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MrMcThrasher    1274

 

 

 

 

fiendish sucks dick.

 

Torrential is worst in this deck, in my opinion. 

How you figure?  We search out our own special Forbidden Lance and therefore it helps us keep control.  Plus with such a low monster count it really doesn't hurt us and makes an excellent Plan B.  Worst case scenario we have a nice Premature Burial we can use.

 

What? Thats the worst argument to play torrential...I'm not saying is a bad card, I just think there is better cards to play. If you want a Spellcaster to stick, or want to maintain a Kycoo/World/Priestess, even for fate or for giving the final push, your wasting your monsters, which we lack and sometimes we lose because of that...Our only concern should be Dragons, they are like 80% of the top cut for the fourth event in a row...Torrential only gains us a turn and sometimes it even doesn't give us that if they go Scrap and forces us to use it or using it prematurely and then getting returned..They eat traps and making stardust against us happens time to time and I can say they are making it more often, because of the Breaks/MST in the main...I'm not down voting Steinman build, I think is good and usually they are near the best at the end, but considering every build he posts to be "the one" is limiting ourselves as players and deck builders.

 

If your searching for wisdom against dragons and you already have Tower+fate setup + Magician/Secrets/Eternity in hand your already winning the duel with any other traps, so I can't see why you use Wisdom/Life as argument to put your monsters on the graveyard when you should use cards like Life as a last resort or a game ending play.

Torrential giving us a turn is really all we need to keep going and keep control.  You also forget that, with our low monster count, Torrential is more helpful than you give credit for.  I also cannot see how calling Torrential Tribute a good choice limits us as players and deck builders.  Torrential runs GREAT in theory and has always been great in testing as well.

 

Why is low monster count a good argument for Torrential? You don't have any that float take that in mind...Like I said the card is not bad, but I'm testing without it and never felt the need for it. Like what welchy said, MST is far more important for the field spell war, and if we can save our tower without wasting Fate on their Ravine the better.

It's a good argument because:

1. We are less likely to suffer a minus play from it.

2. We have a floater in the form of Magician (which was already said by Relianah).  Related, but...

3. Not entirely related, but it's in the same way that Verz or Constellar would use Torrential.  We have ways to get around the negatives that are easily done, so stopping the opponent from summoning again is good.

 

I'm not saying MST would be a bad choice, but it's not something you would play over Torrential.  After all, we are already running Maxx "C" (mained or sided, usually mained though) in case of a bad turn as well as deterring summoning, and we already run PWWB and/or Raigeki Break for selective removal and therefore helping preserve/fuel Fate plays.  MST is best reserved for the side in my opinion.

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El Panico    53

I'm not sure how relevant it is, but I just realized that if you have a kycoo on board with a royal prison face up against standard dragons they can't play yugioh.

 

 nvm just realized they can just banish from hand. to summon from hand. It's late. I'm going to sleep.

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DarkBlaze557    2106

I'm not sure how relevant it is, but I just realized that if you have a kycoo on board with a royal prison face up against standard dragons they can't play yugioh.

 

 nvm just realized they can just banish from hand. to summon from hand. It's late. I'm going to sleep.

 

You're thinking of Mind Drain + Kycoo.

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crowstar    25

Is still worth siding retort anymore? I mean there weren't that many spellbook players at the last YCS or the ARG open.

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Keitzo    33

It depends how you've built your main really. If you're maining multiple copies of MSTs and Maxx C's you effectively free up 3-6 spaces in your side meaning you can fit in your core sides then have a few spaces to play around with. These spaces can really be anything you feel will be most effective at the event you are attending. If you have these spaces, using 2 of them on Retort isn't really a bad call. You either don't use them or they become clutch in that one/two rounds or maybe even the top cut where you get that one spellbook player. If this doesn't happen then fine, 2 cards you didn't use. It's not really a problem, you can't risk siding extra anti-dragon cards here because over siding is very real in this deck and will lose you games.

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G Λ r Ω N    5934

I'm not sure how relevant it is, but I just realized that if you have a kycoo on board with a royal prison face up against standard dragons they can't play yugioh.
 
 nvm just realized they can just banish from hand. to summon from hand. It's late. I'm going to sleep.

