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Fat rights, fat pride, fat-shaming, etc...

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»Pharaoh Atem    15772
I kind of think that when we lose weight for reasons beyond our health alone, we're subscribing to a notion that people who don't fit a certain aesthetic image are inferior beings.

Insofar as this, people who don't fit that aesthetic should be happy not to fit it, when the issue is something as petty as body proportions.

Insofar as the matter of health, control of one's intake and output is paramount.


We are warranted to tell people to exercise and eat right REGARDLESS of the shape their body takes; but only people who pay attention to nutrition follow this. This is generally point one where a heavier-looking individual can consider himself harassed: at that point, the pestering isn't "you're unhealthy", it's "you're shaped funny."

Complaint about one's shape is essentially different from complaining about how in-shape a person is: complaining about one's shape is essentially as petty as criticism for wearing glasses, being short, or some other irrelevant physical quality. This is where a relation to racism can be drawn: there's nowhere near as much bad blood and genocide, but there's an equal amount of pettiness. Once you tear away the crime of genocide from the harshest forms of oppression, only one thing remains - petty things dictating bullshit behavior. The "I'm gonna mock a round guy for being round, regardless of how healthy he is" issue is just that same pettiness aimed at a different target, and with no genocide backup.


Folks who push for others to lose weight simply to fit an aesthetic image essentially come across as being tainted w/ the same pettiness - then again, this pettiness is also what sells makeup.


Give a man a substantive reason to lose or gain weight, and he will do so as long as will and method exist. "Do it or I'll make fun of you" isn't substantive, but it's treated in general with similar seriousness - this is where the "shaming" part is manifest.
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»Pharaoh Atem    15772
[quote name='Revision' timestamp='1358477446' post='3373844']
I also want to throw out that nearly every individual, including myself, that fell/falls into the obese category, has some emotional limitation they must overcome in order to be successful with weight loss. People that fall into this category use food as a drug and their weight as a crutch, a physical manifestation of their emotional limitation. Unless these individuals do some very deep soul searching and learn to overcome their damaging emotions, they simply will not be successful. It doesn't matter the route they go about this -- be it psychology, alternative therapies, etc. -- they must learn to come to grips with their emotions on a daily basis, and learn to make conscious decisions regarding their weight. You'll find when they learn to make conscious decisions in general regarding the actions they make in life, the weight simply falls off as a result. This doesn't apply only to obese individuals, but nearly all obese individuals I've worked with do. I also think much research that has been conducted into weight loss has done a great disservice to these particular individuals and our culture at large -- it's much easier to blame your genetics, family/friends, fast food/cheap food, than personal responsibility (again, not saying these don't have some ramification, but they are frequently scapegoats to the true issue). By taking the focus away from personal responsibility it seems a culture of learned helplessness has developed.
[/quote]

I disagree in the sense that I find it less about learned helplessness and more about a sort of "I'm just doing it to please X person, rather than for some more worthwhile reason."

When our health is on the line - as Ash so exemplifies - we see the pounds fall easily, because there is PURPOSE beyond the mundane. It's about survival, not about tepid posturing.

I guess what I can say is this - the issue is complex simply because it's hard to envision a fat man as the equal to an average one in all respects bar mere physical shell. Something *has* to be wrong with the heavier-looking one, and thus we hunt for something to chop at.

