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»Pharaoh Atem    15768
Yes, and remember, the original statements the players made didn't phrase B's statement as a question.

The idea that it is a question is Coldsnap's BELIEF, not a matter of fact. If it were such, he's competent enough to write it as one. He has not said "this IS how it was", he said "this is how I see it." An expression of belief is not a claim of fact, and if you can't differentiate between the two, you aren't paying enough bloody attention.

As a judge, you need to sit back and do as I did - approach it and solve it from the stance of it being a question and it not being one. I already gave you what to consider in the event that it is a question, and you ignored that too.

When I say you're being naive about this, I don't mean it jokingly or lightly.

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Dont Forget    609
I've asked you twice now to explain to me how you came to the conclusion player B is waiting until the end phase and you've ignored it twice. I think at this point it is just a fear of being wrong in public and you are arguing just to save face. The only other alternative is you are actually just stupid. Whether it is a question or a statement isn't even relevant. If my opponent attempts to end main phase 1 and go to end phase I can say no and then say not attacking as a statement but the main phase will still continue until I've agreed to end it. I am saying that he is doing this in main phase 1 because his wording directly implies that and the fact that if there are 2 scenarios with the exact same outcome and 1 is cheating and 1 isn't I assume the player will do the one that will not get them dqed. You are assuming that in the same situation with 2 scenarios having the same exact outcome in the game that the player will choose the one with the risk of dq instead of the 100% legal one and that the player doesn't know how to talk. Please tell me how you are more right than I am?

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Dont Forget    609
Scenario 1 - Player B asks/states in main phase before agreeing to move onto the end phase
Results - Player A attacks if he so chooses which allows Player B to drop Gorz. Player B has no broken no rules

Scenario 2 - Player B asks/states in the end phase
Results - Player B is definitely cheating and opens himself up to the possibility of a dq and even a suspension.

The upside to Player B is the exact same in either scenario. The downside? Not so much.

Ignoring the fact that his wording already says it is scenario 1 since I'm not completely sold on your ability to understand what you read, how can you seriously think scenario 2 is even close as likely as scenario 1? If you could risk $0(no risk) to win $10 (some gain) or $1000 (risk) to win that same $10 (some gain) which would you choose? I think 100% of the population would choose option 1. If you disagree I'd be happy to make some bets with you? Or even anyone you know of that thinks like you do.

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+Urthor    10208

I've asked you twice now to explain to me how you came to the conclusion player B is waiting until the end phase and you've ignored it twice. I think at this point it is just a fear of being wrong in public and you are arguing just to save face. The only other alternative is you are actually just stupid. Whether it is a question or a statement isn't even relevant. If my opponent attempts to end main phase 1 and go to end phase I can say no and then say not attacking as a statement but the main phase will still continue until I've agreed to end it. I am saying that he is doing this in main phase 1 because his wording directly implies that and the fact that if there are 2 scenarios with the exact same outcome and 1 is cheating and 1 isn't I assume the player will do the one that will not get them dqed. You are assuming that in the same situation with 2 scenarios having the same exact outcome in the game that the player will choose the one with the risk of dq instead of the 100% legal one and that the player doesn't know how to talk. Please tell me how you are more right than I am?

 

Player a said "ready" to move to the next phase

 

 

Player b can't say "wait go back to attack declaration" because player a has directly said he wants to ernd the phase.  Player b can either chain a card once player a has said the phase is ending, in which case the gamestate goes back, or he can do nothing, and the phase moves on, but he can't do nothing, then move the phase back to attack declaration.

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Dont Forget    609
Double passing doesn't automatically progress the game forward. If player A says I want to end main phase and player B says no it is in main phase still even if player B doesn't perform an action and player A is free to continue from that point or attempt to end main phase again. If he did this repeatedly it would be a penalty but doing it here is justifiable.

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If double passing does not progress the game forward, then what would be the point of asking to pass to end phase? If you could just say after your opponent tries to pass to end phase that you want to stay in main phase to do other stuff. I think I know where you got the interpretation of that official ruling from "If the game state is open, and the turn player chooses not to do anything, and the opponent waives the chance to activate a fast effect, and both players agree to have the turn proceed, then you move to the next Phase or Step", but passing is in itself agreeing to have the turn proceed.

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+Urthor    10208

Double passing doesn't automatically progress the game forward. If player A says I want to end main phase and player B says no it is in main phase still even if player B doesn't perform an action and player A is free to continue from that point or attempt to end main phase again. If he did this repeatedly it would be a penalty but doing it here is justifiable.

 

that actually just isn't true but

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»Pharaoh Atem    15768
guys, you should be clearer: both players passing in a closed gamestate is different from both doing it in an open one.

