POLLUTEDxDELTA

Intro to Goat Control

107 posts in this topic

Love the first post. Thanks for taking the time to write it out.
 
I love goat format but I see some attitude/snobbiness from people about the format. I would like to see some more acceptance/creativity from people. It seems like there's an unwritten rule that everyone must play the same SJC-Topping Chaos build or they suck/aren't playing fairly. Moreover, I don't understand why people think they have the authority to make their own ban list in an old format.
 
Wave-Motion Cannon was legal in April 2005--it was at 3. That means it should be legal in Dueling Network's goat format tournament and all goat format play.
 The Goat Chaos decks are the top decks because they come out on top in 2/3 matches with sideboarding, and because they won the Jumps. Not because a bunch of dudes on the internet banned everything else and told their friends not to play other decks/cards.
 
People who won't fight against burn/stall/combo decks in goat format are akin to the people on Dueling Network that put "fast acc no exodia no synchro no xyz" in their duel description. They're whiners, and they aren't willing to think for themselves about how to find outs to certain cards.
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Wave-Motion Cannon was legal in April 2005--it was at 3. That means it should be legal in Dueling Network's goat format tournament and all goat format play.
 The Goat Chaos decks are the top decks because they come out on top in 2/3 matches with sideboarding, and because they won the Jumps. Not because a bunch of dudes on the internet banned everything else and told their friends not to play other decks/cards.

If I wanted to grind through whatever cheese people use to win, I'd play the current format for the sake of competing. Regarding Goats, it's a format played for nostalgia and the propensity for control-deck mirrors that we tend to enjoy. Wave-Motion Cannon defeats the purpose of the control structure because it forces both players to just, one way or the other, jam everything on an 8 turn clock and see who wins. Further, acting like we all play the same list is ignorant and demonstrates your lack of knowledge. Within the tournament, just from what I've seen, there were burn variants using Koala, Time Seal builds, standard goats with a plethora of different techs and an adorable Beast-Down build by the site's own Rei. We play the format to see who can navigate a control format best, cards like Ring of Destruction and Ceasefire, in combination with life-point-costed spells, mean life points are already a resource, we don't need a cheap burn card that brings nothing more to the table than lowering the skill-ceiling of the format.

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Thats great if there's a variety of decks being played in the tournament. Personally on various threads in DGZ I've seen a lot of hate for variety...

 

Ex: In dolphin's "official goat format" thread below this, he straight up says..."ghandipants/hindu/otk/ftk/burn decks not allowed". No burn at all? Why? Obviously those aren't the official tournament rules. I just see all of this banning as a negative, can't-beat-it-so-I-won't-fight-it mindset. When in reality, control players beat all of those decks fair and square.

 

You make it sound like WMC is a dominating card that can decide a large percentage of games by itself... that just doesn't reflect major tournament results. This card was at 3. If it were as good or as dominating as you make it seem, we would have seen it in a majority of decks at US Nationals Top 8 that year.

 

http://kperovic.com/metagame/yugioh2988.html?tabid=33&ArticleId=2839

 

Only one problem--it barely showed up. Two people ran WMC in the sideboard, but the winner of the tournament didn't use it at all. Instead, he sided Trunade, Mobius, Chiron, and Raigeki Break... in other words, he made sure he had outs in his SB to deal with unconventional play and powerful cards. That's exactly how YGO is supposed to be played.

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You make it sound like WMC is a dominating card that can decide a large percentage of games by itself...

When did I ever say WMC won a lot? I didn't, try reading my post again. I said WMC reduces the skill-ceiling of the format and puts an eight-turn clock on the game regardless of the winner. I've seen a lot of people play WMC and then lose a game because, before it gets to critical mass, you're taking a -1 on resources and making your opponent into the aggro which is not a good combination. the reason why WMC and, additionally, the ftk/deckout components of the format are frowned upon is, again, because they reduce the skill-ceiling of the format, which is counterproductive to the rationale for even playing the format. Now, does this agree with the official tournament rules? Nope, not at all, but then again, Goat Format isn't legal now-a-days anyway. As I already stated before, the rationale for this format is a mixture of nostalgia and an exercise in the skillful execution of the control mirror, neither of which is particularly served well by WMC. If you wanna play cheese, play the current format and people will be forced to deal with you. tbh, you just come off as somewhat butthurt that people don't like playing against your WMC which you felt all clever and shit for playing.

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wmc is fucking cheap and i'd be dammed if we've include it in our games

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Love the first post. Thanks for taking the time to write it out.

I love goat format but I see some attitude/snobbiness from people about the format. I would like to see some more acceptance/creativity from people. It seems like there's an unwritten rule that everyone must play the same SJC-Topping Chaos build or they suck/aren't playing fairly. Moreover, I don't understand why people think they have the authority to make their own ban list in an old format.

Wave-Motion Cannon was legal in April 2005--it was at 3. That means it should be legal in Dueling Network's goat format tournament and all goat format play.
The Goat Chaos decks are the top decks because they come out on top in 2/3 matches with sideboarding, and because they won the Jumps. Not because a bunch of dudes on the internet banned everything else and told their friends not to play other decks/cards.

