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Marsh-I-OH! aka Marshall Balla's homebrew YGO Redux

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So I was looking at the way the game has been over the past few years, and for nostalgia's sake I rewatched a couple of old episodes of the original cartoon and I thought to myself about the mysticism and depth that the game seemed to have, that really turned into a lot of bad things over the course of the past decade+. And the, I thought to myself: "what if yugioh started over?" I decided to start playing with some ideas about how certain mechanics work and about how card design was basically forced to evolve for the sake of maintaining balance. And it occurred to me that it would be a neat idea to try and come up with my own incarnation of the game with homebrewed cards, that used the base rule set, but followed some guidelines that we didn't realize were important until it was already too late.

 

Things to consider:

1) Resources need to matter.

2) Cards need congruence to function together.

3) Too much congruence leads to cookie cutter decks.

4) Niche mechanics are bad, and once they get hit by the banlist they disappear.

5) Too many things don't get used because of reasons 2-4.

 

Re experiencing the first season of yugioh there were a lot of ideas around that never seemed to actually happen because the game took things out of context and had a lot more fluff for the purpose of story telling. So rather than try and incorporate that, the game evolved and just ignored it. Things like machines being resistant to magic, dinosaurs being weak to fire, and other such things that had actually affected the games, but never got explained.

 

I have also recently been doing a lot of other table topping, mainly with RPGs, and I notices a lot of parallels between the way card games get played and the way other games get played. There are tier systems, there are niches, there are mechanics and rules. Taking those ideas and doing a yugioh Redux became a much more interesting idea than some crazy lopsided light bulb above my head one night when I was drunk.

 

Things in the game that are good and should be kept:

1) Card Types, the front row and the back row.

2) Summoning Mechanics and levels.

3) Resources being important, i.e. card advantage.

 

Things that should change:

1) Availability of power cards.

2) Reliance on luck.

3) Speed granted by power cards.

4) No cards should be considered worthless and ignored.

 

First, the main thing to note is that starting out, assume no cards exist, and that we (I) are making a core set based on some very simple principals. Power has a cost, and advantage matters. We can skip creating filler cards, and create a rule set that our designs fit into.

 

Games still start at 8000, you still draw 5 cards, you still have a draw phase, standby phase, main phase etc. Card varieties will remain the same, but there will be different ways of handling them. The main difference is bringing in the rules about Summoning Sickness and Special Summons. Other things have to do with making certain mechanics viable (such as generic fusions) and designing the cards around basic ideas about the way the mechanics should work.

 

Looking at changes:

Monster cards

 

Still, there are two types of monster cards that exist in the players deck: Normal Monsters, and Effect Monsters. As a general rule, normal monsters will have more power than effect monsters, but effect monsters will have more uses as far as strategy goes.

 

Fusion Monsters and mechanics will change slightly. Fusions were played off as being super powerful and amazing ways to create super monsters that beat all kinds of ass. I want to keep that, make them matter. The only real way to do that is make fusions more attractive to competitive minded players i.e. they shouldn't waste advantage, and thus we have my first homebrew card:

Fusion

Normal Spell

Banish from your hand, side of the field, or Graveyard, materials listed on a Fusion Monster Card in your Extra Deck; Special Summon that monster.

Essentially, all fusions will work like Miracle Fusion, but making them easier to summon means we need to balance them. As a rule of thumb, since Fusions will be easier to bust out than pretty much all other extra deck monsters (advantage wise) they should lack utility. Thus, most fusion monsters will be treated like the Normal Monsters of the Extra Deck, that is, most won't have effects. They also need to be flexible. They won't have specific materials, most of them will just require monsters of different types. E.G. 1 Spellcaster + 1 Warrior, or 2 Dragons, etc.

 

Synchro Monsters require specific kinds of monsters (tuners) and they require the materials to already be on the field, thus they will be like the Effect Monsters of the Extra Deck. We will see monsters with cool effects, but less power stat-wise.

