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Madolche - Discussion

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KidFlash    19
You are thinking very closed minded on the ratio of hoot. Because in all reality opening 2 is terrible no matter what way you spin it.

Also some of those lists are askew because you will see hands where you have spell striker in openeing without a viable spell to get to grave. Ever Nate ran bear knowing he needed t1 settup. Im saying use cardcars as your other t1 alongside tgs and spell striker which rota being upped to 2 was actually a giant push for this deck.
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gvez    1
I never said opening hoot was the end of the world, the point I'm trying to get across is that the most optimal opening for us is either mag or jelly. I don't feel that the rank 3 plays are the best choice moving forward anymore because getting rid of 1 backrow with like an alucard leaves us a lot more open to Shaddolls abusing their fusion spell the following turn. I think what makes madolches scary is the fact that we can not only otk, but grind as well. Backrow helps us gain advantage if timed properly and it can also enable us to get our combos through. Our defensive line should be veiler(maybe maxing out in main deck) and backrow. ROTA to 2 does help us out a lot, but I feel it should enable us to push harder instead of bait out backrow.

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Vincent210    510

You are thinking very closed minded on the ratio of hoot. Because in all reality opening 2 is terrible no matter what way you spin it.

Also some of those lists are askew because you will see hands where you have spell striker in openeing without a viable spell to get to grave. Ever Nate ran bear knowing he needed t1 settup. Im saying use cardcars as your other t1 alongside tgs and spell striker which rota being upped to 2 was actually a giant push for this deck.

 

I never said opening 2. That is indeed bad no matter how you spin it.

 

My point is opening him as a vanilla 1500 is terrible too. And 6 cards being the only OPTIMAL opening is actually worse news for the deck than drawing two hoot. Because that means the deck is doomed.

 

--- ---

I never said opening hoot was the end of the world, the point I'm trying to get across is that the most optimal opening for us is either mag or jelly. I don't feel that the rank 3 plays are the best choice moving forward anymore because getting rid of 1 backrow with like an alucard leaves us a lot more open to Shaddolls abusing their fusion spell the following turn. I think what makes madolches scary is the fact that we can not only otk, but grind as well. Backrow helps us gain advantage if timed properly and it can also enable us to get our combos through. Our defensive line should be veiler(maybe maxing out in main deck) and backrow. ROTA to 2 does help us out a lot, but I feel it should enable us to push harder instead of bait out backrow.

 

 

Also it's incredibly narrow to think the only rank 3 play against backrow is "alucard and hope." There are times Alucard is applicable, and times not. Opening against Shadolls is not such a time, since you're going to activate the spell, and risk hitting a Shadoll. If you misread Geargia going into a Shadoll game, I feel bad for ya, son. More importantly, that's drawing a straw man (wow feels like 2008 again) to a previous subject I talked about.

Believe it or not, the entirety of someone's posts here do not form one long argument, but rather discussion on various, separate points. It's not valid to grab someone I said earlier involving a different subject (in that case, how monsters interact with backrow in order to create valid sustainable aggression against heavy back-row) and apply it here (the discussion about hand openings).

--- ---

 

My point is not that thinking hootcake to 2 was a bad idea INHERENTLY. The reason you did this was VALID. Hoot as a 1500 vanilla is garbage. HOWEVER. What is also garbage is, outside of Hootcake discussion, the IDEA YOU GUYS TOUCHED ON and brought to light: the idea of the opening 6.

 

Triple Magiliene, Triple Anjelly. These form our optimal six cards to see in the opening hand because they transition into the Hootcake +2 play that Anjelly facilitates, or complete the combo in tandem with level 3s.

 

What I am trying to clarify is that six cards is an unacceptably small pool of optimal engine draws.

 

Your seeing Hootcake as a suboptimal draw is valid. However, your response, cutting him to two, does not solve the problem of still only wanting to see those six to survive. Which is a problem.

 

What I proposed is that instead of giving up on Hoot we need decklists that allow him to become an optimal draw by adjusting their ratios to allow for food to be a constant. Nate Forte's build was AN EXAMPLE and stands INDEPENDENT from the point I was making using it as a vehicle.

 

Literally. Every single point I made, missed.

 

Nate Forte's build made drawing 1 Hoot optimal? Baiting backrow with monsters isn't optimal. What?

 

Six opening cards is not a valid deck moving forward to compete? You're being narrow minded about 2 Hoot. It's a bad 2-of draw What?