It's the same reason we like uglier people less.
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»Pharaoh Atem    15772
[quote name='Revision' timestamp='1358475419' post='3373822']
It's hard for me to believe how Urthor is being negged in this thread, especially as someone that was once 350 lbs and now weighs 170 lbs. Having been in that situation and changing my lifestyle, I agree with Urthor completely. I'm not saying that it's easy, and it's quite a daunting task, yet the bottom line is that by changing your diet, limiting your calories, and getting up off your butt will make the vast majority of individuals lose weight. There are some where this will not be the case (hypothyroidism, etc.), and certainly genetics do play a factor. I also come from an overweight/obese family -- I was constantly told I was just a big guy, it was in my genes. Yet, when I actually stuck with a diet plan (food/calories/exercise), I did lose weight. You have to have the drive, you must develop the willpower. I worked at Jenny Craig for nearly 1.5 years, and the only successful clients I ever had were those that came into the program with the mentality "no matter what, I will lose this weight," or were able to develop it at a later time. Those that did not have this mentality did not lose the weight. I now work at The Biggest Loser Resort, it's the exact same thing. There are numerous clients that return multiple times -- they are unsuccessful when they return home because they have unrealistic goals and expectations, primarily not developing plans they will stick with for the long-term. I wanted to believe long-term weight loss had a much larger scale and gradation of success, but it's unfortunately (or fortunately) very black and white. You stick with it and do it, or you don't.

I'll come back and comment on the social aspects later, but I thought this was important to contribute.
[/quote]

He doesn't make his points well at all, to be honest. Being well-spoken is one thing, sure, but he's well-spoken yet out of his depth in certain ways. He's no idiot, but I shouldn't have to explain some potentially ghastly oversights implied by his words.
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[quote name='Pharaoh Atem' timestamp='1358490694' post='3374063']
[quote name='Revision' timestamp='1358477446' post='3373844']
I also want to throw out that nearly every individual, including myself, that fell/falls into the obese category, has some emotional limitation they must overcome in order to be successful with weight loss. People that fall into this category use food as a drug and their weight as a crutch, a physical manifestation of their emotional limitation. Unless these individuals do some very deep soul searching and learn to overcome their damaging emotions, they simply will not be successful. It doesn't matter the route they go about this -- be it psychology, alternative therapies, etc. -- they must learn to come to grips with their emotions on a daily basis, and learn to make conscious decisions regarding their weight. You'll find when they learn to make conscious decisions in general regarding the actions they make in life, the weight simply falls off as a result. This doesn't apply only to obese individuals, but nearly all obese individuals I've worked with do. I also think much research that has been conducted into weight loss has done a great disservice to these particular individuals and our culture at large -- it's much easier to blame your genetics, family/friends, fast food/cheap food, than personal responsibility (again, not saying these don't have some ramification, but they are frequently scapegoats to the true issue). By taking the focus away from personal responsibility it seems a culture of learned helplessness has developed.
[/quote]

I disagree in the sense that I find it less about learned helplessness and more about a sort of "I'm just doing it to please X person, rather than for some more worthwhile reason."

When our health is on the line - as Ash so exemplifies - we see the pounds fall easily, because there is PURPOSE beyond the mundane. It's about survival, not about tepid posturing.

I guess what I can say is this - the issue is complex simply because it's hard to envision a fat man as the equal to an average one in all respects bar mere physical shell. Something *has* to be wrong with the heavier-looking one, and thus we hunt for something to chop at.

It's the same reason we like uglier people less.
[/quote]

isn't this mostly artificial? standards of health and beauty vary. in some times and places, being fat was considered beautiful. likewise someone regarded as ugly in one culture might be regarded as beautiful in another

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+rei+    34854
Urthor is being negged because he's oversimplifying a solution without considering its implications; or is offering a solution that just doesn't work.
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+rei+    34854
[quote name='Pharaoh Atem' timestamp='1358490694' post='3374063']
When our health is on the line - as Ash so exemplifies - we see the pounds fall easily, because there is PURPOSE beyond the mundane. It's about survival, not about tepid posturing.
[/quote]
Not actually true.