 

XYZ monsters are super easy to summon, but their effects run out of gas very quickly. These cards will have the bomb effects that would be game breaking if you could use them more than once or twice.

 

Ritual Monsters originally were the baddest of asses, and broke games in the original series. Their mechanics make them damn near unplayable in the competitive game unless the deck is specifically built for it. One of the main reasons is because of the need for pieces. Ritual Monsters will change the most, and will be held in the Extra Deck. They will be bosses, still difficult to summon, but worth it. Where fusions can use their materials from anywhere but the deck, rituals will require monsters on the field, but you will only need to draw the Ritual Spell Card appropriate for the card you want to summon. You can't just rip a Fusion off the top of the deck and drop a boss ritual, you need the correct ritual card to summon the ritual monster from your extra deck.

 

Monsters themselves have types and attributes. The attributes will stay the same but we will see a reduction in the number of types, mainly because there are just so many that it becomes worthless to expand on them. Each type will have certain game play styles associated with them that should ideally create the feel of Machines are super powerful, but immune to magic, and Dinosaurs are extremely powerful. The types will have the mechanics attached to them, rather than creating archetypes for the cards that create silly niche mechanics like spell counters, bushido counters, cards with X in their name, etc.

 

Attributes: Dark, Light, Fire, Water, Earth, Wind, Divine

 

The same seven as we currently have.

 

Types: Animal, Dragon, Elemental, Fairy, Fiend, Fish, God, Insect, Machine, Plant, Psychic, Reptilian, Spellcaster, Warrior, Undead

 

A lot of types that get affected by the same card types (like cards that affect all Beast, Beast-Warrior, and Winged-Beast cards) get consolidated, because for the most part, all the same cards work on them anyway, and mechanically there's no real reason not to consider them the same thing.

 

Beasts, Beast-Warriors, and Winged Beasts all become Animals.

Aquas, Pyros, Tnunders, and Rocks all become Elementals.

Divine Beasts and Creator Gods become Gods.

Reptiles and Dinosaurs become Reptilians.

Fish and Sea Serpents become Fish.

 

And by doing this we take 23 different types of cards and consolidate them into 15, this makes design a lot easier since there no longer has to be 20 different kinds of decks that affect all the types, less they just end up being ignored and worthless, and cards that affect multiple types can now just affect one type.

 

When we design the cards for the different types, rather than creating archetypes, the types should just have common themes that they follow, see: Psychics.

 

That said, types shouldn't require you to play all cards of one type, but at the same time a player who wants to theme their deck shouldn't be punished for it, thus the power level of cards should remain about the same between the different types, even if their strategies are a little different. For example, Insect cards could all be weak, stat-wise, but still be able to be competitive because their effects allow you to gain advantage card wise, where a Dragon or a Reptilian will make a huge stat wall that you have to somehow get around. Spellcasters should have some sort of relationship with Spell Cards, rather than creating a spell counter system, or making you count the number of Spellbook Cards you play in a turn, they should interact with the spell cards directly. Consider my new incarnation of Breaker.

Arcane Magus

Level 4

1400/1000

Once per turn: banish one Spell card from you hand, side of the field, or Graveyard; Increase this card's ATK by 500. Once per turn: reduce this card's ATK by 500 and target one Back Row card on the field; Destroy that target.

It's a powerful card, but it requires you to have resources. You have to already have had spell cards in the Graveyard to use its effect, or you have to be willing to give up one of your own card advantage to use. Most Spellcaster types should follow this trend of using Spells to use their effects. No longer do we see dumb effects like spell counters, or cards that require you to use Mermail this or a Gladiator Beast. The effects will all work together. Basically I'm saying no Archetypes.

 

Changing the monsters is the biggest challenge of this endeavor, as it will take the most time to create mechanics that most types will adhere to. A simple look would be like:

Animals: swarming the field with mediocre-powered monsters to not loose advantage

Dragon: Big Bad Powerful Guys

Elementals: varied by attribute, aquas will be water, pyros will be fire, rocks will be earth, and thunders will be wind. Expect the monarchs to all be this type.

