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Suspended List Updated

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Miss Click    2475

Where is the evidence these people are prone to illegal activity? One act isn't enough to define someone as prone. People mess up. We are not perfect beings.

 

I'm assuming the policy docs has some clause to the effect: "we reserve the right to refuse entry to whoever for whatever reason" (if so could someone point me in the proper direction)

 

And one other thing is, a number of these people are removed based on suspicion (according to the stories) rather than fact. I think that is where a major part of this issue is rising from. It seems like the real debate to be had is "Guilty until proven innocent" or "Innocent until proven Guilty". You also get into deeper issues of personal privacy here too.

 

Anyway, my main point was that people aren't bitching about people getting suspended in general but for matters that seemed to be outside Konami's realm.

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»Pharaoh Atem    15768

Thing is, Konami itself has a different idea of what is and isn't in Konami's realm

 

for example, do you know that (at least at one point, not sure if still true, but I bet it still is) you generally aren't welcome at events if you're in trouble with the authorities?

 

did you know that we as HJs ARE entitled to issue penalties based solely on suspicion, as long as our higher-ups would themselves assign the same penalty?

 

 

 

do you know how a UC-Cheating incident is handled? You mentioned "suspicion rather than fact", so I feel a reality check is in order

 

When a judge investigates a situation where UC-Cheating is a possible resulting penalty, it's almost NEVER going to be a case where one player makes explicitly clear that they cheated

 

essentially, because of this, an HJ MUST HAVE THE ABILITY to remove someone solely based on educated suspicion.

 

This is not "guilty until proven innocent", it is "the HJ is judge and jury, and if he feels convinced beyond reasonable doubt that you did something, he will nail you."

 

 

It is not "innocent until proven guilty", it is "innocent unless it is unreasonable to consider you innocent"

 

 

And you consent to this whenever you enter the venue.

 

 

the legal systems of RL are a LOT like what HJs do in ygo - because RL doesn't give a shit about trying to prove guilt beyond all doubt, just beyond all reasonable doubt

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is also in Konami's realm, because you agreed to follow this by entering the venue while the event is going on

 

tacit consent is a bitch like that

 

I personally think that if someone is fearful of a judge conspiracy being out to get them, they are not mentally well and should go to a doctor. The judges in my life honestly have too much shit to do as is, and hate the idea of DQing anyone for any reason, because to us that just makes the entire goddamn event have a black mark on its soul.

 

If someone cannot place their trust in people who have zero or near-zero interest in screwing you over, that someone has some severe trust issues and shouldn't just fear judges, but should also fear every opponent they ever meet (as opponents have a lot more goddamn interest in fucking you up).

 

Remember, when someone claims they can't trust judges to do the right thing, that's not just an abstract thing, that's LITERALLY a comment which means "I don't trust Atem"

 

and I do not find it appropriate to distrust me.

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»Pharaoh Atem    15768

Where is the evidence these people are prone to illegal activity?

Proneness doesn't imply repeat offenses, it implies likelihood and nothing more

 

and it is frankly idiotic to thing someone who hasn't commited crime X is not prone to committing crime X

 

people who HAVEN'T committed crime X are also prone, but they have their Good Reputation as a defense from criticism

 

someone who commits crime X does not have that Good Reputation as defense, at all

 

 

for example, I saved my grandfather's life once by breaking the law. No one gives a shit, and the way I broke the law has remained a means by which I may be denied employ.

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+Urthor    10208

If KDE didn't believe in giving people second chances, they wouldn't have a process to be reinstated for players to be in good standing again.

You guys crack me up, you whine, piss, and moan about KDE doing nothing about cheaters, then when someone gets suspended you whine, piss, and moan that people get suspended.

 

Yes because everyone being suspended is for cheating at card games?  Really?  DGz groupthink may be inward but it's never actually opposed banning people who're out and out cheating at card games from playing since I've been on here.  How about you quote something instead of making a pretty suspect generalisation.

 

"Konami gives people a 2nd chance, Konami cares, stop whining" is an awful argument to tell us to get off its case after people get banned for incredibly dubious reasons after multiple consecutive deck checks specifically targeting them.   Acting like the fact you're all nice guys doesn't allow you to escape criticism for your mistakes, and if we're wrong because you haven't told us all the details that's as much your fault as ours.

