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harig07    2058

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np9ol5N_c3U[/media]

 

 

3 Cardcar D

3 Flamvell Guard

1 Dragunity Corsesca

1 Debris Dragon

1 Mythic Water Dragon

1 Mythic Tree Dragon

1 Blaster, Dragon Ruler of Infernos

1 Tempest, Dragon Ruler of Storms

1 Tidal, Dragon Ruler of Waterfalls

1 Redox, Dragon Ruler of Boulders

1 Thunder King Rai-Oh

15

 

3 Dragon Shrine

3 Mystical Space Typhoon

3 Upstart Goblin

2 Forbidden Lance

2 Cards of Consonance

1 Book of Moon

1 Gold Sarcophagus

1 Dark Hole

1 Burial From a Different Dimension

17

 

2 Skill Drain

2 Dimensional Prison

1 Solemn Warning

1 Torrential Tribute

1 Bottomless Trap Hole

1 Dust Tornado

8

 

1 Armory Arm

1 Orient Dragon

1 Black Rose Dragon

1 Colossal Fighter

1 Crimson Blader

1 Scrap Dragon

1 Stardust Dragon

1 Thought Ruler Archfiend

1 Giganticastle

1 Star Eater

2 Mecha Phantom Beast Dracossack

1 Gaia Dragon the Thunder Charger

1 Number 11: Big Eye

1 Divine Dragon Knight Felgrand

15

 

1 D.D. Crow

2 Fencing Fire Ferret

3 Maxx "C"

2 Rainbow Kuriboh

1 Closed Forest

1 Twister

1 Dust Tornado

1 Mistake

2 Overworked

1 Skill Drain

15

 

This is the deck that a friend and I have been building since the list came out. I basically saw the list, thought that Dragons were still legit and at that point decided to stick with them. I tested Hieratics and Mythics very early on and didn't like either of them, so we started out with an aggressive Plant build using the Chaos Tengus. It was good, but drawing the Chaos Tengus in multiples sucked so we dropped them. The night before YCS Berlin I still had the Plant engine (2 Lonefire, 1 Spore, 1 Dandylion) in my main and realised why that structure was suboptimal to the Consonance build, but I'd pre-registered so it was too late. I'm certain the changes would have helped me in the tournament, but alas oh well.

 

The deck has served me really well over the past couple of months. You basically put out a beater (generally Stardust, Sack or Felgrand) and grind it out with backrows. Skill Drain + Stardust batters most match-ups, notably Fire Fist and Geargia. I built the deck with most of my testing revolving around Fire Fist, Geargia and Mermail - the deck has a very good match-up against the first two, but a 40/60ish match-up for Mermail. Unfortunately I didn't play any of these decks, and I drew bricky hands (which Consonance would have helped with), which sucked. You have a good match-up against the mirror (Hieratics) and Prophecy, as long as they both don't have the jizz.

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X88B8    72

What does this deck give you that Hieratic Rulers doesn't?

 

I'm not trying to be an asshole, it's a serious question. I just feel like seal from the ashes is the only thing keeping dragons in the game as a dedicated deck at this point.

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Alhaji    50
I agree with Equestria; why not Hieratic Rulers? Are they outside budget range, or do you just adore skill drain?
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Predibus    42

tried 5-6 games with it, awesome deck :D 

 

only change i made was a Duality instead of Dust, also id add a pair of rank fours in the extra as theres alot of other stuff i would never summon while Debris into Tree might happen.

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herbie ✌    1340
No Queen Dragon or Exciton?

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harig07    2058

No Queen Dragon or Exciton?

 

If I was to run a Rank 4 it would be 101 as I feel it is the best on its own. I considered running a Rank 4 before the YCS but the Extra was a lot tighter then. I'd probably make room for a Rank 4 now. I played Dragun Djinn really early on and found it to be okay, but that was with a completely different structure so this one might prove more fruitful. Exciton was the card I wanted to run most for most of this format but I found the situations where I would prefer it over another option (Debris makes many things) to be somewhat minimal, although having a field nuke is obviously amazing.

 

tried 5-6 games with it, awesome deck :D

 

only change i made was a Duality instead of Dust, also id add a pair of rank fours in the extra as theres alot of other stuff i would never summon while Debris into Tree might happen.

 

Glad you like it :) Duality is something that I've considered but haven't tested extensively, so I'll give it a try. I ran Dust because I was expecting a lot of Fire Fist, where Dust is awesome, plus I kept siding in two anyway so it freed up side deck space to main the 1 of.

