POLLUTEDxDELTA

Intro to Goat Control

94 posts in this topic

I feel like this is an issue of there was a format that we all heavily enjoyed, but never got to completely flesh out, so now we return to it to enjoy the games and flesh it out some more. I mean, if we just wanted to remember it for how it was, we would just play exact mirrors of the best deck at the time,  because that would be remembering it how it was. But now that we have the ability to go back and further the format and still have the fun, why wouldn't we included everything that was in the format before it got shot to hell?

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fwiw I don't actually play goats, I just wanted to say for the record that Exarion universe was in fact legal if we stop legality exactly at crv. So I could care less about what the community decides is legal or not, I just wanted to state fact.

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Regarding fusions, it is extremely rare that Fiend Skull needs to be played, as opposed to Balter, Reaper, or the on field Airknight or Zaborg (and keeping Metamorphosis). Playing in 2005 with an unlimited fusion deck, I don't think I ever brought out Fiend Skull more than twice, and honestly, it might have been a misplay to do so anyways. 

 

The only two scenarios that Fiend Skull is actually playable is when your opponent has multiple face down monsters. But you can't predict which ones are flips and which ones aren't, If your opponent set cards like Sangan, Sinister, Reaper, Exarion, and even GK Spy (to an extent), your choice to make Fiend Skull is going to look real bad. Even if there is a combination of flips and non flips, Balter will atleast completely handle one, and Airknight will draw you a card maybe 80% of the time.

 

The second scenario is if you are at less than 1000 life, and you still need to somehow negate flip monsters, and you need to make a ghetto-Balter with atleast some built in protection. But again I ask, why are you under 1000 life, with a level 5, a Metamorphosis, and think making Fiend Skull leads to a winning line of play. 

 

If you are in a scenario where you need to handle multiple potential flips, you have access to a 5, and Metamorphosis, AND you need to bring out Fiend Skull Dragon to have a chance at winning, you probably played the game wrong.

 

Looking at my fusion deck from when I won the Goat Control tournament:

 

3 TER

1 Gatling Dragon

2 Ryu Senshi

1 Ojama King

1 Dark Blade the Dragon Knight

2 Balter

1 Reaper on the Nightmare

2 Darkfire Dragon

1 Flame Ghost

1 Dragoness

 

I am more likely to make 3 TER in a game than need 1 Fiend Skull Dragon.

I am more likely to make 2 Darkfire Dragon than to need 1 Fiend Skull Dragon.

I am more likely to need both a wind and dark level 3 than I am to need 1 Fiend Skull Dragon.

etc, all of these things combined, are still more likely than me needing Fiend Skull Dragon.

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There were no events held with Exarion and without CRV. UDE quirks aside, that is fact. While we aren't playing a literal imaginary format, we are playing the closest thing to it. If we wanted to remember goat format how it was, we wouldn't play mirrors of the best list because 1 there was no consensus best list and 2 there's always diversity at events even when there is a consensus best list. The only actual reason to have exarion legal and not CRV is "I like exarion but not cyber dragon," which I guess is fine. Kris Perovic wanted to experiment with playing goats with effect veiler for similar reasons.

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that is for DN goats. goat format didn't have an extra deck limit.

 

Reread my post.

 

Thank you.

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I hate how people like Allen bring about Exarion not being a real part of the format endlessly.

 

Fact is, whether the format is historically correct or not is actually fucking irrelevant.  People don't want to play a historically correct format, they want to play a good format that's fun & skillful to play and they've agreed as a group to allow Exarion.  That's why we ban the shit outta most alt win decks and have gentleman's agreements not to play WMC even tho burn was horrendously good and arguably better than regular goats in most goat tournaments these days because people are generally just unprepared for the concept of even playing vs it.  

 

So we play with Exarion.

 

End of story.  

 

Also like, if someone wants to proxy Alligator's Sword Dragon in goat control (like if I'm restricted to 15, I'd probably use that over a 2nd darkfire just to give myself another option than more depth on the metamorpoh+sangan play just saying), go ahead.  I'm pretty sure that's the attitude of 99% of people who play goats, use the unlimited extra deck just because there's no good reason to limit it to 15.  

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I hate how people like Allen bring about Exarion not being a real part of the format endlessly.