 

These are not the points I'm making please say it with me now:

 

Six. Optimal. Madolches. Is. Not. Enough.

 

That was my point. That was the "it." The buck stopped there. Wasn't arguing FOR the Nate Forte, wasn't arguing the REASONING behind 2 Hoot was invalid, but was directing the discussion towards a problem in deck consistency being reliant on seeing 6 cards early.

 

My proposed solution was that deck builds now should look to make Hootcake more valid in the early game by running lists that allow for more special summonable monsters or hand traps (a suggestion Victor made, but for unrelated problems, rather to deal with the turn one issue).

 

Why did I propose this? Nobody else is going to be able to fit the bill. There is no way Gelato or Mew can be made that important, and any secondary engines we've been running up until this point either don't help our win condition or tempo AT ALL (see: Hands and Traptrix, see also: Sam Pedigo's applying Magic concepts to Yugioh) or are dependent combo pieces. These do not offer avenues for addressing this crippling problem.

 

The only really approachable angle, then, are builds that optimize Hootcake even as a standalone, which allows us the potential of running a deck with 9 optimal Madolche draws.

 

This is why I was saying 2 Hoot needs to die. Not because Hoot as a vanilla is a bad argument, but because if we want this deck to matter at all moving forward, Hoot can't be allowed to be a turn 1 vanilla because we're going to draw him at 2 anyway and he needs to be LIVE when we draw him. If he was, then this wouldn't be an issue.

 

And with Hand Traps becoming so relevant to the current, and upcoming, meta because of the new threats incoming and the 5-card rule, as well as RotA going to 2 and Spell Striker still being a really flexible combo piece and card for set-up in this deck, and with the gigantic pool of potential tech choices Madolches have certified results with on one level or another, this problem indeed has a solution. WE CAN FIX THIS. What we can't do is ignore that 2 optimal monsters is simply not enough.

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».ben.    7437

While this discussion is great and all - realistically, what does this deck that  (1) special summons twice per turn regularly in order to make it's only real play, and (2) has a non-Xyz attack threshold of 2100 do about Midrash? The problem is compounded by the fact that the Midrash back-up plan (Caius) banishes, not destroys. 

"ooh traps! and disruption" arguments only go so far. The best deck of the next set particularly rapes madolche. 

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gvez    1
Vincent you're also missing my point. I'm all for making hoot live. But if we are talking about most optimal openings, his spot is at 2. Sure there will be games where you still open him and that's when we can make him live. There is a 58% of opening jelly or mag going first. (Most optimal, not the only optimal) 69% chance of opening 1 of 8 optimal cards (including hoot at 2). Having hoot at 3 only raises the chance of opening one of them by 5%.(74%) Instead of changing the whole list to accommodate drawing hoot specifically, we should focus on getting our openings strong while having ways to make hoot live just in case we do open him. I would say the way we make him live is with hand traps and a small secondary engine.

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KidFlash    19
For those using the tg engine. What is your synchros. Right now I am playing goyo and the naturia duo but ive been considering fitting in mist wurm. Thoughts?

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Vincent210    510

While this discussion is great and all - realistically, what does this deck that  (1) special summons twice per turn regularly in order to make it's only real play, and (2) has a non-Xyz attack threshold of 2100 do about Midrash? The problem is compounded by the fact that the Midrash back-up plan (Caius) banishes, not destroys. 

"ooh traps! and disruption" arguments only go so far. The best deck of the next set particularly rapes madolche. 

 

This is a really good question. We sort of need a idea for that. I mean, until I can think of something better, it's worth noting that with RotA at 2 we can hit up the warrior toolbox. D.D. Warrior Lady is a card... I guess?

 

Vincent you're also missing my point. I'm all for making hoot live. But if we are talking about most optimal openings, his spot is at 2. Sure there will be games where you still open him and that's when we can make him live. There is a 58% of opening jelly or mag going first. (Most optimal, not the only optimal) 69% chance of opening 1 of 8 optimal cards (including hoot at 2). Having hoot at 3 only raises the chance of opening one of them by 5%.(74%) Instead of changing the whole list to accommodate drawing hoot specifically, we should focus on getting our openings strong while having ways to make hoot live just in case we do open him. I would say the way we make him live is with hand traps and a small secondary engine.