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»Pharaoh Atem    15768

inb4 Konami starts criminal record checking all of it's event-goers.

 

1) I don't believe they actively do it, but it's entirely within their rights to tell someone they're not welcome if they've got a serious record

2) If they actually do already check, then why would that be a reason to hate them?

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»Pharaoh Atem    15768

If KDE didn't believe in giving people second chances, they wouldn't have a process to be reinstated for players to be in good standing again.

You guys crack me up, you whine, piss, and moan about KDE doing nothing about cheaters, then when someone gets suspended you whine, piss, and moan that people get suspended.

 

Yes because everyone being suspended is for cheating at card games?  Really?  DGz groupthink may be inward but it's never actually opposed banning people who're out and out cheating at card games from playing since I've been on here.  How about you quote something instead of making a pretty suspect generalisation.

 

"Konami gives people a 2nd chance, Konami cares, stop whining" is an awful argument to tell us to get off its case after people get banned for incredibly dubious reasons after multiple consecutive deck checks specifically targeting them.   Acting like the fact you're all nice guys doesn't allow you to escape criticism for your mistakes, and if we're wrong because you haven't told us all the details that's as much your fault as ours.

 

DG groupthink kinda still has to exorcise the demons from back BEFORE you came here, Urthor

 

I think you weren't around for "I cheat so wut I win"

 

Konami's eyes have been around for that. They have reason to hold us all in marked suspicion, and to disagree with that is to be horribly naive.

 

Even I'm not above suspicion. I want you to wrap your head around that fact for a moment. My being associated with this place does not make things easier for me in any sense on the judging front, in part because I'm obligated by honor to defend you all. It gives me a lot of extra work, and on top of that, runs the risk of making me look corruptible.

 

I walk a very narrow line to help both sides of my allegiances. Please keep that in mind.

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»Pharaoh Atem    15768

Now, like I said earlier, give me details of incidents and we'll hash this shit out together.

 

I'm not gonna sit here and be ignored when I'm saying "it remains possible that y'all just misunderstand policy"

 

It's also possible someone did something corrupt, but we aren't gonna start a witch hunt just on suspicion and unverified testimonies

 

 

 

I feel DG as a site has a problem staying neutral in shit like this, precisely because people demand the right to take the side of a friend.

 

Loyalty is a good-natured trait to have, but loyalty shouldn't be given to one's friends just because they're one's friends. Loyalty should be given to people who deserve it - people who don't lie, cheat, steal, or do harm to others.

 

If someone is your friend, and they do something wrong, and they get pissed at you because you say that they did something wrong, your friend is a weak-willed person and needs to grow up. People don't have a right to run away from the truth.

 

It may come across as disrespectful, but considering the history DG has with cliques, it's only logical to note that some people do have a lot of friends who will take up for them, innocent or not. That makes this issue a special issue for DG: and requires me to make people support their testimonies well. I tire of DG's bad reputation, and I will change that reputation all by myself if I have to, because I'm tired of a few bad apples spoiling the way we look.



So, give me your testimony.

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+Urthor    10208

Yeah it's not 2009, people have given up on publicly advocating stacking the 12 y/o r2 LS player because he's a fuckwit playing LS ready to suicide ppl who are actually trying out of the tournament.  That died when people realised that trying to fix a broken card game by cheating when there's basically no prizes to win is just dumb.  Not that it doesn't happen and almost everyone you meet playing YGO has done it at one time or another and probably still do, but we're over that. 

 

Does that have anything to do with complaining about Konami's performance now?  Because we're giving you legitimate feedback and you're going to ignore it because you don't like who its coming from, you honestly deserve what's coming to you if CFV destroys your home market, ruins the cashflow that keeps KDE-JP paying overheads like card design and a lot of the graphics, and the US can sit and knows they've helped out by becoming a byword for dishonest and unethical tournament managment.  