Fairy: Gaining LPs and outlasting your opponents attacks

Fiend: Burning LPs but easy to get rid of

Fish: reliant on field cards to use powerful effects, like washing away opponents cards.

God: ummm, god cards, probably won't introduce them in my core set.

Insects: low offensive power, but uses effects to gain advantage

Machines: moderate power and partial immunity to spells/traps

Plants: creates a lot of tokens, and uses tributing monsters as costs for effects

Psychics: uses the banish pile for varied effects, tends to do a lot of searching and toolboxing

Reptilians: raw power for dinosaur type cards, raw annoyance for frog like cards

Spellcasters: uses spell cards to determine their effects

Warriors: varied effects, often about increasing ATK or DEF

Undead: bringing things back from the graveyard, a lot

 

Typically power should have a cost, that is, boss monsters will no longer exist in their current form. No JD like cards will exist here, and if they do, they will be Ritual Monsters and by default, the most difficult to summon.

 

Spell Cards:

Spells are utility cards, they will work very much the same way they do now, but with some common restrictions:

Power sweeps and removal will prevent attacking and won't be worth playing multiple copies of.

Regular removal will never lead to positive advantage.

Buffs will matter.

Draw and Search power will have measures to slow things down.

Special Summoning will always have a drawback.

 

Trap Cards:

Trap Cards will also work very similarly to how they are now.

Counter traps will be useful, but not overpowered.

Removal and mass removal will be limited.

Powerful continuous effects will have maintenance costs.

 

I'm looking to create a core set of 100 cards, preferably with the idea that it is 100% draftable. Expect a lot of powered down recreations of staple cards, and not a lot of useless filler cards, every card will be worth looking at for various reasons.

 

Anyone like this idea or am I crazy?

#PharoahSignal

#SummonPennington

#Ireallyneedtogetlaid

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»ACP    33421

Limited yugioh is always going to suck because you're just picking the most powerful cards, which makes the strategy incredibly linear. After becoming well-versed in BP: Epic Dawn I could build all of my sealed decks in under a minute by just having a simple mental pick order. In MTG it's a lot harder because the most powerful cards are divided into different colors. You can't just pick the most powerful cards and throw a deck together because your manabase is going to be a giant clusterfuck.

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»Pharaoh Atem    15769

I find the best puzzle of "how to fix" to be the puzzle that preserves the current ruleset. It makes for a harder challenge - anyone can fix ygo's ills by changing the ruleset and adopting design lessons learned over the last 10 years.

 

The post seems solid enough, but I don't exactly like the vague ideas given for the monster Types' builds - this just illustrates to me why Konami had a hard time making all the Types matter in the first place, because design can easily stray from those portents. Psychics are the best example of this, as the (second!) most recently created Monster Type, and as the one with the most thematic drift in recent memory.

 

(but atem wat type is most recently made if not psychic)

 

(Souzoushin-Type)

 

TheCreatorGodofLightHorakhty-YGOPR-JP-UR

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Limited yugioh is always going to suck because you're just picking the most powerful cards, which makes the strategy incredibly linear. After becoming well-versed in BP: Epic Dawn I could build all of my sealed decks in under a minute by just having a simple mental pick order. In MTG it's a lot harder because the most powerful cards are divided into different colors. You can't just pick the most powerful cards and throw a deck together because your manabase is going to be a giant clusterfuck.

The goal was to put our heads together to avoid that. Actually devise different strategies for different card types, OP was just spitballing ideas for how it could work.

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TFJ    618
Seems like fun, but unless we all go back to yvd where do we play it. And in magic I believe the core sets are generally larger than 100. You can do 100 to be fast, but quite a few types will be left out, clearly not fleshed out.