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Dont Forget    609
Ok so if you are in main phase 1 and both players don't want to activate an effect at that time where are you in the turn now? Battle phase? What if turn player doesn't want a battle phase? End phase? What if non turn player wants to play something in main phase 1 if they knew you didn't plan on having a battle phase? Double passing is not a replacement for both players agreeing to end the current phase and begin the next 1. I think that both players have to clearly agree on ending the phase and lack of action cannot be taken as an agreement if that is not their intent.

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+Urthor    10208

Mitch

 

  • Player A says:  I want to end MP1
  • Player B can't say "no the gamestate goes back to being open"
  • Player B has the opportunity to say "stop I want to use a quick effect," he doesn't have the opportunity to turn the gamestate back to being open
  • If player B uses a quick effect, the gamestate will eventualyl go back to being open
  • If he doesn't, the next phase comes, but Player B can't make the gamestate open again

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Dont Forget    609
http://www.yugioh-card.com/en/gameplay/fasteffects_timing.html

I'm so glad I found this. After turn player attempts to end main phase it places you in box E. Follow the flow chart from there. It is actually just undeniable from this that you are wrong here. Which also conclusively proves that player B in the op did absolutely nothing wrong. Solves 2 discussions with 1 link how useful.
  • Upvote 6

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Brandon Wigley    3438

Mitch

 

  • Player A says:  I want to end MP1
  • Player B can't say "no the gamestate goes back to being open"
  • Player B has the opportunity to say "stop I want to use a quick effect," he doesn't have the opportunity to turn the gamestate back to being open
  • If player B uses a quick effect, the gamestate will eventualyl go back to being open
  • If he doesn't, the next phase comes, but Player B can't make the gamestate open again

Do you just sit at home and make this stuff up as you go?

  • Upvote 2

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»Pharaoh Atem    15768

http://www.yugioh-card.com/en/gameplay/fasteffects_timing.html

I'm so glad I found this. After turn player attempts to end main phase it places you in box E. Follow the flow chart from there. It is actually just undeniable from this that you are wrong here. Which also conclusively proves that player B in the op did absolutely nothing wrong. Solves 2 discussions with 1 link how useful.

 

turns out that the chart has a flaw in the sense that no, you can't just refuse to proceed after passing for no reason: that's where policy comes in and baps you for slow play, unless you did it intentionally to waste time, at which point it's a DQ.

 

Seriously, you don't have any thing you can use here. You just found that chart: I've internalized the fucker, including its faults.

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»Pharaoh Atem    15768

Mitch

 

  • Player A says:  I want to end MP1
  • Player B can't say "no the gamestate goes back to being open"
  • Player B has the opportunity to say "stop I want to use a quick effect," he doesn't have the opportunity to turn the gamestate back to being open
  • If player B uses a quick effect, the gamestate will eventualyl go back to being open
  • If he doesn't, the next phase comes, but Player B can't make the gamestate open again

 

close, what A said boils to "I want to end whatever phase this is, and go to my next one and end that, all the way up until the EP since I can't end the turn outright this way"

 

B isn't saying "the gamestate goes back to being open" when he says "you're not attacking" - it's already fuckin' open, you can't motion to end any phase, step, or turn unless the gamestate already is open.

 

if A says "I want to end", and B doesn't actually motion to stop him, then he's fuckin' ended it: this is less about that chart and more about the fact that A has verbally committed to a specific action and CANNOT revoke that commitment.

 

B didn't want to do shit when A said he wanted to end whatever was going on. That's the only means by which a player can justify stopping legal phase and turn progression: you need to have something you want to do at that moment, and he DIDN'T. Clarification doesn't do SHIT to knock you back to an open gamestate. So, the idea of player B asking a question somehow making it possible to attack again is itself one that shows a lack of understanding. All asking the question does is leave you parked in the box where player B has to say "yes we proceed" or "no we don't", and he can't say "no" for no reason.

 

 

I get you're trying to help but there're some rough spots that'll even trick you

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»Pharaoh Atem    15768

Another example of why that chart is flawed is more or less because that chart, on its own, gives players license to never really end a turn in the first place. That's why the "you aren't stopping progress" point is so important: the chart doesn't say you need to have a good damn reason to say "I don't wanna move on", but that doesn't mean it isn't so.

 

That chart is all you need to play YGO: but not all you need to govern it.

 

 

 

Mitch, I've given you all the right information. If you don't trust me at this point, I'll go check with my superiors. But expecting an overturn is foolish: people fought me about shortcuts and damage calc in that other thread, and they lost there too. 