People who won't fight against burn/stall/combo decks in goat format are akin to the people on Dueling Network that put "fast acc no exodia no synchro no xyz" in their duel description. They're whiners, and they aren't willing to think for themselves about how to find outs to certain cards.
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html]http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html[/url]


We play Goat Format without Cybernetic Revolution because for the most part people agree the format is better off without it. People play the Edison Format without TSHD because they agree that format is better off without it. I'd say most people here agree that Goat Format is better off without the sometimes brutally unfair Wave-Motion Cannon and any and all OTKs so why not get rid of them? Sure they're legal (which imo is a mistake) but we all agree they make the game shittier.
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fuck wavemotion cannon fuck cybernetic revolution

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I like playing with CRV, it makes the monarch decks way more playable. Fuck Cyber Twin Dragon though.

 

WMC is cheap and is used by awful players to compensate for their lack of skill or game knowledge. Fuck that as well, we play these tournaments to relive the old days where skill really did matter, not to have it burnt away cheaply - we'd play the current format if we wanted a format based on luck of the draw.

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If you're not locking decks in the goat tournament you're obliged to smash the scum with a banlist w/e your views.  Otherwise people will literally snipe the very good/very bad players with degenerate shit then shift out of it and not face the negative consequences of running a shitty deck like that.  

 

 

 

On some level I feel banning these cards is an issue simply because it alters the metagame with siding.  You gain so many side slots, you open to all these transformation options that you just didn't have in the real April 05 because of space.  

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so pretty much a cleaner format based on skill how us players want it ?

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Am I the only player that holds specific power cards to group together with others to create a huge swing of advantage or momentum in my favor? If their duo is in the graveyard I will hold Pot of Greed until I can generate the biggest advantage possible with the card, same with duo. I can't help but think playing pot is obviously great, but being even in advantage and you suddenly go up +4, it's heartbreaking.

 

The more common reason I often hold PoG is for a "draw-go" stalemate. In these situations the more cards you have to commit to the field (due to 7+ cih at end of turn) the more vulnerable to mass removal plays you are.

 

But going along with what you've said about "sudden advantage swings" I think there's something to that. I find myself (and I believe most good players too) pressing with 1-1s when I have an advantage of some sort (be it a field threat like AKP or Spirit Reaper or simple card advantage). If you can coax your opp to simplifying with 1-1's and then come back with PoG it can put yourself in a much better position.

 

For a beginner in goat format I'd put it this way: would you rather have 3 cards to their 1, or 7 cards to their 5? In both you are "+2", but a simplified game state with a +2 is enormously more commanding.

 

If you can continue to make optimal or near optimal plays without playing PoG, there's no reason to play PoG that turn. Granted, this is fairly rare, and 90% of the time I draw PoG I also play it that turn. Generally the more cards you already have in hand, the less necessary it is to play PoG, and the better it is to hold it.

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I play awkward all together in goat format though. I have a lot of card choices, reasoning, advanced theories that no one else seems to understand. So, maybe in my own mind I've convinced myself they're correct. Yet, everyone else knows they're wrong, haha. I'm not going too bad though, still put in work regardless of the way I play.

 

Also, yeah you have the idea about simplifying game state and then putting icing on the cake. If I don't need to play PoG or Duo, if their duo is gone and whatnot and a few other reads to do with their hand for duo, I'll hold them.

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Only real reason to hold on to duo when they have 2+ cards in hand is if you suspect a night assailant/sinister serpent, or you're low on LP and need to play really conservative. Same for pot. Goat control is less about 1vs1 card situations thanks to thousand eyes restrict and metamorphasis, alongside tsku. It's more about control and knowing when/how to press an advantage and when/how to make a game-shifting play, which duo and pog allow you to do far more easily, whatever the gamestate is at the time.

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I guess I'm the only one that thinks tempo is important =[

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Only real reason to hold on to duo when they have 2+ cards in hand is if you suspect a night assailant/sinister serpent, or you're low on LP and need to play really conservative. Same for pot. Goat control is less about 1vs1 card situations thanks to thousand eyes restrict and metamorphasis, alongside tsku. It's more about control and knowing when/how to press an advantage and when/how to make a game-shifting play, which duo and pog allow you to do far more easily, whatever the gamestate is at the time.

 

Ironically enough your post starts with this, then you spend 3 lines explaining exactly why it isn't true

 

Using pot and duo is completely different, you're just totally fucking wrong there.  Even if you have a solid read on no serpent, there's good times where stripping the outs they've been holding is just backbreaking, vs times where "oh two cards, meh," and your opponent flips scapegoat and the duel grinds on for another 10 turns and the -1 practically didn't matter

 

Hold the duo, grind them down and make them set/summon monsters, then duo away the BLS/Heavy they've been holding since turn 1.  That's just one interaction, there's inf others where not playing duo is the better play.

