Jump to content
ACP

100 Reasons Why Your Game is Awful

Recommended Posts

»Pharaoh Atem    15769

What kind of question is that? I have an opinion, so I'm allowed to express it? You don't see me saying, "Maybe if you feel so negatively about DGz, you should just shut up and leave."


I feel more negatively about DG than he does, and I've felt that strongly ever since I first came here. Didn't stop me from serving what I felt was a worthwhile community, despite its gruesome faults in places.

The difference is that educators serve a higher purpose than common bitching. So, Danker pops in to educate, and I from time to time tell him he's not good at relating to you fuckwits.

You're allowed to express your opinion, just don't expect it to be taken seriously when you PRESENT it in the way you do. The flaw with your way of behaving isn't one of substance, but style. You don't see ME acting childish to people over petty things: the only things that ever truly anger me on ygo matters now are matters of persons conspiring to be unfair to other persons. And DG looks like it desires the right to be unfair, quite often.

In the face of that fairness concern, all other ygo concerns are... petty. Dust in the wind. Water under the bridge. My priorities are in order: yours do not seem to be, because of how... raw your emotion seems when you go on about ygo's faults.

I don't WANT to suspect you of having big regret and resentment regarding how invested you were in the game, but you really give off that vibe, because of how goddamn strong your reactions are.

You're telling us things we all know, and unlike me, you're not serving some noble cause in your posts. Noble causes get to hijack threads, too.





Let me hand DG a thought experiment. This is not a statement about how DG actually feels, but a statement about how DG looks.

It would not be unrealistic, for example, for me to feel that the few younger players you all can truly tolerate for long are those who're smaller copies of yourselves, or are too ignorant of things to resist being preyed upon. The moment a little kid felt like you weren't giving him a fair trade, you'd probably all threaten to rape his mother. The moment a little kid felt like your crude sense of humor wasn't cool, you'd probably threaten to rape his mother twice. I see this sort of behavior in players all the time, both on the net and irl.

It also doesn't help that, if you're all ever punished for that behavior, you get righteously indignant, as if you ever had the right to behave in such ways toward a child.

Likewise, it wouldn't be unrealistic for me to expect you to have a rabid dislike of anyone who isn't exactly as bleeding-edge at ygo as you all are.

You may allege that no one sensible would think these things about DG.

I disagree: I care for this place more than nearly anyone else here, and I claim it's entirely warranted for people who don't know DG to think so poorly of it. Truly, we have the worst PR in the world, probably because we actively groom an image of being a place explicitly for assholes.

Now, how does this thought experiment apply?

Simple, Pennington: you aren't as lousy a sort as you portray yourself, just like how DG isn't as lousy a site as it portrays itself. So learn some... subtlety. Learn how to be curt. Learn how to, I don't know, take a goddamn verbal punch? I don't even know what to reccomend anymore.




I dealt with my "RAWR SHIT IS STUPID" emotions years ago, gentlemen. I advise you get up to speed, otherwise you're just gonna make it take longer for you to get over it and get what you want in life.

That's all I really want, is for you all to get what you want. I want you all to have nothing to bitch about, and I'm willing to tell you all the hard truths that're waiting for you.

 

For those of you who wanna jump ship, it's fine, you don't fucking need a thread like this to have the balls to jump ship. I branched out into other games on my own: you can too. 

 

For those that don't, it's also fine, and you might feel better if you come up with improvements. DGers tend to be good at that.

 

But don't spend all your time just spinning your wheels. That makes me think you guys actually like being upset.






Honestly, if DG seemed all effete and preoccupied with proper manners like how Konami is, I'd probably refrain from cursing you all out every two seconds.

But hey, eight years of watching DG use verbal abuse as its main fuel kind of gets a boy used to verbally abusing the membership, ya dig?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»Pharaoh Atem    15769

so is esper control worth learning?

 

i'm seriously tired of ygo now

 

every time I've looked at Magic, Red's always looked fun

 

Not sure if competitive, but always seemed fun

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»Pharaoh Atem    15769

so is esper control worth learning?
 
i'm seriously tired of ygo now

I would say yes, but it's my favorite deck. There are a ton of viable or possibly viable standard decks right now. The pro tour produced some great decks, but didn't stabilize the format or anything.

The good thing about esper control is that if you metagame well it will be good for the whole format.

Hit me with some card names to learn from the deck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»ACP    33422

Don't feel like responding to everything.

 

I am dealing in facts. Magic is an objectively better game than Yugioh. From what I can see from reading this thread, there are only two reasons that people continue to play Yugioh.

1. "I'm too pot committed" - In other words, I've been playing this game for too long and don't want all of that experience to go to waste. See Hoban's post a few pages back. This has nothing to do with the qualities of the game itself and is based on personal circumstance.

2. "I have friends who play" - I've maintained pretty much all of my Yugioh friends despite no longer playing. You're basically saying that you have worse social skills than me, which should be impossible. Again, this is also based on personal circumstance rather than the game itself.

 

Just because I threw in a few jokes doesn't automatically invalidate all of the well-reasoned points that I made. I'm not sure what you're fighting for, but it doesn't sound winnable. I have successfully converted many a duelist over to Magic the Gathering, and will continue to do so.

 

Atem, I find it funny that you pulled the "people don't take you seriously" card. I'm pretty sure people stopped taking you seriously awhile ago when you changed from a wise black philosopher into an psychotic anime villain.