 

There is a LOT of shit you all don't bother to learn, and I've bothered to learn it for the exact purpose of covering your backs. So let me cover them, god damn it, and don't fight me just because I'm doing that. If you'll listen like a sane man ought, you'll actually be helped by this shit. I'm on your side, you stupid motherfuckers, so respect the fact that a friend is trying to smack you upside the head with some sense.

 

YGO's rules are NOT pretty, but that doesn't mean that you get to pretend that they are. I don't tolerate folks lying to themselves about something as... small as this, when you all could just be better served by giving into the truth and learning to adapt to it.

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Dont Forget    609
No one lost in the shortcuts scenario. Sorry but saying "I talked to someone on Danker's level" is not proof at all. I've known John since 2003 as he goes to the same locals as I do and I'm 99% sure how he would answer that question. The way you think just leads to potential abuse and until someone that actually matters says you are right you aren't. If you want to use people as sources then give their names. Statements like that are actually just useless. I don't understand how you can say the chart is wrong here. They very consciously added that box that serves no other purpose besides allowing for situations like this. If it didn't require player agreement then that box serves literally 0 purpose.

Saying you want to end main phase 1 puts you in box E it does nothing else. There are also other ways to get there however. Say I summon a Crimson Blader while my opponent has a Tidal on the field. Now after this I've returned to an open gamestate and I can pass on activating an effect putting us where? Box E. What if my opponent doesn't use anything at this time am I free to go to battle phase to play around Veiler? No I'm not. Saying you want to end your main phase doesn't magically introduce a new box to this chart it follows the path already built in for the purpose. You can have situations where Player A says "I want to move to battle phase" and Player B responds with "I don't want to I'm considering a response." After that conversation takes place Player B could decide they don't want to activate anything but Player A is still legally able to continue in main phase because the game state returned to open the moment Player B said no to advancing. Saying no to advancing the game constantly would of course be penalized but when you have a valid reason for it you can prevent the progression.

Also fighting people in discussions like this is the only thing that ever leads to conclusive answers (although not often). Unless you are 1000000% sure you are correct you should encourage it not tell people to stop. If there is any amount of doubt at all then only good can come from it. And don't assume I don't learn things on my own. Unlike most of DGZ I actually do try and learn how the game works and all the mechanics behind it.

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»Pharaoh Atem    15768

Saying you want to end main phase 1 puts you in box E it does nothing else. There are also other ways to get there however. Say I summon a Crimson Blader while my opponent has a Tidal on the field. Now after this I've returned to an open gamestate and I can pass on activating an effect putting us where? Box E. What if my opponent doesn't use anything at this time am I free to go to battle phase to play around Veiler? No I'm not. Saying you want to end your main phase doesn't magically introduce a new box to this chart it follows the path already built in for the purpose. You can have situations where Player A says "I want to move to battle phase" and Player B responds with "I don't want to I'm considering a response." After that conversation takes place Player B could decide they don't want to activate anything but Player A is still legally able to continue in main phase because the game state returned to open the moment Player B said no to advancing. Saying no to advancing the game constantly would of course be penalized but when you have a valid reason for it you can prevent the progression.


This is false. Gesturing to end a phase/step puts you in box E, sure, but saying "I'm considering a response" is not "we leave Box E and go back to an open gamestate". the ONLY box with an open gamestate is Box A, and that box is TURN PLAYER ACTIONS ONLY, my friend. The opponent considering his right to act in various ways MEANS that the opponent HAS the goddamn right to act AT ALL, and that means we're still in goddamn Box E.

Honestly, the Box below Box E exists not for giving people a right to refuse moving along for no reason, but as the catch by which we become unable to leave a phase w/o handling mandatory shit for that phase. That box is why you can't end the EP w/o Veiler being dealt with: players aren't allowed to agree to end a phase when ending it would be illegal.

That said, in this case, ending it is entirely legal: you are STILL presuming that asking a question or making a statement means "no, I've decided we're not ending the phase" when it means NOTHING of the sort

Hell, if a question were asked, it'd be seen as a means of clarifying, like you said: clarifying efforts are not answers to the yes/no question at hand

nothing B said works as a "no, you may not proceed" answer - the statement B made IGNORES what the game needs to stop the procession.

If ending it is legal, and A makes an effort to, and B isn't stopping it, it ends. That's it. And B did not fucking stop it in this case. "you aren't attacking", either as a question or as a statement, is not explicit permission or denial.

And when shortcuts are in place, explicit permission is often not required for progress. Player B might as well have been silent: the only thing that serves as a "no" in shortcut land is an actual "no" unless the game says "stop here, you idiots, there's some mandatory business which must be dealt with."