3-5 big vanillas.
15-20 spells.
10-15 traps.
Leaves 70 cards for 14 types for effects, rituals, fusions, synchros, and xyz. 7 cards per type doesn't seem like I would be able to start my say machine deck. Later I surely could but not upon release, which may be fine for you.

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Miss Click    2475

Limited yugioh is always going to suck because you're just picking the most powerful cards, which makes the strategy incredibly linear. After becoming well-versed in BP: Epic Dawn I could build all of my sealed decks in under a minute by just having a simple mental pick order. In MTG it's a lot harder because the most powerful cards are divided into different colors. You can't just pick the most powerful cards and throw a deck together because your manabase is going to be a giant clusterfuck.

 

I'd like to add to AP's point, what if we used attributes similar to colors in Magic? I believe one representation of Red (FIRE) is destruction, so why not use costs relating to FIRE to fuel effects relating to FIRE?

 

E.g Banish 1 FIRE Monster from your Graveyard; Destroy 1 Monster

 

It isn't to the level of specific where you have to dedicate your entire deck around it but it does require some investment to get the base benefit from it. 

 

For more powerful cards you could become more specific with cards such as using a specific archetype of the deck that focuses on the destruction aspect of Red/FIRE but not other aspects (e.g Direct Damage) 

 

E.g. Banish 5 "Burning" Monsters from your Graveyard; Destroy all Monsters.

 

The second card grants the player power for dedication to his deck, by doing this he is making a conscious risk/reward decision during deck-building. If he decks too many "Burning" Monsters, he won't have any room for any "Rejuvenation" (a water archetype) cards such as

E.g Reveal 3 "Rejuvenation" Monsters in your hand; Special Summon 1 Monster from your Graveyard*

 

Yes, he is decking what could easily be assumed to be the best destruction card in the game but by doing so, he is missing out on the best recursion card in the game. Make sure if Player chose one thing, they lose something else. 

 

*Alternatively, you could make it so it is "Special Summon 1 Rejuvenation Monster from your Graveyard" - What this effectively does is allow the attributes have obvious strength and weakness to other archetypes. In this case, we see a constant struggle between the destructive force of FIRE against the creative force of WATER  

 

Additionally regarding types, that should/could be another thing we could take from Magic: The Gathering, every word is a different type so like a "Winged Beast" could gain support from cards that support "Winged", "Beast" or "Winged Beast" type monsters but could never gain support from cards that support "

 

In summary, power can easily be regulated throw specification, we start at low power generic cards, good enough to use bad enough to not be required and we then move onto levels of specification first starting at attribute, then type, then archetype if necessary. 

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TFJ    618
Hé wanted this project to not ne specific because that is where konami fails. Locking people into archetypes sucks if everyone does it.

Color wheel/pie is good. Translate funny without resources though.

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Miss Click    2475

Hé wanted this project to not ne specific because that is where konami fails. Locking people into archetypes sucks if everyone does it.

Color wheel/pie is good. Translate funny without resources though.

 

I think you mean without mana because there are plenty of resources in Yugioh. 

 

I didn't mean lock everything into an archetype, it was more just an example of distribution of power over certain areas to elsewhere so that deck-building risk/reward exists than anything.

 

I mean the color wheel/pie is specification itself just a relatively relaxed one.  

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TFJ    618
I don't think yugioh has many resources. The hand is a terrible resource to pay for cards. The grave is varied, but then there is no real investing made to use it for normal to overpowered cards.
But I did mean mana.

I don't want my risk reward tied to me having four different lightsworns in my grave. I understand you saying we should have costs to balance cards a bit more. But hopefully good design will be enough with some costs.

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Miss Click    2475

Also regarding spell and traps. I feel the Sub-Type Icons are superfluous at best and should instead be treated like keywords in Magic. For example

 

Continuous (When this card resolves, it stays face up on the field until destroyed or removed by an effect)

 

While this card is face-up, all EARTH Monsters gain +500 Power

 

 

This will do things, one it will help you avoid being tied down to the demanding sub-type icon, it will also let you easily create new sub-types for cards such as Effect Veiler and Maxx "C" 

 

E.g Flash (You may activate this card/effect from your hand during either player's turn)

 

Some cards could do without the reminder text when it has become common knowledge. 