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»John Danker    945

I've never known someone to spend as much time hating on something they've spent so much time doing I don't believe. I'm happy for you that you've moved on Allen....but you really haven't moved on and that was the what my question was about. It has no logic that you spend so much time ranting and raving about a game you've moved on from. That signals to me some possibilities:
1. You haven't really moved on, the game still has a grip on you.
2. You didn't accomplish what you set out to in the game and the only way you can mentally move on it to attempt to belittle it to make yourself feel better about it all.
3. You wish to take as many of your friends with you but you feel the only way to accomplish that is a smear campaign appealing to emotion.

A lot of the points you present in the OP are excellent, others hold no water at all. The biggest problem is that you're not yet mature enough, experienced enough, nor have the presence to go about presenting them in a manner in which anyone but brats will listen, you don't yet have the ability to gain the trust and respect of adults yet. You're strongly intellectual.....but your level of wisdom just plummets in comparison.


 

  • Upvote 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+Gojira    1706
Actually the smear campaign really doesn't appeal to emotion. The only thing yugioh. has going for it besides the points he just listed is nostalgia and if you like playing with costless and unbalanced cards. Yugioh is a fun game to play, that's why it still exists, and that iis not the argument. The competitive environment is awful, and the card design is questionable a lot of the time. The biggest thing for me isn't even that. The game has no depth. In certain old formats there were a lot of things you could explore in yugioh, but now it's just that one hot tech card which isn't really that significant. In magic there is always guaranteed depth. With a new limited format every set, rotation, and non-rotating formats with giant card pools, there is always more to the game that a player hasn't discovered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
POLLUTEDxDELTA    1889

And what've I told you all to do for years?

Either carry yourselves with class and prepare for a long haul and a lot of compromise, or quit for now, potentially permanently.

I've told you all this for fucking years.

And the moment I tell you "I was right," you all act like I never taught you a goddamned thing.

 

Kind of a tough post to respond to, but I'll do my best. 

 

Since I first came to DGZ I've read most of your posts / walls of text / textbooks, because I knew that whether or not I agreed with you, in some universe you were correct. Over time my perspectives as a person and a player have both changed and grown - from being 19 to 23 and from being full time Yugioh to full time Magic. You have made this exact post in many different ways over the years, so when I read it again it reminded me of how much I have matured.

 

Around 2008-2009, I was okay with how Yugioh was. Yeah it was overpowered, but I knew as a player I could take advantage of things and use the power creep to my advantage. The trouble came when I started getting in the scenarios with Solemn Judgment and DSF - whether I should Solemn something, risking my opponent's face down being their own Solemn, and then, how screwed I was to DSF no matter what I did. When I started seeing there was no correct answer and I was losing to worse players, it started being a real mind fuck. 

 

On the opposite end, I was following Magic somewhat closely and saw Gabriel Nassif's win at PT Kyoto in 2009. Although Magic had it's issues with Faeries and Jund, most of the issues got cleaned up as time past, as Yugioh kept going down slippery slopes. The problem became, why the hell am I grinding so hard at Yugioh? I was comfortable doing the part-time-hustler-to-beat-reprints thing, and because I was a good player I won way more tournaments than I lost to DSF or Solemn predicaments. But even those small amounts of losses threw me for loops - particularly SJC Indy 2009. 

 

As I posted earlier in the thread, there is nothing I could have read or been told that would have convinced me to compromise or quit, and living on the fence was pretty miserable. It took me losing to a retard to have to finally want to quit Yugioh. 

 

So for the compromise or quit perspective, it only made sense to me long after quitting Yugioh and playing Magic (although people can come to a similar conclusion without switching to Magic). Reading your posts didn't help me in between that process - it was a path that I had to journey on my own. Like, you can tell a child that fire is hot, but they won't learn until they burn themselves for the first time. My point being is that despite your intentions, most of your posts go on deaf ears, because the things you say must be grown into, not taught. 

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+Urthor    10225

he biggest problem is that you're not yet mature enough, experienced enough, nor have the presence to go about presenting them in a manner in which anyone but brats will listen, you don't yet have the ability to gain the trust and respect of adults yet. You're strongly intellectual.....but your level of wisdom just plummets in comparison.

 


He wrote it for his intended audience, us.  I don't see how you're hammering him over that, if he wanted this to be for Konami he would have written it that way.  Like ok DGz behaves petulantly on here, but most people are reasonably self-aware and get that how they talk on here isn't normal behavior.  I'm pretty sure when a bunch of people sent emails into Konami because of something Allen and Perovic thought up it wasn't anything like as aggressive or with Allen's tone. 

 

Like Allen's agenda with this is to try and scoop as many people to come hang out with him on DGz's MTG forum.  You're giving him stick for not toeing the line in terms of Konami's culture and not promoting change, but they're not ideas presented to the adults at all. 

 

He's given up on that front, while the adults are obviously trying their best in terms of getting out battle pack and PSCT for us, they're incredibly inconsistent and happy to make mistakes hand over fist alongside that .  It's being presented to us as players only.

  • Upvote 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»Pharaoh Atem    15769

And what've I told you all to do for years?

Either carry yourselves with class and prepare for a long haul and a lot of compromise, or quit for now, potentially permanently.

I've told you all this for fucking years.

And the moment I tell you "I was right," you all act like I never taught you a goddamned thing.

 

Kind of a tough post to respond to, but I'll do my best. 

 

Since I first came to DGZ I've read most of your posts / walls of text / textbooks, because I knew that whether or not I agreed with you, in some universe you were correct. Over time my perspectives as a person and a player have both changed and grown - from being 19 to 23 and from being full time Yugioh to full time Magic. You have made this exact post in many different ways over the years, so when I read it again it reminded me of how much I have matured.

