent empathy for anyone who is fat, eating healthily is ridiculously easy.

I do sort of get that they are a product of their upbringing and got raised in a bad for food home with bad food habits often in a terrible country for eating in general, but it's actually never not their own fault and they can accept the costs of it which is me laughing at them behind their backs.

The whole metabolism thing is also load of crap in my opinion. Even though it is entirely true it doesn't excuse anything and the primary cause is childhood obesity rejigging your body to have more fat cells. also true that it's a lot harder to be thin if you have ever been fat once, but look it is entirely willpower just do it, being chained to a slice of pizza is really sad.
[/quote]
I meant to pos this.
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iamdark    508
I honestly don't believe that fat people are alone the people who are apparently large in weight by just looking. It's been shown that a lot of what appears to be skinny people, or normal weighed people -by sight only though- it was proved that when they actually measured their fat percentage that they had a lot of fats stored in, making them actually fat. If everything was on just sight, because I see someone who looks really fat, he might have less fat percentage that when you might see a skinny guy that has body fat but it is hidden.

I know this is not about it, but I believe that looks are not supposed to be the only factor, everyone should start taking care of themselves no matter how skinny they are or fat. if you don't even know that your fat percentage is high for you body even though they say that you are a skinny guy and ignore that, because it is not apparent, then that is still bad. You're ruining your health by that but you won't care unless everyone start seeing your belly right?

Anyway, back on the point of the topic, this metabolism thing rei talked about is pretty true. People expect that the metabolism you are born with is set either on fast, normal, or slow. People will think that a guy who eats a lot but doesn't gain anything is born with it and he is going to be fine with his life, that guy no one cares about him anyway. But, if let's say a fat guy have a slow metabolism, he will think that It's because mine was not like his where he could eat anything and don't gain anything unlike me, which is still another excuse and lame too.


I don't think that fat people should be given more than any human, nor should they be treated less than any in any case. I know that some might not have chose to become like this, and some have. But, at the same time I believe that we should just treat them the same as any human being. The topic of racism was covered pretty much, it exists right now but the world evolved from the point where black people were slaves, and how white people believed they are the purest race and all these stuff. And now, why don't we treat the obese the same as well? They are not more, nor are they less than human no matter what they did. Criminals too count as humans even for what they do.

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david101    4
[quote name='Urthor' timestamp='1358463457' post='3373697']
eating healthily is ridiculously easy.[/quote]
What planet are you living on?

Were you denied junk food all your life or something?

Eating healthy is not easy by any means. Sure it's doable, but most people that want to eat healthy lack one thing: self-control. They lack the ability to not choose that chocolate flavor granola bar over that small bowl of ice cream after dinner, even though they know which one is healthier for them.

I personally eat healthy as much as I can (weighing 195 pounds and being 6'1), but to call it easy is full of shit. I'm just able to exercise self-control when it comes to balancing my diet and exercise.

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+Urthor    10229
It's really simple, don't buy junk food, cook yourself nice tasting healthy food and drizzle it in a dressing of blended anchovies lemon juice chili and olive oil. Instread of making a pizza go buy some curry spices and buy enough chicken and marinate 3 meals worth of curry overnight so it'll be tomorrow's dinner and the next days lunch, and put one in the freezer. Don't buy big bags of sugar compressed into Lolly shapes and given bright colours, chop up 5 green apples, put them in a dish and mix oats brown sugar butter and coconut in roughly equal amounts and put it on as a topping and put it in the oven for half an hour, bonus points you are eating your dessert for breakfast the next day.

And dinner is meat vegtables and potatoes/brown rice/barley/risotto/pasta every day. Breakfst us a normal serial like special k or w/e not fruit loops or sone shit, or porridge or toast, lunch just make a sandwhich. Shit's not hard grow up.
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iamdark    508
[quote name='david101' timestamp='1358467597' post='3373740']
[quote name='Urthor' timestamp='1358463457' post='3373697']
eating healthily is ridiculously easy.[/quote]
What planet are you living on?