 

[quote=TFJ]I don't think yugioh has many resources. The hand is a terrible resource to pay for cards. The grave is varied, but then there is no real investing made to use it for normal to overpowered cards. 

But I did mean mana.
 

I don't want my risk reward tied to me having four different lightsworns in my grave. I understand you saying we should have costs to balance cards a bit more. But hopefully good design will be enough with some costs.[/quote]

 

Fair enough. Let me reiterate, Yugioh has resources.

 

What are your issues with using the Grave as a resource for some card costs? Or is it just the archetype level of specification? 

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TFJ    618
I have no opinion on spell subtypes. But you have to remember the subtypes allow for specific substype support, some good some bad. And I guess it is just as easy to say

Terraforming- search one spell that has the field effect... But what do you gain by erasing the icon. If you just want to free him from the struggle of trying to make a field card every set, I don't think he needs to support them evenly.

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Miss Click    2475

Well, he can still support sub-types. The only difference is aestheticism really. You could avoid needing to create another icon is all really.  

 

It also lowers the entry barrier into the game because now all we have to explain to newer players is how normal spells and normal traps works while the keywords (plus occasional reminder text) help the Players learn other sub-types through play, rather than teaching. Instead of me having to explain the little quick play icon to my girlfriend, she can instead just read the card which informs her rather clearly. Although in this case, Quick Plays turn into trap cards. 

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TFJ    618
Resources and power creep are my issues I guess.

The grave started with things like garuda and gigantes. Fair enough I guess. Small drawback for a decent monster as an extra attacker/material.
Chaos. I blame the monsters not the mechanic.
E dragons. Dark simorgh. Etc that can revive themselves from the grave. I wouldn't say they are inherently a problem, but they went from summon in hand to in grave with hand resources to grave with grave resources.

Discard a card get an effect.
Darkworld. Discard a card and get two effects with limits.
Push it more to fableds. Discard a card and almost always get an effect or two.
Mermails and atlanteaens. Discard a card get an effect, as well as having alternate effects.

I think costing just leads to different forms of power creep. If you don't power creep then it is just a flat boring cost.

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Miss Click    2475

Costs aren't a prerequisite for power creep, take for example (ignoring their chronological release order); Smashing Ground - Dark Hole - Raigeki. No costs to any of these cards but the latter is no doubt more powerful than the former. 

 

Costs (additionally or alternatively conditions) also prevent power creep due to the cost themselves; Take for example Lightning Vortex, it is obviously inferior to Raigeki but can be debated in effectiveness with a card such as Dark Hole. Dark Hole is generally better in this (and probably most) formats due to the shape of the format having a bunch of self-resurrecting or protection effects. Whereas Lightning Vortex may possibly be better in a format where decks focus on a key monster (imagine every deck had their Ophion, Heraklinos, or some such) and players would rather not risk their monster to destruction.

 

I'm not sure if that all made sense, the point being is that Lightning Vortex has moved from an easily over-powered card to a pretty good, optional mass destruction, card due to its cost.

 

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by

 

 If you don't power creep then it is just a flat boring cost.

 

This honestly just comes offs to me as some sort of personal dislike for correct use of card costs. 