 

Around 2008-2009, I was okay with how Yugioh was. Yeah it was overpowered, but I knew as a player I could take advantage of things and use the power creep to my advantage. The trouble came when I started getting in the scenarios with Solemn Judgment and DSF - whether I should Solemn something, risking my opponent's face down being their own Solemn, and then, how screwed I was to DSF no matter what I did. When I started seeing there was no correct answer and I was losing to worse players, it started being a real mind fuck. 

 

On the opposite end, I was following Magic somewhat closely and saw Gabriel Nassif's win at PT Kyoto in 2009. Although Magic had it's issues with Faeries and Jund, most of the issues got cleaned up as time past, as Yugioh kept going down slippery slopes. The problem became, why the hell am I grinding so hard at Yugioh? I was comfortable doing the part-time-hustler-to-beat-reprints thing, and because I was a good player I won way more tournaments than I lost to DSF or Solemn predicaments. But even those small amounts of losses threw me for loops - particularly SJC Indy 2009. 

 

As I posted earlier in the thread, there is nothing I could have read or been told that would have convinced me to compromise or quit, and living on the fence was pretty miserable. It took me losing to a retard to have to finally want to quit Yugioh. 

 

So for the compromise or quit perspective, it only made sense to me long after quitting Yugioh and playing Magic (although people can come to a similar conclusion without switching to Magic). Reading your posts didn't help me in between that process - it was a path that I had to journey on my own. Like, you can tell a child that fire is hot, but they won't learn until they burn themselves for the first time. My point being is that despite your intentions, most of your posts go on deaf ears, because the things you say must be grown into, not taught. 

 

 

I see your point.

 

Now I can be at peace.

 

Honestly, "quit or roll up your sleeves and let's get to work" has been the heart of this for me.

 

That said, I still think people mindlessly venting, perhaps with a lack of class in how they do so, doesn't do anything to truly help anyone.

 

 

 

Some consider me to waste my time on you guys.

I want to prove them wrong.

 

You're not making it easy for me to do that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»Pharaoh Atem    15769

he biggest problem is that you're not yet mature enough, experienced enough, nor have the presence to go about presenting them in a manner in which anyone but brats will listen, you don't yet have the ability to gain the trust and respect of adults yet. You're strongly intellectual.....but your level of wisdom just plummets in comparison.

 


He wrote it for his intended audience, us.  I don't see how you're hammering him over that, if he wanted this to be for Konami he would have written it that way.  Like ok DGz behaves petulantly on here, but most people are reasonably self-aware and get that how they talk on here isn't normal behavior.  I'm pretty sure when a bunch of people sent emails into Konami because of something Allen and Perovic thought up it wasn't anything like as aggressive or with Allen's tone. 

 

Like Allen's agenda with this is to try and scoop as many people to come hang out with him on DGz's MTG forum.  You're giving him stick for not toeing the line in terms of Konami's culture and not promoting change, but they're not ideas presented to the adults at all. 

 

He's given up on that front, while the adults are obviously trying their best in terms of getting out battle pack and PSCT for us, they're incredibly inconsistent and happy to make mistakes hand over fist alongside that .  It's being presented to us as players only.

 

Aye, but you can get how that comes off as just browbeating to someone like me, who actually wants y'all to just solve ya damn problems, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
POLLUTEDxDELTA    1889

@ Atem venting helps on an individual basis, but doesn't help the community as a whole.

 

I think on a personal level it was good for Allen to vent as much as he did, and now it's time for him to let those emotions die off with the thread. If he can do that, I think this sort of venting thread can be a success. The next problem is that going member-by-member and doing these Intervention things isn't really time effective, and won't give you the results you want.

 

But likewise, how many members actually read all of these posts? How many members just look for one-liners and Kirolos pictures? A lot of your posts speak to the larger DGZ community about personal subjects. But because they are not done on an individual level, it's harder for people to relate to. 

 

"You're not making it easy for me to do that" - this isn't an easy subject, and it can't be done easily either. It's a rare crowd that is open to having these conversations, and even rarer are those who are open to changing (like the saying, a glass full of water cannot have anything new poured into it). 

 

I do see a few players on here get better via you helping them. But it's never going to be at a more than one-by-one basis. The growth and struggle is too personal to be done with blanket statements.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»John Danker    945

I can understand venting and how it can be healthy and perhaps even necessary to move on. What I don't understand, especially from someone as intelligent as most we have participating in this discussion, is the desire to demean and belittle others as well as use foul language. Using such tactics only makes the user appear LESS intelligent, unable to maintain control, and to be childish is their demeanor. 

My point here is, I want anyone to enjoy their leisure time and you're all entitled to play whatever game you want and hold whatever opinion you wish, however, don't bring yourself and others down by acting in a childish / brat like manner voicing that opinion. At least attempt to make your maturity level match your intelligence level, I realize they don't go hand in hand but at least TRY?

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
beetle    1115

I've never known someone to spend as much time hating on something they've spent so much time doing I don't believe. I'm happy for you that you've moved on Allen....but you really haven't moved on and that was the what my question was about. It has no logic that you spend so much time ranting and raving about a game you've moved on from. That signals to me some possibilities:
1. You haven't really moved on, the game still has a grip on you.
2. You didn't accomplish what you set out to in the game and the only way you can mentally move on it to attempt to belittle it to make yourself feel better about it all.
3. You wish to take as many of your friends with you but you feel the only way to accomplish that is a smear campaign appealing to emotion.

A lot of the points you present in the OP are excellent, others hold no water at all. The biggest problem is that you're not yet mature enough, experienced enough, nor have the presence to go about presenting them in a manner in which anyone but brats will listen, you don't yet have the ability to gain the trust and respect of adults yet. You're strongly intellectual.....but your level of wisdom just plummets in comparison.