 
You're thinking of Mind Drain + Kycoo.

No it is Royal Prison and Mind Drain, they can't activate a Dragon in the grave to special, nor can they trigger a Dragon summon from the hand.

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Keitzo    33

 

I'm not sure how relevant it is, but I just realized that if you have a kycoo on board with a royal prison face up against standard dragons they can't play yugioh.
 
 nvm just realized they can just banish from hand. to summon from hand. It's late. I'm going to sleep.

 
You're thinking of Mind Drain + Kycoo.

 


No he's right with Royal Prison and Mind Drain, he can't activate a Dragon in the grave to special, nor can he trigger a Dragon summon from the hand.

Edit: Oh Royal Prison and Mind Drain I'm retarded

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Soul    7950

dude really said you don't have any monsters that float. do you realize you can grab life at any time? do you realize world grabs 2 books from the grave on your turn? or sb magician searches from deck? if you don't like torrential you are probably just playing it wrong. it's generally a last resort trap. you use fate and everything else before torrent (usually). when they get desperate and go for that extra push, you flip it for the ggs. 

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»victor    6399

So this is in all likelihood, going to be the future of Spellcasters for the near future:

 

300px-ReadyforIntercepting-TU08-EN-R-UE.

 

As you can see, this is Book of Moon for Warriors and Spellcasters.

 

Not only can you flip SB Mage and GK Spy facedown again, you can also tear apart Noble Knights via disruption (can't Synchro or XYZ, lose an Equip too, etc), and what's more you can conserve Fate's BoM eff (or better, use them in tandem). Obviously Fate is searchable, works with Eternity, etc.

 

You also have plays that shutdown Crimson Blader, Colossal Fighter, Big Eye, etc. for what it's worth.

 

Though it should be noted, turning Casters facedown turns off a lot of cards, just as much as it does Warriors.

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Rambolapio    6
I'm not sure if you guys have spoken about this or not but I would like to post this here. 3 Blue Boy 3 Temperance 2 World 2 Stoic 2 Maxx "c" 1 Priestess 13 3 Secret 2 Crescent 2 Masters 2 Eternity 2 Fate 2 Tower 1 Power 1 Wisdom 1 Life 1 Lightning Vortex 1 Foolish Burial 18 2 Mirror Force 2 Raigeki Break 1 Solemn Warning 1 Bottomless 1 Torrential 1 PWWB 1 Sixth Sense 9 So hear me out. World is the best card in the deck so why not take advantage of it? This build has worked wonderfully for me and I would love this to be discussed. Before saying the deck is inconsistent or cute you should really consider testing it.
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Rambolapio    6
I'm not sure if you guys have spoken about this or not but I would like to post this here. 3 Blue Boy 3 Temperance 2 World 2 Stoic 2 Maxx "c" 1 Priestess 13 3 Secret 2 Crescent 2 Masters 2 Eternity 2 Fate 2 Tower 1 Power 1 Wisdom 1 Life 1 Lightning Vortex 1 Foolish Burial 18 2 Mirror Force 2 Raigeki Break 1 Solemn Warning 1 Bottomless 1 Torrential 1 PWWB 1 Sixth Sense 9 So hear me out. World is the best card in the deck so why not take advantage of it? This build has worked wonderfully for me and I would love this to be discussed. Before saying the deck is inconsistent or cute you should really consider testing it.

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Rambolapio    6
I'm not sure if you guys have spoken about this or not but I would like to post this here. 3 Blue Boy 3 Temperance 2 World 2 Stoic 2 Maxx "c" 1 Priestess 13 3 Secret 2 Crescent 2 Masters 2 Eternity 2 Fate 2 Tower 1 Power 1 Wisdom 1 Life 1 Lightning Vortex 1 Foolish Burial 18 2 Mirror Force 2 Raigeki Break 1 Solemn Warning 1 Bottomless 1 Torrential 1 PWWB 1 Sixth Sense 9 So hear me out. World is the best card in the deck so why not take advantage of it? This build has worked wonderfully for me and I would love this to be discussed. Before saying the deck is inconsistent or cute you should really consider testing it.