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Jesus the Jew    986
[img]http://questionsforwomen.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/rubens-the-three-graces-1639.jpg?w=255&h=300[/img]

Here is a prime example of Mr. T's point from the 17th century. Throughout history, slender women are more desired in times of plenty (like today) and fatter women are more desirable in time periods/places where food is scarcer.
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Bazoo    5700
well hello there, I didn't expect this thread to become "I'd Hit It: Part 2"
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Lamp    1424
[quote name='Urthor' timestamp='1358474264' post='3373812'][size=4]I agree genetics play a massive part in body weight, but I don't agree they play a role in determining what percentage of that is body fat. There are 195cm guys built with large muscles and thighs (Paul) who will never beat 85kg in their lives, but there is no reason they can't work on losing almost all of their fat to the point they can have a respectable pair of abs, to use a really extremist metaphor.[/size]
[/quote]

How about having a job and a family to look after? Paul's a student, he can spend a lot of time in the gym.
Of course genetics play a role in your percentage of body fat. That you can counteract its influence through your lifestyle doesn't mean it's not a factor, nobody thinks there's no genetic factor to intelligence because you can have good education. The hereditary factor can be overcome, but it's not just a matter of ''man up and go to the gym'', there's actually really complicated societal and psychological factors at work there for some obese people.


[quote name='Pharaoh Atem' timestamp='1358490694' post='3374063']
When our health is on the line - as Ash so exemplifies - we see the pounds fall easily, because there is PURPOSE beyond the mundane. It's about survival, not about tepid posturing.
[/quote]

That's like saying depressive people will just lighten up when we tell them about the health risks involved.

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[quote name='Jesus the Jew' timestamp='1358514588' post='3374210']
[img]http://questionsforwomen.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/rubens-the-three-graces-1639.jpg?w=255&h=300[/img]

Here is a prime example of Mr. T's point from the 17th century. Throughout history, slender women are more desired in times of plenty (like today) and fatter women are more desirable in time periods/places where food is scarcer.
[/quote]

Availability of food has had nothing to do with it since the Victorian era. Cultural norms of beauty have changed since the 1960s in the United States and availability of food has remained stable.
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+rei+    34854
[quote name='Lamp' timestamp='1358518026' post='3374230']
[quote name='Pharaoh Atem' timestamp='1358490694' post='3374063']
When our health is on the line - as Ash so exemplifies - we see the pounds fall easily, because there is PURPOSE beyond the mundane. It's about survival, not about tepid posturing.
[/quote]

That's like saying depressive people will just lighten up when we tell them about the health risks involved.
[/quote]
I want to re-emphasize this as using me as an example is borderline hurtful seeing as in the time period between October 2011 when I got the shape up conversation and September 13 2012 when I induced into ketosis I only lost 15 lbs and 10 of it was in the first month. I am very bothered by being a pawn in this argument in the wrong direction.

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»orangeeyes    11863
you did it to me too

check your good vision privilege everyone

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+rei+    34854
[quote name='Urthor' timestamp='1358469393' post='3373760']
It's really simple, don't buy junk food, cook yourself nice tasting healthy food and drizzle it in a dressing of blended anchovies lemon juice chili and olive oil. Instread of making a pizza go buy some curry spices and buy enough chicken and marinate 3 meals worth of curry overnight so it'll be tomorrow's dinner and the next days lunch, and put one in the freezer. Don't buy big bags of sugar compressed into Lolly shapes and given bright colours, chop up 5 green apples, put them in a dish and mix oats brown sugar butter and coconut in roughly equal amounts and put it on as a topping and put it in the oven for half an hour, bonus points you are eating your dessert for breakfast the next day.

And dinner is meat vegtables and potatoes/brown rice/barley/risotto/pasta every day. Breakfst us a normal serial like special k or w/e not fruit loops or sone shit, or porridge or toast, lunch just make a sandwhich. Shit's not hard grow up.
[/quote]
I'm quoting this again to re-emphasize this is the least informed post I think that has ever occured on duelistgroundz.
Your body will treat the sugar in a lollypop the exactly the same way it treats the sugar in your risotto or pasta. Well, almost. High fructose corn syrup is kind of a weird variable.

Insulin reactions be awesome. Same with GI spikes.