 

 

Like I still follow Yugioh, but I hate it fundamentally as a game.  It's honestly a terrible game that is way too confusing and gives little back in the way of rewards.  It's... just terrible, however it's completely fixable.  It's obvious our favorite developers care little about balance or power creep though so it's hard to respect them as a company.  Other games such as Magic and even Pokemon on some level actually seem to give a damn and don't just print $200 cards because they can.  Those are the companies I can at least respect, but around here there is no player base for them :/

 

John, I understand your side of this (people on a yugioh board bashing yugioh SEEMS RETARDED RIGHT?), but I don't understand why you defend Yugioh so much.  I literally cannot remember the last time in several years that I've heard Yugioh called a good game.  I can't speak for everyone, but I can remember when Yugioh was great, when it was hard, when it didn't cost $600+ to play, when the prizes meant something, when invites weren't a dime a dozen, when skill meant more than a 6th sense dice roll, etc.  That's the reason I still follow this game.  Holding onto the hope of something that will never come back.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»John Danker    945

What makes you think I'm defending "The game"? I've defended people within the game and efforts being made from those people. I don't think anywhere you've seen me write that the game itself is simply outstanding, without major flaws, or that people don't have a reason to want change. What I've done is to be critical about what people expect for how they go about wanting change or attempting to get that change.

Heck, I've worked to change the game longer, harder, and in ways that actually CAN change it than any of you.

You do have to realize though that at this point, it's business model has been very successful, there isn't a great deal of reason to change the game in their eyes.

  • Upvote 2
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lux    1558
It's just unfortunate that their business model doesn't involve the competitive tournament player. It's quite obvious that selling product is much more profitable than any YCS could ever be, so everyone asking for more better prize support and better formats will just be banging their heads against a wall waiting for something that's never going to come.

The thing that blows my mind (and probably going along with some of the points that Allen has been making) is that the things that can be done to change the game for the better will have absolutely no financial effect on KDE as a whole. It's not even anything that they haven't done in the past.

1. More Swiss rounds, less top cut
-More Swiss rounds means an easier flowing tournament. A cut to top 8 means less deck checks and an easier transition into your top cut elimination rounds. Believe it or not, a normal Swiss round with 200 or so competitors probably takes nearly as long as your Top 64 cut. If this is done you can....

2. Consolidate prize support, no entry packs
-Believe it or not (and evident by most of these forums) yugioh players love playing yugioh. If there is a YCS in the general area, players will pack a car and drive to it. You aren't going to find someone who won't enter an event because they aren't offering packs with your paid entry. That being said, imagine if your 2,000+ attendance YCS didn't require 10,000+ packs to be purchased, transported, and distributed before the event begins. Not only that, but now you have about $30,000 worth of packs that can now be reallocated back into the prize support for the top finishers.

The fact of the matter is, yugioh used to be a better game than magic. It's just appaling to me how yugioh can (in my opinion) take so many steps backwards, while magic takes so many steps forward. Don't get me wrong, it's not all the fault of KDE. The yugioh player base is pretty bad as a whole as far as stealing, cheating, and overall "breakin' the rules" is concerned. I have a ton of other ideas as well, but there's absolutely no point in trying to appeal to an organization so staunchly set in their ways that they can't see the forest for the trees. If their business model involved not fixing something that isn't broken, then we wouldn't be where we are today.
  • Upvote 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
beetle    1115

What makes you think I'm defending "The game"? I've defended people within the game and efforts being made from those people. I don't think anywhere you've seen me write that the game itself is simply outstanding, without major flaws, or that people don't have a reason to want change. What I've done is to be critical about what people expect for how they go about wanting change or attempting to get that change.

Heck, I've worked to change the game longer, harder, and in ways that actually CAN change it than any of you.

You do have to realize though that at this point, it's business model has been very successful, there isn't a great deal of reason to change the game in their eyes.

 

I won't argue that the game is successful.  Caterring to the casuals means more $$$ (Hello Nintendo Wii).  It doesn't mean it's a good product though.  I agree pretty much completely with the OP list and you can pretty much substitute "Magic" with anything.  We can agree that Allen may take it too far to get the  point across, but who can disagree with the reasoning?

 

fyi if you're reading this, go back a page and read Lux's comments.  Hit it pretty spot on in the last paragraph.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»Pharaoh Atem    15769

@ Atem venting helps on an individual basis, but doesn't help the community as a whole.

 

I think on a personal level it was good for Allen to vent as much as he did, and now it's time for him to let those emotions die off with the thread. If he can do that, I think this sort of venting thread can be a success. The next problem is that going member-by-member and doing these Intervention things isn't really time effective, and won't give you the results you want.

 

But likewise, how many members actually read all of these posts? How many members just look for one-liners and Kirolos pictures? A lot of your posts speak to the larger DGZ community about personal subjects. But because they are not done on an individual level, it's harder for people to relate to. 

 

"You're not making it easy for me to do that" - this isn't an easy subject, and it can't be done easily either. It's a rare crowd that is open to having these conversations, and even rarer are those who are open to changing (like the saying, a glass full of water cannot have anything new poured into it). 

 

I do see a few players on here get better via you helping them. But it's never going to be at a more than one-by-one basis. The growth and struggle is too personal to be done with blanket statements.

 

So, the problem isn't my motive, but my tactic.

 

Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»Pharaoh Atem    15769


What makes you think I'm defending "The game"? I've defended people within the game and efforts being made from those people. I don't think anywhere you've seen me write that the game itself is simply outstanding, without major flaws, or that people don't have a reason to want change. What I've done is to be critical about what people expect for how they go about wanting change or attempting to get that change.