 

What does this deck give you that Hieratic Rulers doesn't?

 

I'm not trying to be an asshole, it's a serious question. I just feel like seal from the ashes is the only thing keeping dragons in the game as a dedicated deck at this point.

 

 

I agree with Equestria; why not Hieratic Rulers? Are they outside budget range, or do you just adore skill drain?

 

Hieratic was too gung-ho in its nature. If you strip the Hieratic core apart on its own the deck itself is not that strong (same old Hieratics essentially in that it's either all in or bust). Having access to Rulers mitigates this in some respect but I didn't feel that it was significant enough to make up for the Hieratic core's shortcomings. The Pure build's core is very concise, allowing more room to run either defensive cards or dig power. I felt that such an approach would be more consistent and pandered more to my individual preferences.

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»victor    6400

What does this deck give you that Hieratic Rulers doesn't?

 

I'm not trying to be an asshole, it's a serious question. I just feel like seal from the ashes is the only thing keeping dragons in the game as a dedicated deck at this point.

 

This is incorrect.

 

I am of the opinion that the better players (now) realize that Ashes is a "bad" card. 

 

It's basically a card, if you want to use Hoban's term for it, that "goes against the fundamentals of Yugioh"

 

Hoban analogizes having to play multiple copies of Spellbooks (which are once per turn). There's a fundamental dichotomy here. If a card is once per turn, you want to play fewer copies of it, yet most SBs are maxed out.

 

The parallel with Ashes is that goes against the point of Hieratics. In Hieratics you want Hieratics in hand, you want to draw your 3 Hieratic hand. By filtering your deck of Hieratics, you making your Hieratic core weaker.

 

Sure, it seems to work, but the fundamental theory behind it is flawed (indicating that a search for better engines is in order).

 

----------

 

And it's not just me who feels this way:

 

Here is Chris LeBlanc, top 32ing, but saying almost the exact same thing (see video at 3:10).

 

-------------------------------

 

And here is Sharpman, explaining it well.

 

http://www.ygorganization.com/raccoondeck/


 

 

Part 1: A lesson in denial of results-oriented thinking, rejection of popular practice, and time management

A short backstory. My area only has Regionals twice a year, and I was unable to attend the first, so this was my shot at getting an invite to the NAWCQ. I started testing Hieratics about a month ago, and after talking with a couple friends I decided it was going to be the best pick, mainly because of the four Dragon Rulers. Testing on Dueling Network and with friends yielded a positive win ratio against the big decks, I lost one match at locals over three weeks, so why did I change decks?

From the moment the Hieratic Ruler became popular, Hieratic Seal of the Ashes jumped in price praised as the “next Dragon Ravine”. The card looked insane at first, giving you fuel to summon a Dragon Ruler every turn. But I had some serious problems with it, and these problems were magnified as testing continued.

1) This card was not a spell, and it did not give you access to Dragon Rulers on its own.

You had to set this card to get any value of it, and the cards you were sending to the Graveyard were not Dragon Rulers; they were Hieratics. These Hieratics were combo pieces of your deck. Every time you send one from the Deck to the Graveyard, you are decreasing the amount of combo pieces you have left in your Deck by putting them in your Graveyard, without getting any value from them first.

2) The Special Summon effect only happens if your opponent makes a mistake, you resolve a card that destroys it, or if your opponent wants you to Summon a monster.

I am sure every time you had Ashes set and your opponent throws a Mystical Space Typhoon into it you inwardly cheered, and proudly slammed your graved Hieratic onto the board as your opponent realizes their Typhoon turned into a threat in your favor. Most of the time, your opponents will not blindly throw their Typhoons into your face-downs. They will wait until it is a) necessary to use them or b) until they can respond to a Continuous Spell/Trap Card that is a threat.

The other option is you resolving a card that will destroy it: A Wingbeat of Giant Dragon and Scrap Dragon, or some lesser-played cards such as Double Cyclone. Scrap Dragon is legitimate, but this card only gives you an insane benefit when I resolve Wingbeat? Well, let me just count on one hand the amount of times I resolved a Wingbeat and did not win that game. I will also count the amount of times I actually resolved Wingbeat after drawing or activating it: that number was far below 50% I assure you, and was the reason I ended up cutting the card from my final list even though it was such a blowout.