> don't buy big bags of sugar-
> pasta potatos risotto rice porridge toast special k
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mainestroke    317
"Eating chicken, doing drugs and committing crimes doesn't make someone's skin turn black over time"

I knew it!


On topic though, in my case I went from weighing 190lbs. to 234lbs. (I almost shat bricks when i noticed the change in numbers last week).

And it had to do with one thing: NEGLECT.

I wasn't exercizing at all. I was'nt eating right meals. I was eating trash. I spent my days lax for over 7 months. Most importantly, I was'nt aware of what I was doing with my time.

My brother would tell me (after doing push-ups, crunches, weights), that I was getting fat and ugly + eventual pot-bellied.

I shrugged it off. But the numbers stuck in my head. 234lbs and look flabby?

It has to do with what Urthor said already, "grow up". Stop playing games/computer/tv/"hangingout" and take the time to educate yourself on health and exercise to DEVELOP THE HABITS that'll inevitably produce change.

Fuck yes its tough, but get with it. Otherwise, keep blaming the junk food and exaggerating your "metabolism" or accepting/promoting unfit/overweight/obessity.
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+rei+    34854
Ignoring your anecdote entirely, I feel that blaming junk food is a straw man that has not been built except by you and urthor. No one is blaming junk food except maybe david. Percieved healthy foods (esp rice and pasta) are just as likely to fuck you obesity wise.





As per your anecdote yourself, how long did it take you to drop the 44 lbs to get back to 190?
And how many calories do you think push ups and crunches burn compared to the calories in a single banana?



I'm editing this now actually, go fuck yourself. Seriously
You built a straw man and are now attacking people for "accepting" obesity.
Obesity is by its definition a health problem - you are being dismissive of individuals with a health problem because they have a health problem. Regardless of circumstance thisi s douchebag behaviour. It's like judging someone with lung cancer. They may have never smoked a day in their life [i]but prejudging them as if they did is wrong; and even if they were a smoker simply dismissing their life-threatening illness because it was on some level self-induced is an oversimplification and shockingly ignorant[/i].
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mainestroke    317
[quote name='Urthor' timestamp='1358463457' post='3373697']
Actual zero percent empathy for anyone who is fat, eating healthily is ridiculously easy.

I do sort of get that they are a product of their upbringing and got raised in a bad for food home with bad food habits often in a terrible country for eating in general, but it's actually never not their own fault and they can accept the costs of it which is me laughing at them behind their backs.

The whole metabolism thing is also load of crap in my opinion. Even though it is entirely true it doesn't excuse anything and the primary cause is childhood obesity rejigging your body to have more fat cells. also true that it's a lot harder to be thin if you have ever been fat once, but look it is entirely willpower just do it, being chained to a slice of pizza is really sad.
[/quote]

I want to point out how there's unnecessary hate here.

I've zero problem with someone being fat, and you can't really judge them. But you also can't deny they are careless/unaware about their health.

Just because you don't agree with their health habits it doesn't mean you're going to treat them or think of them as "inferiors".

That's bullshit.

No one goes from their Linear Algebra class to somewhere like a World Literature class and bufoons them "cuz they don't know what a matrix is rofl".

People struggle with certain factors (whether under their control or not), and just because some of their problems at visible it doesn't make them idiots.

(actually meant to neg)
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+rei+    34854
Rebound pos, but understand you came across as echoing his sentiment in the last sentence of your previous post.
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»Ryu    2416
[quote name='Ryu' timestamp='1358486978' post='3374016']
ash what do you mean losing weight is "really, really fucking painful"? about a year and a half ago i lost over 80 lbs over like 6 months or so. ive gained 20 back since (working on it lols) but i really dont get what you mean
[/quote]

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+rei+    34854
I mean when i was eating 2100 calories a day [ a 700 calorie deficit off of my basal metabolic rate] prior to keto I experienced physical pain due to hunger and witnessed my own personality deteriaring slightly as I became far more angry and irritable.