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+Urthor    10208

Earl you've just got your head up your ass and are waffling.  Nobody's arguing over tournament policy or whether Konami can or can't do this, you're arguing pedantics when everyone else made the basic brain connection that Konami can do whatever they want at their own events.  If they're going to tell people at registration who've paid hundreds of dollars for flights and accomodation no sorry you're banned and not allowed to attend the event, they deserve it for being disorganised assholes and breaking the implicit promise they make to everyone who ever deals with Konami "we're not a bunch of complete dicks."

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»Pharaoh Atem    15768

Yeah it's not 2009, people have given up on publicly advocating stacking the 12 y/o r2 LS player because he's a fuckwit playing LS ready to suicide ppl who are actually trying out of the tournament.  That died when people realised that trying to fix a broken card game by cheating when there's basically no prizes to win is just dumb.  Not that it doesn't happen and almost everyone you meet playing YGO has done it at one time or another and probably still do, but we're over that. 

 

Does that have anything to do with complaining about Konami's performance now?  Because we're giving you legitimate feedback and you're going to ignore it because you don't like who its coming from, you honestly deserve what's coming to you if CFV destroys your home market, ruins the cashflow that keeps KDE-JP paying overheads like card design and a lot of the graphics, and the US can sit and knows they've helped out by becoming a byword for dishonest and unethical tournament managment.  

That's not testimony, kiddo.

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»Pharaoh Atem    15768

Earl you've just got your head up your ass and are waffling.  Nobody's arguing over tournament policy or whether Konami can or can't do this, you're arguing pedantics when everyone else made the basic brain connection that Konami can do whatever they want at their own events.  If they're going to tell people at registration who've paid hundreds of dollars for flights and accomodation no sorry you're banned and not allowed to attend the event, they deserve it for being disorganised assholes and breaking the implicit promise they make to everyone who ever deals with Konami "we're not a bunch of complete dicks."

 
My entire point is that people who cheat at this game and pay hundreds of dollars for accomodations are not people we should give a shit about - remember, they cheated. Any reason we have to be sad about them wasting their money like a fool DIES at that point.
 
The only reason to hate on Konami for telling someone "you're banned, go away" would be if they did it to someone who didn't deserve it: and I'm not seeing evidence of that show up here. That's why I keep asking for detailed testimony: show me something fucking substantial, man, and we'll bust shit wide open.
 
It is not disorganized to tell players "it's your responsibility to know if you're allowed at an event or not" and then actually not be surprised when someone who got suspended and didn't fucking check decides to show up. If you get suspended, Konami tells you so: but then it's your job to go to the Suspended Player List if you forget when your suspension is done.
 
NEWS FLASH: if you get a penalty worth giving a fuck about, there is potential for a ban. If you get UC-Cheating, you may be banned. If you get UC-Severe, you may be banned. This is not rocket science.
 
 
 
I really think that people not knowing that they got banned is kinda born from the same stupid problems that make people think they don't need to read Tournament Policy
 
It's really because of how policy says "certain parts of this shit are your responsibility and your responsibility alone" that players don't get much wiggle room in this
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»Pharaoh Atem    15768
url=http://i.imgur.com/qKaigti.png

Players who are reviewed by the Penalty Committee are invariably notified of the findings, including if they are suspended.

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Alistar    4223

 

 

 

Why is Jerry banned again and why is steve banned?

 

Jerry got banned for the same thing Alistar did I think.  And which Steve?

 

Being the realist nigga in the game?

 

While this is true, could someone spell it out for me?  Fading memory + uncertainty about my sources leaves me unable to tease apart fact from fiction with these two.  With Alistar it's: he was selling cards and he had a trouble with the law outside of Yugioh?  And Jerry?

jerry and alistar got pulled over at ycs rhode island or something and both were arrested for something (2 different things if i remember correctly, alistar had like a bunch of cell phones or something idr what jerrys story was). they were both let off, but not in konami's eyes. guilty until proven innocent

 

this is the most accurate retelling i've ever seen.  only thing wrong is that we weren't at a YCS at all. we were 2,000 miles away from YCS miami at the time lol.