Were you denied junk food all your life or something?

Eating healthy is not easy by any means. Sure it's doable, but most people that want to eat healthy lack one thing: self-control. They lack the ability to not choose that chocolate flavor granola bar over that small bowl of ice cream after dinner, even though they know which one is healthier for them.

I personally eat healthy as much as I can (weighing 195 pounds and being 6'1), but to call it easy is full of shit. I'm just able to exercise self-control when it comes to balancing my diet and exercise.
[/quote]

http://duelistgroundz.com/index.php?showtopic=149475

Just leaving it here for you.

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+rei+    34864
[quote name='Urthor' timestamp='1358469393' post='3373760']
It's really simple, don't buy junk food, cook yourself nice tasting healthy food and drizzle it in a dressing of blended anchovies lemon juice chili and olive oil. Instread of making a pizza go buy some curry spices and buy enough chicken and marinate 3 meals worth of curry overnight so it'll be tomorrow's dinner and the next days lunch, and put one in the freezer. Don't buy big bags of sugar compressed into Lolly shapes and given bright colours, chop up 5 green apples, put them in a dish and mix oats brown sugar butter and coconut in roughly equal amounts and put it on as a topping and put it in the oven for half an hour, bonus points you are eating your dessert for breakfast the next day.

And dinner is meat vegtables and potatoes/brown rice/barley/risotto/pasta every day. Breakfst us a normal serial like special k or w/e not fruit loops or sone shit, or porridge or toast, lunch just make a sandwhich. Shit's not hard grow up.
[/quote]
You will not lose weight eating like that.
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Lamp    1424
[quote name='orangeeyes' timestamp='1358464125' post='3373701']I also question the metabolism aspect of the debate. I have a problem with the pro-fat (this is the term I'll use because I can't think of a better one) assumption that, ceteris paribus, some people just sort of become obese while others remain skinny, it's all genetic and they shouldn't be shamed by others for being dealt a bad hand. They miss that the "ceteris paribus" part is usually not true. Sure, there are skinny unhealthy people and fat unhealthy people, but I'm willing to assume that the fat people, regardless of genetic factors, did something or are doing something contributing to their weight that the always-skinny person never did.
[/quote]

There's overwhelming scientific support from twin studies that 40 to 80% of the population's variance in body weight is explained by genetic factors. The metabolism argument isn't some politically correct nonsense, it actually has scientific backing. I don't think there's any dietary expert who will deny that. Blow me off if I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone here claiming that there's no such thing as a genetic factor has actually looked into literature about it.
That isn't to say that this excuses every obese person from taking a look at their habits. One's lifestyle also has a huge effect on metabolism, but yeah, 'ceteris paribus', one person can end up obese and another won't.

The main cause for the epidemic of obesity in the West is obviously the big change in lifestyle that has occured over the course of the last 50 years. A) The food industry and culture has shifted dramatically towards less healthy food - that problem can be overcome. But B) We've also become a far more sedentary society, and that's something far harder to solve. You can't exercise on your 9-5 deskjob.


Something that's probably far more controversial is that in the next copy of DSM (if you're not familiar, it's the most widely accepted 'index' of mental disorders) obesity is now listed under mental disorders, particularily in the case of compulsive eating.
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iamdark    508
[quote name='rei' timestamp='1358470519' post='3373772']
[quote name='Urthor' timestamp='1358469393' post='3373760']
It's really simple, don't buy junk food, cook yourself nice tasting healthy food and drizzle it in a dressing of blended anchovies lemon juice chili and olive oil. Instread of making a pizza go buy some curry spices and buy enough chicken and marinate 3 meals worth of curry overnight so it'll be tomorrow's dinner and the next days lunch, and put one in the freezer. Don't buy big bags of sugar compressed into Lolly shapes and given bright colours, chop up 5 green apples, put them in a dish and mix oats brown sugar butter and coconut in roughly equal amounts and put it on as a topping and put it in the oven for half an hour, bonus points you are eating your dessert for breakfast the next day.