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Lamp    1424
itt anecdotal evidence

Junk food [i]is[/i] responsible for a lot of obesity, but not because it inherently makes you gain more weight. The high fat and sodium levels just gives you a lot of satisfaction for ingesting it but you get almost no feeling of satiety. That fucks with your brain and a lot of people end up unconsciously overeating themselves if they're not aware of that.
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+rei+    34854
[quote name='Lamp' timestamp='1358535759' post='3374419']
itt anecdotal evidence

Junk food [i]is[/i] responsible for a lot of obesity, but not because it inherently makes you gain more weight. The high fat and sodium levels just gives you a lot of satisfaction for ingesting it but you get almost no feeling of satiety. That fucks with your brain and a lot of people end up unconsciously overeating themselves if they're not aware of that.
[/quote]
Fat actually ties to satiety, the reason you don't feel it is the sugars causing an insulin spike
However nonrye bread, pasta and rice etc also cause said insulin spike which is why I turn them into whipping boys so frequently.
It's all glycogen inside.


anecdotal:
since sep 13 65% of my calories come from fat

not as anecdotal:
inducing ketosis is pretty well researched due to its treatment of epilepsy and all research on it supports a fat level that high [i]if you're actually in ketosis[/i]

I would not reccomend having a 65/30/5 FPC split in normal circumstances.

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»Ryu    2416
[quote name='rei' timestamp='1358534939' post='3374416']
I mean when i was eating 2100 calories a day [ a 700 calorie deficit off of my basal metabolic rate] prior to keto I experienced physical pain due to hunger and witnessed my own personality deteriaring slightly as I became far more angry and irritable.
[/quote]
thats u doing it wrong. you can still eat healthy without having to endure hunger pangs as long as you are exercising. in general i would definitely not characterize weight loss as "really, really fucking physically painful" outside really demanding workouts and the resulting soreness afterwards

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mainestroke    317
[quote name='rei' timestamp='1358534626' post='3374410']
Rebound pos, but understand you came across as echoing his sentiment in the last sentence of your previous post.
[/quote]
Woah sir...

I was referring to how some people do have the access to improve their health habits to change. I do understand there's innate factors that contribute to obesity and calorie absorbing.

And no, I'm currently 234lbs, found out last week. I hadn't weighed myself for 6-7 months back when I weighed 195lbs. That's why I said in my case, like many others, that unwanted/unexpected change came from pure neglect of myself, and I acknowledge that for primarily for my case.


I was agreeing with Urthor's point on [u]acknowledging what [b]you[/b] are/aren't doing to help [b]yourself[/b][/u].

But there's no frigging need to go phobic-mode/nazi on fat people, and that's what I was explaining in my latter post.


NP. :S
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+Urthor    10229
When I said "laughing at them behind their backs" I was going way too far in what I meant lol. But yeah if you're obese I judge you kinda harshly for it, probably as badly as if you were walking around with really bad BO if you want an analogy, but I mean the guys who are really embarrassingly fat, less so the guys who are shooting 90 plus kg and are just overweight but still get out.


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[quote name='ThePedanticGentleman' timestamp='1358523124' post='3374257']
[quote name='Jesus the Jew' timestamp='1358514588' post='3374210']
[img]http://questionsforwomen.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/rubens-the-three-graces-1639.jpg?w=255&h=300[/img]

Here is a prime example of Mr. T's point from the 17th century. Throughout history, slender women are more desired in times of plenty (like today) and fatter women are more desirable in time periods/places where food is scarcer.
[/quote]

Availability of food has had nothing to do with it since the Victorian era. Cultural norms of beauty have changed since the 1960s in the United States and availability of food has remained stable.
[/quote]

well if u go back to before then, there was such a correlation in china

fat was beautiful because it represented excess food

bound feet were beautiful because it represented excess labor; i.e. you can afford to have a trophy wife rather than a farming wife

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