 

Pot of greed gives you options, and you need to see those options to make an informed decision about what your play will be.  That's why activating it instantly is the most correct play in 95% of scenarios, because you need to see those options to make the correct play. 

 

Duo takes two cards from your opponent's hand at a certain time, that's a very, very different thing.  You definitely want to play it to take advantage of tempo.

 

Model your points about holding pot have just been v. confused IMO.  The whole time I think you're talking about duo when you mention pot. 

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holding pog is like a whole diff level of thinking imo and it isnt even that next level when you look at it

 

 

half the time you never want to commit cards to the field anyway so why play pot of greed where you're likely to go to 7 then be forced to put more cards to get blown out by a storm/dust/mst, putting more monsters on board, etc

 

you're entirely better off leaving it until you're in a spot where you need to see the additional 2 cards or you'll likely lose the game, what most of you have confused with this format over every other format is the fact that other formats reward you for digging deeper into cards (otk possibilities, prenegators, hand traps, whatever), in goat format the games are so drawn out that you just have no reason to burn a pog willy nilly lol

 

 

the only difference being when you run pog in combo decks or burn but thats a totally diff story

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Bodan my hero.

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Playing POG turn one isn't a bad play. I think it depends on your hand and game state. If the game is slow paced then POG won't be great, but you can quickly adjust your playing style and play aggressive as needed. There really isn't a debate on this card.
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It obviously depends on the game state and what else your hand contains. But there are tangible benefits to holding PoG, here are a few:
(1) stealth MoF plays
(2) minimizing hand size in a stalemate, "draw-go" game state
(3) opponent perceives his/her card advantage at +1 relative to what it will be once you decide to activate PoG
(4) flexibility in plays such as morphing jar, stale mates, etc.

Of course this has to be weighed against the cons to not playing PoG immediately:
(1) risk of discard to duo/reaper/don
(2) risk of allowing your opponent to pull off an advantage generating play that could have been avoided if you had two extra cards (such as resolving a MoF when your next draw is NoC). This is the biggest drawback, but if your hand is full of enough options to mitigate any current threat it becomes a less relevant drawback.

To say that any decision, even playing PoG, is not subject to a risk-reward analysis in goat format is a naive assessment of the complexities and strategy that go into a game of goat format. There are pros and cons to everything, and every game state is different. There are no hard rules about how to play any single card, and people often make mistakes or simply are unable to trick their opponent into a mistake because they think they have to play card X a certain way every time. Particularly against a good player, you sometimes have to play somewhat unorthodox to throw off his/her game and ability to read what you're doing.
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I agree with everything you said, but I'm not holding onto POG if I don't any defense cards against reaper, don zaloog. If my hand consists of: POG, MST, BLS, NOC, META, TSK. POG seems correct to play at that moment. There is always an optimal play and a good play. Timing is actually pretty important in goat control format.
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I have to ask the creator something.  You say cards like fiend skull don't "make the cut" on DN.  Here's the thing:  What does?  I mean, are you going to play 3 of everything that "does" and then not play Fiend Skull?  It doesn't make any sense.  Secondly, Exarion Universe was made legal at the same time CRV was, so the format we all like to play is imaginary.  Thirdly, I would just like to say that I think CRV was beneficial to the format, at least now, but not back then.

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Except that isnt even true. Exarion universe was tournament legal a week and a half before crv was. Thats why its allowed in goats even though we ban crv because it in most peoples opinion made the format far worse.

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To clarify, iirc, this is how it went. CRV was released august 17th or so. But UDE tournament policy stated that sets were not tournament legal upon release, but rather at an arbirary date set by UDE. In this case, it was Sept. 1. But because of a quirk in UDE rules, promos (tin cards in this case) were legal upon release. The exarion universe tin was released about a week or so before sept 1. That's why it's legal in pre-crv goats.

 

Just to clarify I'm not pulling this out of my ass, here's the clause:

 

[spoiler]

 

A-6. Legality of Sets

Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG card sets become legal for premier event tournament play at set dates. Premier events include Regional Tournaments, National Championships, and Shonen Jump Championships. UDE will update this list regularly at ude.com/policy.
 
Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG promotional cards become legal for all tournaments upon their release.
 
From the UDE Tournament Policy.
 
[/spoiler]
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There was literally a few days where you could play Exarion and not CRV. He's right that from a historical perspective, playing with Exarion but not CRV is stupid. There were no premier events played with Exarion but not CRV. Ideally, I would just want to play with neither, since that's what the format actually was for all except one month.

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There was literally a few days where you could play Exarion and not CRV. He's right that from a historical perspective, playing with Exarion but not CRV is stupid. There were no premier events played with Exarion but not CRV. Ideally, I would just want to play with neither, since that's what the format actually was for all except one month.

 

Well, strictly speaking, if we are playing pre-crv, then it is completely correct to play with exarion because it was in fact legal before crv. Regardless of the legality date, legal pre-crv is legal pre-crv. I mean, its a moronic quirk of the UDE system, but if we halt goat format strictly at the legal date of crv, then there is no reason not to include exarion.

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