 

jerry's is 6 years because they had already banned him right before miami, then this happened so they sent him another email banning him a second time for another 3 years

 

edit: the first ban email does not give a reason for him being banned at all, and he wasn't DQd or talked to at any prior events, so that one's still a huge mystery lol

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»Pharaoh Atem    15768
Aye, that sounds about right. Trouble with the authorities is something Konami has the right to deem someone a problem over, and Konami's interests are in promoting a play environment where the players are beyond reproach.

Technically, if Konami wanted, they could decide they didn't want me as a judge because of the stuff that'd happened to me.

I don't see how this is new to some folks.
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+mmf    23487

yeah when i started committing crime on the reg i had to stop going to yugioh tournaments i dont fuck with the feds

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JWill    52
Yea I was being investigated by the DEA APPARENTLY lol somehow Konami has the privileged information . They literally made up a story to banned me.

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+mmf    23487

free alistar free jerry 2014

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burn_em88    306

The only reason to hate on Konami for telling someone "you're banned, go away" would be if they did it to someone who didn't deserve it: and I'm not seeing evidence of that show up here. That's why I keep asking for detailed testimony: show me something fucking substantial, man, and we'll bust shit wide open.

Lukas Randegger was banned for losing a match and 2/9 of the spectators thought he won the match. They brought it up to the HJ the next round, asking why the opponent was at table 1 when he "had just lost." The other 7/9 spectators said that was just the game he had won, but the match continued and Lukas ended up losing. But 2 people outweighs the other 7 and both competitors in Konami's eyes. I guess Lukas was too good, and the HJ just couldn't believe he could lose, and concluded that a bribe must have occurred. The 7 witnesses all wrote sworn statements of what happened, but Lukas is now banned for it. Seems pretty unfair in my eyes. What stops people from just finding a player that they don't like, and claiming a bribe took place? If Konami only chooses to listen to the side they want to hear, the floodgates of wrongful bans will remain wide open.

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»John Danker    945

 

 

 

 

"Konami gives people a 2nd chance, Konami cares, stop whining" is an awful argument to tell us to get off its case after people get banned for incredibly dubious reasons after multiple consecutive deck checks specifically targeting them.   Acting like the fact you're all nice guys doesn't allow you to escape criticism for your mistakes, and if we're wrong because you haven't told us all the details that's as much your fault as ours.

You DO realize that "Targeting" a player and it taking multiple deck checks to supposedly have a conspiracy against him and set him up for cheating is pretty darn silly don't you? If there was actually a conspiracy and judges were trying to set someone up, do you honestly think it would take them MULTIPLE deck checks to do so? Heck, if a judge were going to be THAT much of a scumbag they could certainly do so in the first deck check.

Judges are never to discuss details of any penalty given at events with players other than the player assigned the penalty, doing so would be unprofessional. Penalties not assigned you are none of your business and penalties a judge was not involved in are none of his / her business.

 

As always, I'm not here to debate these issues, I'm here to inform you.

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»Pharaoh Atem    15768

The only reason to hate on Konami for telling someone "you're banned, go away" would be if they did it to someone who didn't deserve it: and I'm not seeing evidence of that show up here. That's why I keep asking for detailed testimony: show me something fucking substantial, man, and we'll bust shit wide open.

Lukas Randegger was banned for losing a match and 2/9 of the spectators thought he won the match. They brought it up to the HJ the next round, asking why the opponent was at table 1 when he "had just lost." The other 7/9 spectators said that was just the game he had won, but the match continued and Lukas ended up losing. But 2 people outweighs the other 7 and both competitors in Konami's eyes. I guess Lukas was too good, and the HJ just couldn't believe he could lose, and concluded that a bribe must have occurred. The 7 witnesses all wrote sworn statements of what happened, but Lukas is now banned for it. Seems pretty unfair in my eyes. What stops people from just finding a player that they don't like, and claiming a bribe took place? If Konami only chooses to listen to the side they want to hear, the floodgates of wrongful bans will remain wide open.


You do realize that not all testimonies are equal, right?

If the 2 people give full accounts of what occurred, and those accounts are consistent with themselves and each other, and the other 7 give me something that boils to a bunch of scribbles in comparison, the 2 are obviously going to look like they paid better attention and had a finer grasp of the situation.