Heck, I've worked to change the game longer, harder, and in ways that actually CAN change it than any of you.

You do have to realize though that at this point, it's business model has been very successful, there isn't a great deal of reason to change the game in their eyes.

 
I won't argue that the game is successful.  Caterring to the casuals means more $$$ (Hello Nintendo Wii).  It doesn't mean it's a good product though.  I agree pretty much completely with the OP list and you can pretty much substitute "Magic" with anything.  We can agree that Allen may take it too far to get the  point across, but who can disagree with the reasoning?
 
fyi if you're reading this, go back a page and read Lux's comments.  Hit it pretty spot on in the last paragraph.
 



Good in this matter of gaming is entirely subjective, and here we are, trying to treat it as an objective. This is part of why, to anyone who isn't already emotionally swayed one way or another, a lot of positions are going to fall on deaf ears - and part of why Allen comes off as such a fucking pompous ass.

"It (money, profit, success in business) doesn't mean it (the game) is good" is thus an irrelevant critique, if I may be frank: the only critique that one ought ever make is whether or not we can make ygo cast a wider net that pleases more people, more kinds of people, more demographics, so on.

If you want to attack these issues as a "the game sucks but is successful" way of framing the battle, you will not only lose the battle, the on;y thing you will do is make your cause a needlessly partisan one.

If you want to be wise, attack it as a "why is the net cast so narrow, can't we widen it, can't we have cake and eat it too" situation. Not as a conspiracy, as so many competitively minded players like to accuse. Not as foolishness, as so many skilled players like to accuse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»Pharaoh Atem    15769

It's just unfortunate that their business model doesn't involve the competitive tournament player.


This is false, otherwise you wouldn't have had Organized Play as we've known it TCG side for the last... nearly ten years now, right?

The Org can explain in detail, but Konami itself spends lots of green to run premier events, and it doesn't need to. Sure, it EVENTUALLY makes that back over time, but they could just as easily have put work into fostering a much more localized event structure - less bombastic shit like YCSs that have ridic venue pricing, and more stuff riding the line between a Locals or a Regionals. The way Japan has done tournaments for years is almost certain to be much less costly, and the argument that premier events drive sales remains... inconclusive in light of the game's not having died in territories without premier events.

The competitive player by and large loves these events, and they have never been necessary at all: they're just a fuckload of fun, and on some level, the game isn't just a fucking business. KDE-US and KDE-E understand that much, as did their UDE successor ships, when fighting for the right to make those premier events. KDE-J may not have understood it as much. (If we ever see YCS Tokyo, we're going to flip right the fuck out and book plane tickets.)

 

Point is, you don't get to play the "we aren't part of it" card: we are, JUST NOT ON THE LEVEL WE WANT. this isn't a case of us not having a seat at the table, because we have one: we've just done a damn good job of throwing food at people from our seat. The competitive audience sucks at properly combining intelligence, tact, and respect, which is to be expected of the typical age of that audience.

 

 

It's quite obvious that selling product is much more profitable than any YCS could ever be, so everyone asking for more better prize support and better formats will just be banging their heads against a wall waiting for something that's never going to come.

 

Granted. Yes, it sucks. I would expect getting over THIS detail to be part ONE of someone still being in the goddamn game, though. Remember, we ARE in a game where some people, either at a ygo company or in law enforcement of the game's territories, expect the players on some level to misbehave if the prizes get much nicer.

Lemme bring up the example of cash.

Cash can't be done on grounds of a cash prize actually being gambling in the eyes of many jurisdictions, for example, not to mention the rightful distaste the companies have for such a prize's potential influence on player behavior. 

Unless you want to make an Atem cloning machine and turn the "punish as harsh as possible" personality setting to 11, you will not have a staff that can handle this playerbase seeking a worthwhile cash prize.

 

 

The thing that blows my mind (and probably going along with some of the points that Allen has been making) is that the things that can be done to change the game for the better will have absolutely no financial effect on KDE as a whole. It's not even anything that they haven't done in the past.

 

Finance is not the only goal, otherwise you could probably expect KDE-J to have taken a bit of an angrier stance at premier events. 

Some of us fear that KDE-J may in fact someday do just that. We don't like the idea of a YCS being a thing of the past, but it may someday happen if KDE-J or someone else high in command wills it.

 

 

1. More Swiss rounds, less top cut
-More Swiss rounds means an easier flowing tournament. A cut to top 8 means less deck checks and an easier transition into your top cut elimination rounds. Believe it or not, a normal Swiss round with 200 or so competitors probably takes nearly as long as your Top 64 cut. If this is done you can....

 

It also makes for a much higher hurdle, one that players don't necessarily feel they can surmount. These tournaments are pointless if they are not attractive, and we have no need to take any chances with their being attractive or not. A lower cut will leave a degree of breathing room in the common player's mind, making the travel to the venue for the event something with a higher chance to seem worthwhile.

Deckchecks and transition are no pain to a well-seasoned judge corps: which is what we have show up, invariably, when talking about the best premier events. Konami essentially chose to deal with those troubles on purpose, as the consequences are miniscule in comparison to the expected benefits of that choice. A little more trouble earns us a means of worming our way into player psychology, luring them to the venue with whispers of victory.

 

 

2. Consolidate prize support, no entry packs
-Believe it or not (and evident by most of these forums) yugioh players love playing yugioh. If there is a YCS in the general area, players will pack a car and drive to it. You aren't going to find someone who won't enter an event because they aren't offering packs with your paid entry. That being said, imagine if your 2,000+ attendance YCS didn't require 10,000+ packs to be purchased, transported, and distributed before the event begins. Not only that, but now you have about $30,000 worth of packs that can now be reallocated back into the prize support for the top finishers.