When your opponent wants you to Summon a monster, they want to Crimson Blader you or they are using you controlling a monster to their advantage. They can MST your Ashes in the Battle Phase, force you to Summon a Hieratic, and then lock you out of your next turn.

3) The card provides no threat, does not put the opponent on a clock, and does not generate any advantage on its own

The only way this card does any of those things is as a supplement to the Dragon Rulers. This means that no matter what you do, this card is ALWAYS a part of a combo. Other cards are like this too, but Ashes has this problem on top of others. It could sit there the entire game, and your opponent would never have to worry about it except for dealing with the Dragon Rulers. You get advantage off the Rulers, but you are sitting at a negative in the first place because of Ashes.

4) This card does not help you deal with established fields

If I draw this card facing down a Tiger King, a known Wolfbark in hand, and a couple backrow, how am I supposed to use this card to tackle that field? You can’t. This is not a problem with just Ashes, but with several other cards in the deck.

—-

See all the problems I just had with Ashes? I could not understand why every list I saw that did well opted to play three copies of the card.

The deck was doing sort of well, but Fire Fists were more represented. It kept a presence at the events that went on during the couple weeks after the new format started, but I knew there was still something missing. This is what I am talking about, going against results oriented thinking – a couple of years ago, I would have said to myself “the deck is doing well at events, I’m winning my locals with it, I have a positive win ratio in testing, I am making the right choice with this deck”. But that is not the right way to think. You have to learn to pick up on trends, and notice inconsistencies within your own victories, as well as solve problems when you lose.

Trap Stun, Call of the Haunted, Reckless Greed, Hieratic Seal of the Ashes, Skill Drain, and so on. All of these are terrible cards to draw to established fields. Hieratics is a combo deck entirely, and you needed 2+ monsters to break fields. All of these cards are designed to fuel your monsters, but if you had too many of them you had that many less cards to work with for the turn. How would it feel to be staring down a strong opening yet be stuck at a -2 because you opened Seal and Reckless? Another problem is that every combo required 2 or more cards to go off, and could often be stymied by a single Trap Card. Yes, the Dragon Rulers could help you recover some of that lost advantage but that is a process that occurs with a +1 every turn (per Ruler), and your opponent will not often sit and wait for you to recover that lost advantage, both in board presence and raw cards.

The final problem with Hieratics was the difficulty in dealing with floodgate cards, and how dealing with them was counter productive to your own strategies. Ophion, Fossil Dyna, and Thunder King. All of these cards are huge problems because they prevent you from executing your plays or searching your cards. If you get rid of them, you eliminate 3 cards from your pool of available combo pieces: the 3 Tefnuit. That leaves you forced to draw a combination of Su and Eset to begin a push. The only way around that is using cards like Skill Drain, Forbidden Chalice, or Fiendish Chain. Fiendish and Drain have a similar problem to the above listed cards in that they don’t do well being drawn to established boards, because by that point you are on a clock and have to wait until next turn to be able to actively deal with the threat at hand. Even once negated, those threats still have bodies. Forbidden Chalice works instantly, but again does not deal with the monster itself, making you even more vulnerable to a single trap. Trap Stun requires you to wait a turn and Wingbeat does not resolve consistently enough for you to be able to rely on them to get around your opponent’s backrow. Then of course there was the Spell/Trap form of floodgates, which you only had a certain number of non searchable cards to counter. Otherwise, you were prevented from making a single play. It is not like the previous incarnations of Dragon Rulers where you could Blaster any problem card away fairly reliably.

This is what you need to do if you want to succeed. You need to carefully analyze every victory, loss, and card interaction. You cannot just assume that all the winning you are doing will continue once you sit down at whatever tournament you are practicing for. A little bit of results oriented thinking is okay: Hieratics had topped several events and I was winning with them, so I must be doing SOMETHING right. But do not get fooled. Despite this, I was able to pick apart the weaknesses, and ultimately determine this deck would not be able to keep up at whatever event I planned to attend.

So after coming to all these realizations, I decided to put the deck down. The problem? I had learned this all too late, I only had five days before the Regional. I had two options. Continue with Hieratics, and hope that I was able to bypass or fix all of these issues to get the victory, or look for a new strategy.

 

------------------

 

So as you can see, there is an emerging consensus that there needs to be better way out there to run Dragon Rulers for the deck to truly thrive. It's possible/probable that such an engine exists, all that is needed for somebody to find it, top with it.

 

Or alternatively, play Hieratics differently, without Hieratic Seal of the Ashes.