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El Panico    53

Got 4th place at LA regional with books. Deck was great, ill post list later today. It's literally standard as fuck tho.

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El Panico    53

http://i.imgur.com/YLChGBH.png

 

Deck ran really really well. Stumbling was by far the mvp of the side and transmigration was a close second. Both played a big role in not dropping a single dragon match. Jowgen wasn't very good, I only put it in when going first and the only two times I drew it I lost those games. Also world is a ridiculous card.

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I got 2nd at AZ regionals with this deck, also kinda standard. I tried to find Stumblings the week before the tournament but nobody had them and I was too lazy to order them online.

http://i.imgur.com/34ABDcH.png

9 rounds, 4 of which were Rulers. Played against Constellars and Swarm and even Combo Madolche but no Spellbooks so the Retorts never came in. Many players weren't really prepared to see Books, either; I know my round 9 opponent (Dragons) was only able to side his Spaces.

2 Power and 2 Wisdom both put in a lot of work, especially since running Kycoo and Justice means that drawing Wisdom and Power (or one and Crescent into the other) is rarely a brick. In fact, just running the 3 Justice meant my main engine flowed so well that I didn't miss World one bit. I know World is powerful and "unfair" and all but the only other deck at that level of "unfairness" is Dragons, which Kycoo does just as good of a job if not better of winning against. The main engine is unfair enough to beat any other deck, especially with the consistency added by the higher monster count. It's also nice not having to run PWWB and Break.

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Jazriel    38

I got 2nd at AZ regionals with this deck, also kinda standard. I tried to find Stumblings the week before the tournament but nobody had them and I was too lazy to order them online.

http://i.imgur.com/34ABDcH.png

9 rounds, 4 of which were Rulers. Played against Constellars and Swarm and even Combo Madolche but no Spellbooks so the Retorts never came in. Many players weren't really prepared to see Books, either; I know my round 9 opponent (Dragons) was only able to side his Spaces.

2 Power and 2 Wisdom both put in a lot of work, especially since running Kycoo and Justice means that drawing Wisdom and Power (or one and Crescent into the other) is rarely a brick. In fact, just running the 3 Justice meant my main engine flowed so well that I didn't miss World one bit. I know World is powerful and "unfair" and all but the only other deck at that level of "unfairness" is Dragons, which Kycoo does just as good of a job if not better of winning against. The main engine is unfair enough to beat any other deck, especially with the consistency added by the higher monster count. It's also nice not having to run PWWB and Break.

 

Did you ever wish Fiendish Chain was a Veiler instead?

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Welchy    568

I have noticed something. I'm really only losing to return and sixth sense. My question is, does that give trap stun value at all in this deck particularly?

 

EDIT: I mean enough value to warrant running. im using 3 MST atm and thats great, but on top would trap stun be too much?

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Soul    7950

ive been trying trap stun in the main, it's been kinda meh. 

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Welchy    568
Would dust be a better alternative?

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Soul    7950

Nah. I feel like raigeki break and pwwb, etc do not hurt at all. You have wisdom for every backrow but emptiness, return, and sense. If I was going to run more anti backrow in addition to mst, it'd undoubtedly be trap stun. Decree would be pretty risky considering it only leaves you with fate as protection when you resolve it, and you are rarely killing them the turn you'd flip decree. Trap stun is the best card for the situation. However the question is rather it's warranted to try and out a select few cards that cause you trouble, and it being dead all game if they don't resolve those cards. 

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I think Trap Stun is interesting, but more often than not, I see it being dead or at least less useful than cards you could've run in its place. Like Soul said, we have wisdom for most backrow.

Something that I've seen pop up in occasional OCG decklists is Scape Goat. Besides protecting life points, is there something about SG's utility? It seems that the Justice build is most popular there, and I do sort of understand SG in that deck because justice leaves you defenseless, but is that it?

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Welchy    568
I think it has enough value in being able to stop the power cards of the format. I can see why you would think it would be dead every other time which is what I've been thinking myself, mainly being the reason I wanted bring it to discussion.