 

Part of being a judge, including part of being an HJ, is judging and making educated guesses in he-said-she-said situations. The fact is that lying is against policy, and the moment two players enter a he-said-she-said situation, someone is either forgetful as fuck, or lying. And lying is honestly going to get one eviscerated.

 

 


You don't have a good case for "KONAMI cheated Lukas" here. Not yet. Give me more info. And this time, keep it fucking useful.

To make it easier, I've struck through all the useless parts of the above post. I'm not here to listen to people soapbox: it's not mature to soapbox when one doesn't have a relatively airtight case, and you need to assume a LOT of shit went wrong to claim that Lukas was maliciously mishandled.

 

Part of my role here on DG is in, frankly, being older than a lot of you and a good deal more composed about shit.

 

Have any of you ever watched the show Dragnet?

 

Because I'm able to be composed, all I want are the facts, not assumptions and extrapolations.

 

 

 

Investigative neutrality is essential in shit like this, and that's why I can understand how scary the idea of Konami being crooked is. The fact of the matter is that we don't have anything conclusive, so a composed man will not act like we do have conclusive stuff.

Konami reserves the right to allow its judges to make educated judgments about who is and isn't telling the truth in a situation. This is not a way for them to institutionalize crooked behavior, but an admission that player testimonies are NOT going to be consistent and an admission that it is impossible to provide perfect and constant visual and audial surveillance of every game at every table while still providing the event atmosphere Konami wants to provide.

If a judge gets the question of "who is telling the truth here" wrong, and there was no damn way for him to actually KNOW who was telling the truth, it is not reasonable to fault the judge. If anyone merits fault, it'd be the liar who got you into that mess.

If nothing else, this is why video surveillance might be something worth asking for.

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»Pharaoh Atem    15768

 

 

 

 

 

"Konami gives people a 2nd chance, Konami cares, stop whining" is an awful argument to tell us to get off its case after people get banned for incredibly dubious reasons after multiple consecutive deck checks specifically targeting them.   Acting like the fact you're all nice guys doesn't allow you to escape criticism for your mistakes, and if we're wrong because you haven't told us all the details that's as much your fault as ours.

You DO realize that "Targeting" a player and it taking multiple deck checks to supposedly have a conspiracy against him and set him up for cheating is pretty darn silly don't you? If there was actually a conspiracy and judges were trying to set someone up, do you honestly think it would take them MULTIPLE deck checks to do so? Heck, if a judge were going to be THAT much of a scumbag they could certainly do so in the first deck check.

Judges are never to discuss details of any penalty given at events with players other than the player assigned the penalty, doing so would be unprofessional. Penalties not assigned you are none of your business and penalties a judge was not involved in are none of his / her business.

 

As always, I'm not here to debate these issues, I'm here to inform you.

 

Information is not the panacea here: information cures ignorance, not fear.

 

Fear CAN be born of ignorance, but this fear isn't.

 

John, you underestimate how informed the DG population is. Remember, these are my men. They aren't allowed to be completely ignorant of everything, and they're pushed hard to learn everything.

 

The problem here is not a lack of information, but a lack of trust. And your comments do NOT assuage the lack of trust.

 

 

 

Remember, we're dealing with a site that may even distrust ME because I'm a judge now, despite my years of serving the site. 

 

You have to attack the fear, you have to attack the REAL problem here. Couching it as a matter of people being ignorant is ultimately akin to a red herring.

 

I know DG better than you do, John, so I advise you try a different approach, one that says "I know this is a concern, but here's why things are the way they are".

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+mmf    23487

You DO realize that "Targeting" a player and it taking multiple deck checks to supposedly have a conspiracy against him and set him up for cheating is pretty darn silly don't you? If there was actually a conspiracy and judges were trying to set someone up, do you honestly think it would take them MULTIPLE deck checks to do so? 

how many times have you heard this from cheaters? 'if i wanted to cheat why would i mark that card'

its just as bad an argument on the other side

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Kyary    2424

Didn't we already have this thread back in October when I made it following the issues from San Mateo?  However suspensions are handled are really odd in my eyes and will still continue to be, mostly because of the clashing things I hear from those involved.  I'm not going to bother anymore, there's a reason why I'm taking a hiatus from the game.

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