And dinner is meat vegtables and potatoes/brown rice/barley/risotto/pasta every day. Breakfst us a normal serial like special k or w/e not fruit loops or sone shit, or porridge or toast, lunch just make a sandwhich. Shit's not hard grow up.
[/quote]
You will not lose weight eating like that.
[/quote]

I already gave a link to the thread Paul made, It at least shouldn't be hard to work on, and actually works.

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rei, it is hypothyroidism that makes people have trouble losing weight. Hyperthyroidism makes you super skinny, and your eyes bulge out.

To everyone else, is taking away their health insurance even an option? What the fuck? People having health risks is what insurance is about. Some people are healthier than others and when you all pay premiums some people use more insurance benefits than others.

Lets also ban sick people, smokers, old people and everyone else who use insurance benefits more than young healthy people.
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+rei+    34864
My bad - I actually assumed it was just one disorder encompassing thyroid failure the more you know.



Secret: rice and potatos are the worst things to eat to lose weight btw. [google "glycemic index" and its effects for details!]
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Lamp    1424
[quote name='Mr.Dark-B' timestamp='1358470751' post='3373777']
[quote name='rei' timestamp='1358470519' post='3373772']
[quote name='Urthor' timestamp='1358469393' post='3373760']
It's really simple, don't buy junk food, cook yourself nice tasting healthy food and drizzle it in a dressing of blended anchovies lemon juice chili and olive oil. Instread of making a pizza go buy some curry spices and buy enough chicken and marinate 3 meals worth of curry overnight so it'll be tomorrow's dinner and the next days lunch, and put one in the freezer. Don't buy big bags of sugar compressed into Lolly shapes and given bright colours, chop up 5 green apples, put them in a dish and mix oats brown sugar butter and coconut in roughly equal amounts and put it on as a topping and put it in the oven for half an hour, bonus points you are eating your dessert for breakfast the next day.

And dinner is meat vegtables and potatoes/brown rice/barley/risotto/pasta every day. Breakfst us a normal serial like special k or w/e not fruit loops or sone shit, or porridge or toast, lunch just make a sandwhich. Shit's not hard grow up.
[/quote]
You will not lose weight eating like that.
[/quote]

I already gave a link to the thread Paul made, It at least shouldn't be hard to work on, and actually works.
[/quote]

It has absolutely no basis in science. It selectively quotes one part of the paper it uses to support its basic principle and then ignores the rest of it.

I don't intend to say that it won't work for some people - Paul probably knows more about fitness than every poster in this thread combined - but it's by no means a miracle solution for obesity.

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iamdark    508
Well, that's what I specified. I said that It isn't hard to work on, but actually works. I didn't mean that every obese person will do this and will work on, in-fact some people are just not meant for it to happen, but sharing this would seem better to test if this will actually help a bit even for a little.

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+rei+    34864
[quote name='Mr.Dark-B' timestamp='1358473221' post='3373800']
Well, that's what I specified. I said that It isn't hard to work on, but actually works. I didn't mean that every obese person will do this and will work on, in-fact some people are just not meant for it to happen, but sharing this would seem better to test if this will actually help a bit even for a little.
[/quote]
No one's meant for anything. NO FATEB UT WHAT WE MAKE DIDNT YOU SEE TERMINATOR 2


But seriously losing weight is always about caloric deficit, that IS science. The trick is getting there in the least challenging way possible.

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+Urthor    10229
I'd point out that I said eat healthily, I don't know shit about losing weight but I'd be sure a lot of raw, hard to digest and not energy rich foods like the brown rice and barley I really emphasized would prove to be about right, pasta and potatoes are legit just not in that situation. Cut out breakfast and add in canned fish which I missed and substitute a massive bag of almonds for lunch and I'd call it a really shitty eat nothing diet where you eat the bare minimum of brown rice veggies and tuna/beans to stay alive.