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Predibus    42

What was your record at the YCS btw?

Also i've been testing alot with it these days, running 2 Duality and 3 Consonance and cut Dark Hole, Burial and Dust.
Burial is huge but usually once you're able to use it you are already in a good position, most games you should be able to win if you get to late game.
2 Duality helps alot making slow hands faster and pretty often you sit behind either traps, a Guard/Debris or a Synchro/XYZ and don't need to special summon.
Consonance is soo good and even if it isn't playable it just puts you so far ahead once you can use it, you don't need to activate turn 1, and it's really easy to setup with Shrine.
drawing 2 is a lot with such a deck and putting 1 Dragon in the graveyard for free is amazing as the main problem i found while playing the deck is that sometimes you are not able to setup graveyard fast enough.
etting Guard is pretty good against Fire Fist but not that good against other decks so having more stuff to do with it is nice.

in the extra i'm also running a Catastor cause set Guard happens and you can synch it with Thunder King or Mythic Tree Dragon which sucks to draw sometimes.

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harig07    2058

I dropped at Round 7 having gone X-3. I played Madolche (lost), Spirits (lost), Frogs (won), Lightsworn (won), Gigavise (won), Constellar (won) and Bujin (lost). It was a very anomalous tournament - I drew at least one Flamvell Guard pretty much every game and had to just accept that my hands were bricked quite often, moreover I played against random stuff that I hadn't factored in my testing. It was disappointing considering that I know that the deck is better than my losses demonstrated, and I'm better than my record implied also, but that's life.

 

I like your ideas and I'll give them a try. Thanks for using the deck and providing feedback, it's much appreciated :)

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harig07    2058

Got Top 4 at a PS4 tournament with the following list:

 

FlSIsWj.png

 

3 Cardcar D

2 Flamvell Guard

1 Dragunity Corsesca

1 Debris Dragon

1 Mythic Water Dragon

1 Mythic Tree Dragon

1 Blaster, Dragon Ruler of Infernos

1 Tempest, Dragon Ruler of Storms

1 Tidal, Dragon Ruler of Waterfalls

1 Redox, Dragon Ruler of Boulders

1 Thunder King Rai-Oh

1 The White Stone of Legend

1 Blue-Eyes White Dragon

16

 

3 Dragon Shrine

3 Mystical Space Typhoon

3 Upstart Goblin

3 Cards of Consonance

2 Forbidden Lance

1 Book of Moon

1 Gold Sarcophagus

1 Trade-In

1 Burial From a Different Dimension

18

 

2 Skill Drain

1 Mirror Force

1 Solemn Warning

1 Torrential Tribute

1 Bottomless Trap Hole

6

 

1 Armory Arm

1 Orient Dragon

1 Black Rose Dragon

1 Colossal Fighter

1 Crimson Blader

1 Scrap Dragon

1 Stardust Dragon

1 Thought Ruler Archfiend

1 Star Eater

2 Mecha Phantom Beast Dracossack

1 Number 74: Master of Blades

1 Number 11: Big Eye

1 Divine Dragon Knight Felgrand

1 Number 101: Silent Honor Ark

15

 

2 Fencing Fire Ferret

1 Gorz the Emissary of Darkness

3 Maxx "C"

1 Rainbow Kuriboh

1 Closed Forest

1 Dust Tornado

1 Mistake

2 Overworked

1 Royal Decree

1 Skill Drain

1 Trap Stun

15

 

I wasn't intending to play this for the event but last minute circumstances forced me to use it. Overall I'm glad I did. The White engine was a last minute inclusion after seeing shaggypatriot's Dragunity list - I never saw White Stone, and Blue-Eyes was always dead for a couple of turns before I'd top Trade-In and orgasm. I lost in swiss to Mermail, beating Fire Fist; Lightsworn; Evilswarm; Infernity; and Evilswarm to get to Top 8, where I beat Bujin before losing to Fire Fist in time. I ran Master of Blades over Gaia because I couldn't get a Gaia. Honor Ark was really good (better than Exciton would have been). The Decree and Trap Stun were put in the side because there were 10000 Chain Burn players there, so the Decree never saw play.

 

I'd drop a Consonance for a Mirror Force or a Compulsory, in the Extra I'd swap Gaia for Blades, and in the side I'd take out Decree and Closed Forest for a Twister and a Trap Stun. Other than that I was very pleased with how it ran.

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