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TFJ    618
I realize costs and power creeps are different. And the cost is there in order to allow some cards more powerful effects. But in ygo, it seems people were not willing to pay the cost associated with many cards, so konami is constantly creating more powerful effects or other ways to virtually eliminate the cost.
It isn't really a cost to discard dragoons and marksman for megalo since they pay for themselves, and even plus.
It isn't much of a cost to discard fabled ganeshia for chawa. But it doesn't gain you enough to use. You still get two cards, but the play is weaker.
Marksman has other effects. Dragoons is strong. Chawa and ganeshia aren't great on their own. And I realize you need to dedicate space to balance megalos cost, which is fair. But my point was just yugioh is on a path where costs are more associated with deckbuilding theme constraints than actual resource management, so ce the cards pay for themselves and have multiple effects.
If you don't power up the cards to justify your costs, you end up with raigeki break vs Owen. Pwwb dumb phone. Sure both see play but they are clones where usually one completely overshadows the other. There are some reasons but not many to use The great rock spirit over gigantes, etc.

Sorry if I am unclear. Either my points make no sense, or I am leaving out to much since I'm mobile.

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Miss Click    2475

I'm sure that is something that can be avoided in Marsh-I-OH! with well designed cards. 

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TFJ    618
Will level and stats be tied together? Will level 1 be weaker than than level 3 99% of the time?
There was no mention of any type using defense, but I assume some slower and annoying monsters should give it some purpose.

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+scuzzlebutt    23495

I find the best puzzle of "how to fix" to be the puzzle that preserves the current ruleset. It makes for a harder challenge - anyone can fix ygo's ills by changing the ruleset and adopting design lessons learned over the last 10 years.

 

The post seems solid enough, but I don't exactly like the vague ideas given for the monster Types' builds - this just illustrates to me why Konami had a hard time making all the Types matter in the first place, because design can easily stray from those portents. Psychics are the best example of this, as the (second!) most recently created Monster Type, and as the one with the most thematic drift in recent memory.

 

(but atem wat type is most recently made if not psychic)

 

(Souzoushin-Type)

 

TheCreatorGodofLightHorakhty-YGOPR-JP-UR

divine-beast also came out after psychics

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Will level and stats be tied together? Will level 1 be weaker than than level 3 99% of the time?
There was no mention of any type using defense, but I assume some slower and annoying monsters should give it some purpose.

Yes is the short answer.

And 100 cards may not be enough, as stated.

I'm 100% open to suggestions at this point.

YVD with a custom set was my plan for a playtest.

Spell and Trap subtypes are very much a factor, in the table top games I have been playing there are different kinds of spells and traps that the characters and  monster in game react to, and after seeing that parallel it became clear to me that YGO was an interesting reincarnation of that. Considering a card with this kind of design:

Quicken Spell

Quick-Play Spell

Chain to this card a Spell card with Spell Speed 1; its effect is treated as a Spell Speed 2.

The way spells interact with the game should be completely different from the way traps do.

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Chimera    610

I'm super stoked after reading this thread.

 

Set should be over 100 that's for sure. I'm tired but I'll follow the thread so I can contribute for real tomorrow

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xam13124    13
I would absolutely love to see something like this work out and become playable somehow through something like yvd. Yugioh drfinitely needs a reboot, power creep has simply gotten too crazy.

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Miss Click    2475

Will level and stats be tied together? Will level 1 be weaker than than level 3 99% of the time?
There was no mention of any type using defense, but I assume some slower and annoying monsters should give it some purpose.

YVD with a custom set was my plan for a playtest.

 

Alternatively, you could use [url=http://www.lackeyccg.com/downloads.html]LackeyCCG[/url]. It is an imperfect but rather flexible system. 

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xam13124    13
Im super pumped to see some results from this. Also I had a thought on something real yugioh hasnt dont but might work here, which is make rituals with requirements besides level. Could require that the tributes be a certain type or attribute, or even have certain rituals that dont depend on level at all and simply require a monster of a certain type or attribute as tribute.

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Im super pumped to see some results from this. Also I had a thought on something real yugioh hasnt dont but might work here, which is make rituals with requirements besides level. Could require that the tributes be a certain type or attribute, or even have certain rituals that dont depend on level at all and simply require a monster of a certain type or attribute as tribute.

I was actually considering this, rituals can be all kinds of crazy under these mechanics. Probably a bad choice of words.

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