 

I doubt that you have a grasp of how uncommon that sort of mindset is when an event's costs begin to go past 5 bucks.

Players packing a car either requires them to have enough security in "burning money on enjoyment" to do so, or for them to feel like they're gonna get something worthwhile out of it. Packs help the latter, indubitably.

Essentially, as it is now, it stands to give everyone a chance of feeling like they get something out of their time spent, because if you've dealt with the sections of the playerbase I've faced, you see how quickly that "people go to events just because they love shit" emotion DIES.

 

It is my feeling that people who don't care much about the entry packs are people who, frankly, don't care much IN PART BECAUSE they consider themselves good enough to stand a chance at the big prize anyway - and this in turn makes them want that big prize to be bigger, to properly "reward" them with the accolade they "deserve" because of their "triumph" and their being "better".

 

Of COURSE one would feel like the entry packs don't matter: their not being around frankly suits whoever stands the best shot at the big prize. Players are not above having beliefs that are silently self-serving.
 

 

The fact of the matter is, yugioh used to be a better game than magic. It's just appaling to me how yugioh can (in my opinion) take so many steps backwards, while magic takes so many steps forward. Don't get me wrong, it's not all the fault of KDE. The yugioh player base is pretty bad as a whole as far as stealing, cheating, and overall "breakin' the rules" is concerned. I have a ton of other ideas as well, but there's absolutely no point in trying to appeal to an organization so staunchly set in their ways that they can't see the forest for the trees. If their business model involved not fixing something that isn't broken, then we wouldn't be where we are today.

 

Really, the disconnect is partially because the arguments you've made so far are nowhere near conclusive, and thus nowhere near convincing, unless we buy into the initial premises you present.

 

Those initial premises are, in your posting, as follows:

1) konami doesn't involve the competitive player - oversimplified

2) product selling is more profitable than not selling product - spot on

3) proposed changes below won't have financial impact - you've nowhere near enough information to prove such a claim, meaning that either it's wrong or it's right and Konami's going "screw the money I have rules" (which is entirely contrary to the flawed perception of Konami as being nothing but moneygrubbers)

4) more swiss = easier flow - I don't know about you, but it's harder for me to watch over an entire body of swiss competitors than a body of top cut competitors, even if I have to watch more top cut rounds

5) peeps go to shit out of love - this is a very idealistic view, which would work if every player were me, but look the fuck around you, there's far too much predation in the very air for this to be a realistic claim on its own merit. players do it partially out of love, in various amounts from player to player. Don't eliminate the fact that some of you are in it solely or near-solely to win, or your argument will be DOA.

 

 

I sympathize with how you feel, but the fact that a random nobody like myself can just rationalize away every last bit shows that there's still work you need to do to close this case.

 

and unless someone closes this case, it's gonna continue to fester.

 

It is also a horrid argumentative strategy to play the "not worth trying to talk to a company set in its ways" card after making particularly clear that the behavior of some players is part of why the company is so set in its ways, mate. If change is going to happen, it has to begin in the lot of us first, and in how we behave. It has to lead to people sympathetic to the needs of all players continuing to work with Konami, not against it. Even the ARG boys might be seen as working with Konami, on grounds that they are providing something Konami can observe, something that may drain some pressure caused by the most beliggerent anti-Konami elements of the playerbase.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Forest    311

For those looking to get into MTG, I would highly suggest you start with drafting. It will acquaint you with the mechanics of the game and some of current mechanics in standard. It has a low buy in, you don't need to invest in a deck from the get go. At your average FNM, if you are a decent player, you can rare draft and still win (pick money cards). Depending on the prize support your store has, you can either get store credit to reinvest into an eventual standard deck or receive packs in hope of pulling some value. Drafting is a good way to get acquainted with other players, it's very interactive -- discussing signals, what to pick in what color, etc. is a great way to meet other players on the local level. Coming from a Yugioh background, drafting was much more exciting from the get go than anything Yugioh offered because it's so different.

 

I started MTG through drafting because of my ex, who was a very good drafter. Eventually, my local started doing high roller draft, where I was able to save enough store credit to buy a full standard deck. With that standard deck I was able perform well enough to buyh cards that would speculatively increase dramatically during rotation last month, which has allowed me trade for multiple current standard decks. Yugioh offers nothing like this. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lux    1558
I can empathize with your statements, Earl. It's something that hurts me, the truth of the matter. It's the literal reason I don't play the game anymore. I LOVE yugioh, ya know? I've played, essentially, since the fuckin yugi and kaiba starter decks came out. Didn't really play competitively until after IOC came out since I was like.....15....but I've been there since the beginning. What I'm telling you is that the core components of everything that have surrounded the competitive tournament scene have changed sinced the SJC circuit was put into motion. I was at the first SJC in Orlando playing a complete Johnathan Umali netdeck (except I played a BTH over his raigeki break) and that tournament is what addicted me to the SJC scene. Obviously after winning the next SJC in Orlando, things further changed. You know at the SJC I won, they didn't give out playmats? I got a fucking dell XPS laptop that retailed for 2400 with its specs, a des volstgalph that I sold for $1,526 and change, and a box and a half of product.