In terms of effectiveness, it is obviously better in some matches than others. In our Dragon match, which should be the only match that really matters at this point, it hits between 6-8 cards in their maindeck. Pretty much all of their defense and the power cards. The value I see here is protecting tower a bit more from Raigeki break and pwwb, as well as protecting your power plays in general (similar to wisdom). Turns off their emptiness and you are even able to lock them out sometimes.

Conversely, its not real defense and can even conflict with your real defense (using maiden mitigates this quite a bit tbh). Its also slow being that its a trap.

I'm pretty sure there are more things I'm missing, like touching on reckless greed (relevant?) and being really good in our fire fist matchup, which I consider one of the hardest for this deck. But I think I covered dragons for the most part.

Let's consider ratios for a second. This deck is very tricky as you have to run a set, "core", amount of books, which if I'm not mistaken is 17 books minimum. You also have your monster count which is usually 11-12, and at the bare minimum you want about 7 defensive cards that don't include fate to give you the likelihood of opening at least 1. Throw in 3 MST and sixth sense, all of a sudden you are out of room. My question here is, where does trap stun fit into this? To group it with mst and sixth sense, means you have to take away from the other important areas listed above. Not sure how maiden affects these ratios as theoretically you could label her as defense, but she's more of an offensive powerhouse then anything.

Also, when running trap stun, how many do you use? As a 1-of - you arnt likely to have it when you need it, defeating the purpose of using it at all in my eyes. So using 2 seems like the right idea.

Sorry for the wall of text, I'm just trying to create discussion in this baron wasteland.

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Jazriel    38

ETzvm9P.png

 

I did this as a joke since I kept finding there wasn't enough room to run all the good cards, but this is probably the best spellbook build I've tested this format so far. This doesn't mean a whole lot since I can only really test against DN and my local meta, but it's at least interesting. I have the room for all the traps I want, all the monsters I want, and all the spells I want. Side deck is just whatever right now. My favourite plays are opening with a searcher and a trap (happens most games), and going foolish burial > stoic > fetch temperance, or using foolish > world > life.

 

The ratios are all still good, ideally I open with 1 trap, 1-2 monsters, and 3-4 spells. Those monsters usually being something that gives me presence on the field (breaker, blue, HP), or in combination with my traps lets me stay alive for a turn to get rolling. Odds of drawing or opening with World is very low. Once this deck gets rolling there isn't really anything that can stop it. Having traps to deal with monsters means I don't need to use fate for monsters, or I can use Fate for different reasons. People try to play around Fate like Angel of Zera or saving to make big plays with dragons which all fails to my other traps.

 

This is just my second draft of this, I think Duality deserves a spot and the trap line-up can be changed. It might be possible to trim down the spell ratios and make the deck slightly smaller, but I've never had much of a problem with that.

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ETzvm9P.png

 

I did this as a joke since I kept finding there wasn't enough room to run all the good cards, but this is probably the best spellbook build I've tested this format so far. This doesn't mean a whole lot since I can only really test against DN and my local meta, but it's at least interesting. I have the room for all the traps I want, all the monsters I want, and all the spells I want. Side deck is just whatever right now. My favourite plays are opening with a searcher and a trap (happens most games), and going foolish burial > stoic > fetch temperance, or using foolish > world > life.

 

The ratios are all still good, ideally I open with 1 trap, 1-2 monsters, and 3-4 spells. Those monsters usually being something that gives me presence on the field (breaker, blue, HP), or in combination with my traps lets me stay alive for a turn to get rolling. Odds of drawing or opening with World is very low. Once this deck gets rolling there isn't really anything that can stop it. Having traps to deal with monsters means I don't need to use fate for monsters, or I can use Fate for different reasons. People try to play around Fate like Angel of Zera or saving to make big plays with dragons which all fails to my other traps.

 

This is just my second draft of this, I think Duality deserves a spot and the trap line-up can be changed. It might be possible to trim down the spell ratios and make the deck slightly smaller, but I've never had much of a problem with that.


You have got to be kidding me

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