This is the first time I brought it up. Ok, maybe I brought it up about two years ago. But seriously, the fact that you started off your post this way (and the fact that you're Urthor) just tells me that you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

Fact is, whether the format is historically correct or not is actually fucking irrelevant.

Why? Because you say it is? It depends on who you ask. Some people are specifically drawn to formats like this because of the nostalgia factor.

People don't want to play a historically correct format, they want to play a good format that's fun & skillful to play and they've agreed as a group to allow Exarion

Which I mentioned was totally fine. People can play whatever format they want. The main reason that I would rather play without Exarion is the same reason that people don't like to play with Cyber Dragon; it shits on what would be a lot of other legitimate choices in the format. Exarion makes cards like Asura Priest, Spirit Reaper, DDWL, and GK Spy significantly worse, so smart people like Perovic have just stopped playing those cards and are running multiple Exarion instead.

That's why we ban the shit outta most alt win decks and have gentleman's agreements not to play WMC even tho burn was horrendously good and arguably better than regular goats in most goat tournaments these days because people are generally just unprepared for the concept of even playing vs it.

Burn was terrible. In 2005, burn was basically the next most popular deck after goats, and it never came close to winning anything. In the last goat league I played in we made burn perfectly legal, and everyone was prepared for it, so it didn't win much. The only reason we ban tier 2 decks like burn and otk and because most people just want to play the same thing every time. Actual good goat players would just crush those decks, since they'd know how to play against more than just mirrors.

So we play with Exarion.
 
End of story.

I don't even think you could be a bigger douchebag.

Also like, if someone wants to proxy Alligator's Sword Dragon in goat control (like if I'm restricted to 15, I'd probably use that over a 2nd darkfire just to give myself another option than more depth on the metamorpoh+sangan play just saying), go ahead.  I'm pretty sure that's the attitude of 99% of people who play goats, use the unlimited extra deck just because there's no good reason to limit it to 15.

There is a good reason to limit it to 15. In forces you make more choices, which is inherently more skillful. The reasons for keeping it at 15 in goats are the exact same reasons why we keep it at 15 in current Yugioh. It's stupid to see people show up with 200 card extra decks. For goat tournaments irl, I would limit to extra deck to 15 just so people would not have to go out and buy 3 of every legal fusion. The prospect of an extra deck three times the size of your main is not attractive to newer players.
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Well, I started a shit storm.  What I was saying regarding fusions is that there's no reason to run 3 balters, and whatever else you say is most relevant.  The only thing running 3 of is TER.  So, there's no reason not to run Fiend Skull.  Just for the record, I actually enjoy playing post-CRV, because I feel Cydra makes the game more skillful.  The point about Exarion is that we play the format before Sept 1. Well, Exarion couldn't have been used before Sept 1, because there were no events.   Therefore, he isn't part of our format that we say we play.   Also, I'm down for creating our own format anytime.

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I am more likely to make 2 Darkfire Dragon than to need 1 Fiend Skull Dragon.

I am more likely to need both a wind and dark level 3 than I am to need 1 Fiend Skull Dragon.

etc, all of these things combined, are still more likely than me needing Fiend Skull Dragon.

 

Sorry I think this is incorrect and that you're stretching it beyond belief to make a point.  Fiend Skull is much more likely to happen than either of those two situations simply because it cannot be targeted by traps which is an ability that isn't afforded by Dark Balter. 

 

I'd also like to offer input on Exarion universe because I also believe it should be honor banned.  After some time you're going to realise Exarion universe makes the following cards: Asura Priest, Spirit Reaper, Grave Keeper's Spy and (in some beastdown) Enraged Battle Ox useless.  Exarion is in effect all of those cards in one and as such it is immediately more viable and precludes the option of using those cards.  1) It plays against scapegoat (Asura Priest/Enraged) and 2) Walls (as Reaper/Spy do).  If Exarion is banned I believe that there will be more cause to use those three-four cards. 

 

There's also the case that it was only allowed for a week or so and that's also a fair argument.  Including Exarion simply wouldn't be an accurate picture of how the format actually played due to the timing of its legality as well as the reasons mentioned in the above paragraph.  It's seemingly arbitrary to disallow CRV on a one week difference saying that Cyber Dragon ruins the format by stomping on Berserk Gorilla/Airknight/spy (and also Exarion) while ignoring the fact that Exarion nearly does just as much.