Fast forward to now....rather than going 11-1 to win my tournament, you have to go a minimum of like 14-2 with the last 5 being wins. The game has much more variance because, unlike before, some turns take 2+ minutes to find and make the best play. The deck is searched like 8 times a turn (HUGE error on KDE's part creating all these cards and not having the competitive scene in mind) and the synchro/XYZ game mechanics have turned the game into something it previously was not. In addition, tournament structure has warped into something where "X-1 might not be good enough" to "meh, any X-2 will do". They've at least realized that the variance requires leniency, but we shouldn't be at this point in the first place.

I can easily say that the last 2-4 rounds of Swiss would be no different than watching the top cut, especially when you have 1 judge to every 2 tables in top cut, and eventually a judge per table as the top cut dwindles. I can easily come to anyone and say that prize allocation can be better. I can also say that those going to tournaments aren't going for the entry packs. Sure, when I go to an event and pay for my entry by pulling a Cardcar D, a Megalo, and ULT shi en (I've done all of these), it's nice. But you know, I feel better paying 40 dollars at a magic GP and getting an "entry package" without packs, than get these fucking entry packs and have this false sense of satisfaction that I can scrub and not care.

I'll finalize be saying that I'm a nobody too. Nobody knows who I am anymore. But my rationale is concrete. If Julia herself wants to come to me and poke holes in my points, then I welcome it, since people like Julia and Frank have an insider view on what we look at from the outside. But until somebody comes to me and says "you're wrong, here's the proof, here's why you're wrong", I am pretty sure my logically founded points are really solid. I'm pretty sure that, regardless what we think, Konami of America has it's hands tied by Konami of Japan. Japan has a strange way of doing things, and we really can't do anything about that. The only ball that's in our court is whether or not we play. Our opinions really aren't going to be relevant unless they're so ground breaking that KDE personally contacts you asking you for your opinion. Fighting the system is futile. Just play, or don't. Or play magic. Or get a life. It doesn't really matter.
  • Upvote 18

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
beetle    1115

 

What makes you think I'm defending "The game"? I've defended people within the game and efforts being made from those people. I don't think anywhere you've seen me write that the game itself is simply outstanding, without major flaws, or that people don't have a reason to want change. What I've done is to be critical about what people expect for how they go about wanting change or attempting to get that change.

Heck, I've worked to change the game longer, harder, and in ways that actually CAN change it than any of you.

You do have to realize though that at this point, it's business model has been very successful, there isn't a great deal of reason to change the game in their eyes.

 
I won't argue that the game is successful.  Caterring to the casuals means more $$$ (Hello Nintendo Wii).  It doesn't mean it's a good product though.  I agree pretty much completely with the OP list and you can pretty much substitute "Magic" with anything.  We can agree that Allen may take it too far to get the  point across, but who can disagree with the reasoning?
 
fyi if you're reading this, go back a page and read Lux's comments.  Hit it pretty spot on in the last paragraph.
 

 


Good in this matter of gaming is entirely subjective, and here we are, trying to treat it as an objective. This is part of why, to anyone who isn't already emotionally swayed one way or another, a lot of positions are going to fall on deaf ears - and part of why Allen comes off as such a fucking pompous ass.

"It (money, profit, success in business) doesn't mean it (the game) is good" is thus an irrelevant critique, if I may be frank: the only critique that one ought ever make is whether or not we can make ygo cast a wider net that pleases more people, more kinds of people, more demographics, so on.

If you want to attack these issues as a "the game sucks but is successful" way of framing the battle, you will not only lose the battle, the on;y thing you will do is make your cause a needlessly partisan one.

If you want to be wise, attack it as a "why is the net cast so narrow, can't we widen it, can't we have cake and eat it too" situation. Not as a conspiracy, as so many competitively minded players like to accuse. Not as foolishness, as so many skilled players like to accuse.

 

I get that there's more to it, but the amount of effort it would take to change the game is not something I am willing to put in nor do I think we can change anything.  I reside myself to bitching about Yugioh now in an effort to remake the glory days of the game.  Think of me like Clint in Gran Torino and his neighbors as Yugioh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»Pharaoh Atem    15769




What makes you think I'm defending "The game"? I've defended people within the game and efforts being made from those people. I don't think anywhere you've seen me write that the game itself is simply outstanding, without major flaws, or that people don't have a reason to want change. What I've done is to be critical about what people expect for how they go about wanting change or attempting to get that change.

Heck, I've worked to change the game longer, harder, and in ways that actually CAN change it than any of you.

You do have to realize though that at this point, it's business model has been very successful, there isn't a great deal of reason to change the game in their eyes.

 
I won't argue that the game is successful.  Caterring to the casuals means more $$$ (Hello Nintendo Wii).  It doesn't mean it's a good product though.  I agree pretty much completely with the OP list and you can pretty much substitute "Magic" with anything.  We can agree that Allen may take it too far to get the  point across, but who can disagree with the reasoning?
 
fyi if you're reading this, go back a page and read Lux's comments.  Hit it pretty spot on in the last paragraph.
 
 
 
 
 



Good in this matter of gaming is entirely subjective, and here we are, trying to treat it as an objective. This is part of why, to anyone who isn't already emotionally swayed one way or another, a lot of positions are going to fall on deaf ears - and part of why Allen comes off as such a fucking pompous ass.

"It (money, profit, success in business) doesn't mean it (the game) is good" is thus an irrelevant critique, if I may be frank: the only critique that one ought ever make is whether or not we can make ygo cast a wider net that pleases more people, more kinds of people, more demographics, so on.

If you want to attack these issues as a "the game sucks but is successful" way of framing the battle, you will not only lose the battle, the on;y thing you will do is make your cause a needlessly partisan one.

If you want to be wise, attack it as a "why is the net cast so narrow, can't we widen it, can't we have cake and eat it too" situation. Not as a conspiracy, as so many competitively minded players like to accuse. Not as foolishness, as so many skilled players like to accuse.
 