I am going to, by hell or high water, make you all realize exactly how fucking easy it is for shortcuts to fuck you all over. I don't care how long it takes. And frankly, shortcuts more or less tell the chart to fuck right off, which is why they're so foolish and dangerous.

And of course I'm certain I'm correct. The ONLY thing that can save you here is an exception being granted through the spirit of the law trumping the letter of the law.

The fact of the matter is that you don't have the right to presume that the Gorz drop is an innocent event, not in light of how many fuckups precede it. And you don't have the right to presume that because I don't have the right to presume it, and I'm the goddamn investigator of the gamestate here. If I can't presume something, no one can sensibly do so.

You conflate "I consider an action" with "you may not proceed and you must return to an open gamestate." That is where your case falls apart: "don't proceed yet" is what "I'm thinking" means - not "your effort to proceed completely fails since I say you may not."

It is precisely because one can't refuse progression for no reason that going back to a point where one could attack is not possible. We're beyond the battle step.



And as I've said, one can't refuse progression for no reason because it wastes time.

the alternative is "turn player passes and we go to box E", "opponent passes in box E and we descend below it", "in the box below, one of the players decides we don't end the phase," and time was removed from the clock for no reason except to shave it off - which is NOT tolerated. Players have been suspended for clock manipulation, and watching for it is part of our goddamn duty.

If players recognize "something mandatory is unfinished" after both players pass, then someone can say "uh, yeah, we have to go back." This is no such case. no unfinished mandatory shit is anchoring us to the battle step, and B didn't say "let's not end it".


People need to realize that when they pass before they should, that's a misplay, and they will lose out on things for it. There is no right to appeal to the opponent in an effort to fix one's own misplays.

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»Pharaoh Atem    15768

If it didn't require player agreement then that box serves literally 0 purpose.


I can see why you'd think that, but this structure is necessary for the game to check on mandatory bullshit w/o denying players the right to pass the right to act back and forth before the mandatory check enforces its "you can't end the phase" dealie.

If we omitted that box, there'd be no explicit place for that check, but it would have to go on anyway (and then shit gets stupid).

That box's role in the EP is the same as its role elsewhere, we just deal with it in the EP more often than anywhere else. And in the EP, you'll see people talk about being required to act whenever that box gets in the way of progress. That holds here too, but it is honestly the only reason we have it, because any other use essentially boils to abuse of the clock.

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Dont Forget    609
It doesn't need a spirit of the law exception when the rules actually clearly state that player B is allowed to stop advancing past the main phase whether he activates an effect or not. That box could be something like "Do either players have mandatory effects to resolve" but it isn't. And the reason why is fairly clear and whatever you say does not matter more than what Konami themselves say sorry.

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speaking as somebody who LOVES watching arguments, I thank you both for this. IMO Don't Forget is technically correct as per the chart, however Atem makes the valid point that the chart does not cover all situations and so the chart is invalid evidence. Spirit of the law seems to me a bit of a misnomer, as on the deepest level of technicality the chart is konami->we are ruled by konami->obey the konami. However, Atem is IMO correct while in a way himself forming a spirit of the law argument.

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Marokeas    0

Very interesting read. I have a question, though.

 

When the turn player decides he wants to end the current phase and the players enter Box E does he have to tell his opponent what phase he wants to go to after the main phase? Or does that not happen til the "end of phase" box? From my understanding you are allowed to skip the battle phase and main phase 2 entirely, right?

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»Pharaoh Atem    15768
No one has spoken up about it and no rule stipulates you must say which phase is next for you, so it depends on what your event's HJ feels is fairest, and that answer only holds for that event.

For an answer that would be enforceable in a broader sense than "for one event" only, we would need to ask it of R&D: Julia herself, manager of all NA judges, has refused to weigh in on this, and if the judge manager doesn't weigh in on something, it would be beyond strange for any judge to weigh in.

the only reason your event's HJ has say during an event is because events NEED answers even where no actual answers exist.

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+mmf    23487

man yugioh is the only game where the company in charge will straight up refuse to tell you how a game mechanic works

  • Upvote 2

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»John Danker    945

Investigate using any and all available resources, ask clarifying questions, ensure you understand the entire game state and what lead to it.

Intent has a great deal to do with any infraction, the severity of any penalty is based on intent and sometimes intent determines whether there was any infraction at all.

Understand the very definition of UC-Cheating, is:
1. Intentional act
2. An attempt to gain an unfair advantage.
3. Knowledge that the act was illegal (depending on the scenario)

Inexperienced judges (or those who have never judged) will try and boil scenarios down to a purely mechanical form, rarely are such scenarios ruled upon correctly without considering much more, in fact, you can't possible rule upon such a scenario without deciding upon intent.

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