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I completely agree with Allen and fat cat on this. Exarion really limits play choices. There were no large events between Aug 17 and Aug 31, and I doubt there were even regionals as it was the end of the season (after nationals / worlds). It is not "true to the format." To me it belongs in the same category as CRV. Also, a little history here: I believe retro goats became popular around the summer of 2011 or 2012 when dn came out with the traditional setting allowing users to use banned cards. People on DGz and other old school players started playing games for fun and revived the whole idea of playing it for fun. The decision to allow Exarion Universe but not CRV was somewhat arbitrary and emotional and likely pushed for by a very small number of players in the early days of the revival. It definitely does not fall under the classification of an informed decision made by the community. The point is it's a weird historical accident that we're all playing +Exarion -CRV, and we could decide to start playing pre-Exarion any time we want to. In fact after reading these posts and thinking about it again, I'm somewhat inspired to start requesting games pre-Exarion.

 

I also fully agree that Fiend Skull Dragon is worth a slot in the 15 card extra, primarily because it lets you negate flips if the opponent has a ring or sakuretsu to protect them. This is a crucial advantage over Balter and a play that has to be made at times. Cards that I use less often include 2nd copies of Ryu Senshi or Balter, Flame Ghost (the only viable 3 stars are already dark), and Ojama King. I don't really have strong feelings about limiting the extra, but the fact that it's limited on dn is a super good reason to play with it as such, simply out of convenience.

 

Also yeah burn is terrible--easily beaten by a handful of MSLV2s and Dust Tornadoes in most cases. While I am generally in favor of banning OTKs or a small number of OTK-enabling cards, I do think goat players should learn to side properly and play goats against non-mirror matches. It's overwhelmingly doable and is a skill that is cool to master. My only gripe with OTKs is that it is annoying to have a tournament match come down to luck of the draw more so than with other match-ups.

 

While I myself am a diehard standard goat user, I enjoy playing against both mirrors and non-mirrors.

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I am more likely to make 2 Darkfire Dragon than to need 1 Fiend Skull Dragon.

I am more likely to need both a wind and dark level 3 than I am to need 1 Fiend Skull Dragon.

etc, all of these things combined, are still more likely than me needing Fiend Skull Dragon.

 

Sorry I think this is incorrect and that you're stretching it beyond belief to make a point.  Fiend Skull is much more likely to happen than either of those two situations simply because it cannot be targeted by traps which is an ability that isn't afforded by Dark Balter. 

 

I'd also like to offer input on Exarion universe because I also believe it should be honor banned.  After some time you're going to realise Exarion universe makes the following cards: Asura Priest, Spirit Reaper, Grave Keeper's Spy and (in some beastdown) Enraged Battle Ox useless.  Exarion is in effect all of those cards in one and as such it is immediately more viable and precludes the option of using those cards.  1) It plays against scapegoat (Asura Priest/Enraged) and 2) Walls (as Reaper/Spy do).  If Exarion is banned I believe that there will be more cause to use those three-four cards. 

 

There's also the case that it was only allowed for a week or so and that's also a fair argument.  Including Exarion simply wouldn't be an accurate picture of how the format actually played due to the timing of its legality as well as the reasons mentioned in the above paragraph.  It's seemingly arbitrary to disallow CRV on a one week difference saying that Cyber Dragon ruins the format by stomping on Berserk Gorilla/Airknight/spy (and also Exarion) while ignoring the fact that Exarion nearly does just as much.

 

Well, I don't think Exarion should be banned.   Honestly, he's a good card, that deserves play.  You might say that he ruins cards, like Asura, but he adds depth to the game on a whole new level.  I think that as a card, by doing those things, he's helping the game.  He's making it more in depth.  No one sets Asura, so there's no mind games.  Battle Ox always does piercing, so there's no mind games.  He adds depth.  Same with Cydra.  Cydra also makes people play smartly.  You won't inopportunely activate Goat without getting punished.  You won't randomly play an Exarion.  These are just my thoughts though. 

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Also, I do enjoy playing post CRV.  I think we all have a knee jerk reaction due to what happened after its drop.  It honestly makes the format more skillful. 

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Which I mentioned was totally fine. People can play whatever format they want. The main reason that I would rather play without Exarion is the same reason that people don't like to play with Cyber Dragon; it shits on what would be a lot of other legitimate choices in the format. Exarion makes cards like Asura Priest, Spirit Reaper, DDWL, and GK Spy significantly worse, so smart people like Perovic have just stopped playing those cards and are running multiple Exarion instead.