 
 


 
I get that there's more to it, but the amount of effort it would take to change the game is not something I am willing to put in nor do I think we can change anything.  I reside myself to bitching about Yugioh now in an effort to remake the glory days of the game.  Think of me like Clint in Gran Torino and his neighbors as Yugioh.
 
 
 
 



With all due respect, that's idiotic: you say "I don't want to put in effort", and in the NEXT sentence you say you bitch "in effort" to remake something.

Clint in Gran Torino was also an idiot (for having disdain for the priest).

I sympathize, but you're behaving stupidly. Either find a means of channeling your emotions to something productive - like, I don't know, brainstorming shit with those who do have the connections, or you help no one and make your bitching all about "waaaaah waaaaaah I'm sad and I want X but I don't wanna work for it."

When you do that, you give people REASON to want to throw our kind of player out of the game permanently, FOR being so lazy and selfish in complaining. I also wouldn't want to deal with people whose entire platform is "we want X and will remain fully unsatisfied until we have it, regardless of consequence" - and that, too often, is our side's position.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»John Danker    945

Right now, my personal goal as far as change in the game is to work to make premier events more enjoyable for the player. I think we need to really look at not just the competition but the "Event" to ensure the logistics are sound, the entertainment value is as high as possible (within the budget given) and that staff is every bit as concerned about customer service as it is maintaining the integrity of the event.

My personal opinion is that the first day of a YCS is simply too long to be enjoyable, especially for the youth that KDE is trying to introduce into the game as new players. I'm am certainly not opposed to taking lessons from another experienced TCG company in OP and the WoC thought pattern of splitting a tournament into 2 events, then bringing them back together for top cut single elimination in order to bring down the number of swiss rounds is a sound idea. The biggest problem there is that in order to split an event, you need more staff which requires a larger budget. Contrary to what many may think, it doesn't take the same amount of staff to run one event as it does two events even if the number of players for either is equal.

I also agree that EOM times have quickly become painful, especially when added up by the end of the day. A new EOM time limit needs to come into play. I'm uncertain what the particulars might be, that's debatable, however, a 15 min. after EOM time limit is reasonable, if neither player has secured match victory by that time, give both players a match victory......the need for the event to move forward is of greater importance than a very few matches declaring a victor.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»Pharaoh Atem    15769

I can empathize with your statements, Earl. It's something that hurts me, the truth of the matter. It's the literal reason I don't play the game anymore. I LOVE yugioh, ya know? I've played, essentially, since the fuckin yugi and kaiba starter decks came out. Didn't really play competitively until after IOC came out since I was like.....15....but I've been there since the beginning. What I'm telling you is that the core components of everything that have surrounded the competitive tournament scene have changed sinced the SJC circuit was put into motion. I was at the first SJC in Orlando playing a complete Johnathan Umali netdeck (except I played a BTH over his raigeki break) and that tournament is what addicted me to the SJC scene. Obviously after winning the next SJC in Orlando, things further changed. You know at the SJC I won, they didn't give out playmats? I got a fucking dell XPS laptop that retailed for 2400 with its specs, a des volstgalph that I sold for $1,526 and change, and a box and a half of product.

Fast forward to now....rather than going 11-1 to win my tournament, you have to go a minimum of like 14-2 with the last 5 being wins. The game has much more variance because, unlike before, some turns take 2+ minutes to find and make the best play. The deck is searched like 8 times a turn (HUGE error on KDE's part creating all these cards and not having the competitive scene in mind) and the synchro/XYZ game mechanics have turned the game into something it previously was not. In addition, tournament structure has warped into something where "X-1 might not be good enough" to "meh, any X-2 will do". They've at least realized that the variance requires leniency, but we shouldn't be at this point in the first place.

I can easily say that the last 2-4 rounds of Swiss would be no different than watching the top cut, especially when you have 1 judge to every 2 tables in top cut, and eventually a judge per table as the top cut dwindles. I can easily come to anyone and say that prize allocation can be better. I can also say that those going to tournaments aren't going for the entry packs. Sure, when I go to an event and pay for my entry by pulling a Cardcar D, a Megalo, and ULT shi en (I've done all of these), it's nice. But you know, I feel better paying 40 dollars at a magic GP and getting an "entry package" without packs, than get these fucking entry packs and have this false sense of satisfaction that I can scrub and not care.

I'll finalize be saying that I'm a nobody too. Nobody knows who I am anymore. But my rationale is concrete. If Julia herself wants to come to me and poke holes in my points, then I welcome it, since people like Julia and Frank have an insider view on what we look at from the outside. But until somebody comes to me and says "you're wrong, here's the proof, here's why you're wrong", I am pretty sure my logically founded points are really solid. I'm pretty sure that, regardless what we think, Konami of America has it's hands tied by Konami of Japan. Japan has a strange way of doing things, and we really can't do anything about that. The only ball that's in our court is whether or not we play. Our opinions really aren't going to be relevant unless they're so ground breaking that KDE personally contacts you asking you for your opinion. Fighting the system is futile. Just play, or don't. Or play magic. Or get a life. It doesn't really matter.


The flaw with your position is that despite admitting what I've said to be the truth, you've done nothing but parrot a longer version of what you initially said.

Either your first sentence about "it's the truth and the reason I no longer play" is bullshit, or you don't care it's true and want change by any means necessary, not realizing that the game isn't all about the desires of a small niche of the playerbase like you and I.

I've come to terms with the need for compromise: those that don't or can't are fated to look like they've got worse judgment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×