I agree genetics play a massive part in body weight, but I don't agree they play a role in determining what percentage of that is body fat. There are 195cm guys built with large muscles and thighs (Paul) who will never beat 85kg in their lives, but there is no reason they can't work on losing almost all of their fat to the point they can have a respectable pair of abs, to use a really extremist metaphor. It's not about weight it's about fat, and it's that giant belly that you shouldn't have but for your lifestyle decisions, even though it might be easier for some people than others to lose it.

On insurance, if smokers get it fat guys should too, not to punitive levels but fair compensation. Arguably you could increase it to a degree to compensate for the fact it is a lot harder to quit smoking even though it's more dangerous.
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+rei+    34864
brown rice is very calorie dense and high GI (which spikes hunger later and fucks your insulin if you're already fat)

I dont think Paul is 195 cm ; )

And like, the point your missing is switching to healthy foods does not magically create the caloric deficit to lose weight, your body will strain and demand quantities of healthy food to meet its caloric expectation regardless. Consiously shooting under this number isn't easy - I explained that above.

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Forest    311
It's hard for me to believe how Urthor is being negged in this thread, especially as someone that was once 350 lbs and now weighs 170 lbs. Having been in that situation and changing my lifestyle, I agree with Urthor completely. I'm not saying that it's easy, and it's quite a daunting task, yet the bottom line is that by changing your diet, limiting your calories, and getting up off your butt will make the vast majority of individuals lose weight. There are some where this will not be the case (hypothyroidism, etc.), and certainly genetics do play a factor. I also come from an overweight/obese family -- I was constantly told I was just a big guy, it was in my genes. Yet, when I actually stuck with a diet plan (food/calories/exercise), I did lose weight. You have to have the drive, you must develop the willpower. I worked at Jenny Craig for nearly 1.5 years, and the only successful clients I ever had were those that came into the program with the mentality "no matter what, I will lose this weight," or were able to develop it at a later time. Those that did not have this mentality did not lose the weight. I now work at The Biggest Loser Resort, it's the exact same thing. There are numerous clients that return multiple times -- they are unsuccessful when they return home because they have unrealistic goals and expectations, primarily not developing plans they will stick with for the long-term. I wanted to believe long-term weight loss had a much larger scale and gradation of success, but it's unfortunately (or fortunately) very black and white. You stick with it and do it, or you don't.

I'll come back and comment on the social aspects later, but I thought this was important to contribute.
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Forest    311
I also want to throw out that nearly every individual, including myself, that fell/falls into the obese category, has some emotional limitation they must overcome in order to be successful with weight loss. People that fall into this category use food as a drug and their weight as a crutch, a physical manifestation of their emotional limitation. Unless these individuals do some very deep soul searching and learn to overcome their damaging emotions, they simply will not be successful. It doesn't matter the route they go about this -- be it psychology, alternative therapies, etc. -- they must learn to come to grips with their emotions on a daily basis, and learn to make conscious decisions regarding their weight. You'll find when they learn to make conscious decisions in general regarding the actions they make in life, the weight simply falls off as a result. This doesn't apply only to obese individuals, but nearly all obese individuals I've worked with do. I also think much research that has been conducted into weight loss has done a great disservice to these particular individuals and our culture at large -- it's much easier to blame your genetics, family/friends, fast food/cheap food, than personal responsibility (again, not saying these don't have some ramification, but they are frequently scapegoats to the true issue). By taking the focus away from personal responsibility it seems a culture of learned helplessness has developed.
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»Ryu    2416
ash what do you mean losing weight is "really, really fucking painful"? about a year and a half ago i lost over 80 lbs over like 6 months or so. ive gained 20 back since (working on it lols) but i really dont get what you mean
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