 

Anyone playing with Exarion better be playing multiple Exarion.  Anyways, I've always thought spy was pretty bad anyways, and spirit reaper is more of a one-of, which is still playable, if you play it right.  For Asura, well, you can still play it to clear goats, but that requires your opponent to activate goats badly.  Exarion punishes just about any goat plays, which is fine with me, so it's just a better card.  Asura does clear board however.  

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Exarion being skillful is extremely subjective though.  What we can do however, is confirm that Exarion stifles card choices based on the decks you see no longer playing any of spy/reaper/asura priest.  That "depth" you are talking about is just really restating why it makes spy/reaper/asura unviable.  It's several cards in one.  It does too many things too well.  Either add CRV to put a check on Exarion or cut both altogether. <--Yes I understand that probably isn't the best move and its controversial.  But it speaks to how strong Exarion is.

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CRV goats is actually great though.  Like for all Cyber Dragon's flaws and the amount of complaints about the number of Yugioh cards it invalidates, without comparing the two I'd def say 3 scapegoat CRV is actually a fantastic format to play in of itself because of the scapegoat/cyber dragon paradox.  

 

I mean I just don't care about invalidating choices and don't think that shrinking the effective card pool is a bad thing, because I'm not caught up in the deckbuilding equation at all, much less the historical.  "wow I can use these cards in deck building sweet," sort of like appeals to people who's thing that is i guess, but actively removing cards from the card pool just to accommodate your urge to play with spirit reaper?  Just why.  

 

Honestly I think Asura priest is pretty garbo regardless of whether Exarion is legal or not, that card doesn't work at all in too many awkward game states where you're behind in tempo I really just hate the idea of having to play it.  You're not locking goat games down into draw pass 100% of the time, and asura really struggles to get value outside of those game states.

 

If like, there's a really good reason that having Exarion makes goat format's technical play clinically just worse than non-exarion, then I would be fine cutting it, but I don't think it's that clear cut at all.  I just completely oppose not using a card simply because it's not realistic to a nationals format that was almost a decade ago, I'd rather just have the best gameplay.

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Exarion being skillful is extremely subjective though.  What we can do however, is confirm that Exarion stifles card choices based on the decks you see no longer playing any of spy/reaper/asura priest.  That "depth" you are talking about is just really restating why it makes spy/reaper/asura unviable.  It's several cards in one.  It does too many things too well.  Either add CRV to put a check on Exarion or cut both altogether. <--Yes I understand that probably isn't the best move and its controversial.  But it speaks to how strong Exarion is.

Add both.  That's the most skillful, and best option.

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Started playing Goats locally and really enjoyed this thread to gain further insight into this format.

There are a couple cards I want to try out and is Vampire Lord. Now I know normally this is used usually in conjunction with Pyramid Turtle but is this card good enough to be played by it's self? I would hold off summoning it and just discard it with an outlet and just Call or Premature it back. It still seems like a powerful card in this format with the recursion effect and the fact you can call Trap and make better reads of what they have left. Don't have a lot of time to test it but feel it could be a good choice and answer to over extension, making Mirror Force, Sakurersu, Torrential etc bad for my opponent to use.
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seems like it would be a worse version of Jinzo if you're not using Pyramid Turtle

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^ Exactly what I was going to say.

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I don't think limiting the Fusion deck to 15 cards makes the format better, but aside from the very rare times where I've needed to make 3 Gatling Dragons this is really not an issue.

The first thing is that we do not play a totally historically correct version of Goat Format. OTKs are almost always either outright banned or soft banned under the "don't be a scumbag" mindset which I think is a good thing.

As far as Exarion goes there is historical context for it being allowed and CRV not, but the reality is that when this revival of Goats started 3 years ago adding the tin set that Exarion is from (of which the only other card I can think of being from that set is Panther Warrior) was a fairly not controversial addition. Adding that tin set basically just added 1 card to the format, and it was a card that was good in the format and had been greatly desired by players in 2005. I don't think Exarion being legal is having an impact on the playability of DDWL, Spirit Reaper, Asura Priest, or Gravekeeper's Spy though. All were (and remain as far as I'm aware) fringe tech choices aside from DDWL seeing the big play it saw in 2005 because it was a solid stats decent effect light monster, which over nearly a decade of play simply hasn't held up as well.

CRV on the other hand was, and isn't widely accepted. Cyber Dragon changes a lot of stuff, but even just ignoring him Cyber Twin and Cyber End cause a bunch of problems. They both speed up the game with their potential damage swings, and they allow Cyber-Stein (both the tech copies and the dedicated OTK) to be a thing. While we could lump Cyber-Stein into the honor ban pool of cards but that seems silly when without CRV I don't think anyone would give a shit about somebody dropping Cyber-Stein to summon Master of Oz.

Still getting rid of Cyber-Stein would be the only way to go because once you're at the point of "yeah CRV is legal, but not Cyber End or Cyber Twin" you're really pushing the boundaries into custom format territory which turns people off.

Ultimately though I do think if we were ever to attempt as custom version of yugioh with Goat Format as the starting point now would be the time.
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i wish some more 2005 OGs would post in this thread

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Love the first post. Thanks for taking the time to write it out.

I love goat format but I see some attitude/snobbiness from people about the format. I would like to see some more acceptance/creativity from people. It seems like there's an unwritten rule that everyone must play the same SJC-Topping Chaos build or they suck/aren't playing fairly. Moreover, I don't understand why people think they have the authority to make their own ban list in an old format.

Wave-Motion Cannon was legal in April 2005--it was at 3. That means it should be legal in Dueling Network's goat format tournament and all goat format play.
The Goat Chaos decks are the top decks because they come out on top in 2/3 matches with sideboarding, and because they won the Jumps. Not because a bunch of dudes on the internet banned everything else and told their friends not to play other decks/cards.

People who won't fight against burn/stall/combo decks in goat format are akin to the people on Dueling Network that put "fast acc no exodia no synchro no xyz" in their duel description. They're whiners, and they aren't willing to think for themselves about how to find outs to certain cards.
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html]http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html[/url]


We play Goat Format without Cybernetic Revolution because for the most part people agree the format is better off without it. People play the Edison Format without TSHD because they agree that format is better off without it. I'd say most people here agree that Goat Format is better off without the sometimes brutally unfair Wave-Motion Cannon and any and all OTKs so why not get rid of them? Sure they're legal (which imo is a mistake) but we all agree they make the game shittier.

 

I would like to point out that I think Cydra makes the format more skillful, though I'm fine with banning twin, if that's what we need for acceptance of Cydra.

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This is the full list of CRV cards that have any chance of being played.

Steamroid
Drillroid
Cyber Dragon
Cybernetic Magician
Mechanical Hound
Goblin Elite Attack Force
Giant Kozaky
Cyber Twin Dragon
Cyber End Dragon
Fire Darts
Water Art
Earth Art
Magical Explosion
Dimension Wall

DWall, Explosion, and Fire Darts all just try to make burn better. Last I checked that wasn't a good thing. D:
Earth art only helps the Cat deck, and is a major gimmick.
Kozaky only helps Skill Drain+DDV, which is a major gimmick. Pretty sure Fusilier does it better anyway, and you'd just play this as multiple copies.
Pretty sure Water Art is just an inf worse Dustshoot
Pretty sure Mechanical Hound doesn't see the light of day even in Soul Control

So of the cards that are realistically usable in a standard goat deck
Cyber Twin is  pretty irrefutably degenerate because BLS RFG something->5800 damage. Also 3 Limiters.
Cybernetic Magician seems like a gimmick, trying to push an open field with 2000 goats.
Drilloid is good but not great, trying to pop things like LJM, Spys, Guards, and Exarions while being bigger than Mystic Swordsman. 
Steamroid honestly seems almost decent. 1800 Defense is huge, and being able to overun Airknight with a normal summon is decent. But with the lack of machines in Goats to justify Limiters, pretty sure the card doesn't make it.

Goblin Elite Attack Force is only noteworthy if Cyber Dragon is legal

Seems like Cyber Dragon is the only real reason to discuss  CRV in Goats. Even without Twin, Cydra facilitates the play of cards like Limiter Removal and Brain Control. I don't think any of these cards benefit the player ahead in advantage more than the one not, so I don't think the cards do anything to increase the skill floor of the format.


 

Curious to hear what you all think.

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