 

 

Ideally we need to break 80%. It's true Hoot won't get us there, but it gets us closer. And yeah, I agree. A secondary engine and han traps used wisely in the maindeck will get us where we are going. But if that is true we're not afraid to see Hoot more often if our number of opening in which an added (i.e. sixth card) or included Hoot pass an optimal threshold. Maybe we could put that little statistical engine we were given earlier to use! At least I'm going to. Even 8 good openings is less than we can have, so it's less than we need.

 

 

For those using the tg engine. What is your synchros. Right now I am playing goyo and the naturia duo but ive been considering fitting in mist wurm. Thoughts?

 

At that point your investment is kind of getting a bit too huge. If you need removal of that nature you might look into Vulcan the Divine.

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KidFlash    19
Honestly ive found that shadolls are not that hard. Just get to a breakthrough,prison, compulsory, etc or just play smart and dont overextend.

@vincent thank you for reminding me vulcan is a card.

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».ben.    7437

Honestly ive found that shadolls are not that hard. Just get to a breakthrough,prison, compulsory, etc or just play smart and dont overextend.

@vincent thank you for reminding me vulcan is a card.

 

I'm not sure what overextending would have to do with it.

But all they have to do is sit on Midrash (or whatever her name is...Winda??) And not attack into your prison. Sure, eventually you hit breakthrough, but then they have their own traps or just come back with midrash again. 

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Vincent210    510

 

Honestly ive found that shadolls are not that hard. Just get to a breakthrough,prison, compulsory, etc or just play smart and dont overextend.

@vincent thank you for reminding me vulcan is a card.

 

I'm not sure what overextending would have to do with it.

But all they have to do is sit on Midrash (or whatever her name is...Winda??) And not attack into your prison. Sure, eventually you hit breakthrough, but then they have their own traps or just come back with midrash again. 

 

 

Well no that's the nice thing. If you hit your answer and you push it through, chances are since you were forced to play sit-grind pass-go for a while that you have all the resources to just flat OTK or otherwise do major damage and establishment. You only need one opening so you only need to resolve one answer.

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Wiggins    84

I was thinking Legendary Jujitsu Master might actually be a decent side board card for this deck.

  • Level 3.
  • 1800 Def is rather beefy.
  • Can hit the grave after spinning an El Shaddoll, and therefore setting up a Hootcake play.
  • EARTH. (Not like it matters at this point).

Apologies to prattle on about the same thing, but I believe that given the flood of Shaddoll players we're about to see, I'd say the grind-esque builds (primarily Traptrix) will be the optimal play style for this deck. In terms of it not having a better trap line up than HAT is somewhat irrelevant, as it'll be nothing more than a bad match-up for those who run this variant of Madolche, although the trap line is hardly different, aside from Sanctums, and Call of the Haunted, and even then, we have the Stun/Queen play, which HAT can barely respond to, given the fact they are always changing their Wiretap count. I think playing the Traptrix engine gives us a good Shaddoll match-up, as we have access to cards like Spacetime Trap Hole, and Deep Dark Trap Hole in the side board.

 

I genuinely took your words on board Vincent, and thought that the combo variant was probably the more optimal build, given all of the search options for increased consistency, and two card interactions generating a +4, but I believe that it will change given the new format we're about to enter. Other combo decks are adapting to Shaddolls as well, heck, Sylvan players are talking about adopting a "Big Tree Beatdown" strategy for the Shaddoll match-up, so I think that given the fact a single Midrash outright destroys this deck, I believe a new approach is necessary.

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».ben.    7437

 

 

Honestly ive found that shadolls are not that hard. Just get to a breakthrough,prison, compulsory, etc or just play smart and dont overextend.

@vincent thank you for reminding me vulcan is a card.

 
I'm not sure what overextending would have to do with it.
But all they have to do is sit on Midrash (or whatever her name is...Winda??) And not attack into your prison. Sure, eventually you hit breakthrough, but then they have their own traps or just come back with midrash again.

 

 
Well no that's the nice thing. If you hit your answer and you push it through, chances are since you were forced to play sit-grind pass-go for a while that you have all the resources to just flat OTK or otherwise do major damage and establishment. You only need one opening so you only need to resolve one answer.

 


So you are envisioning a scenario where you drew BTS, Jelly, and Trap Stun and they have no answers to any of that?

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Vincent210    510

Nope. I'm envisioning a game where they opened Midrash and I've been twiddling my thumbs grinding on a Mag or something. Now if I hit an answer, Fiendish, Breakthrough, Book, etc. I'm going to go ham because I've been doing nothing but sitting on my ass and collecting cards they wouldn't let me play. Chances are if I hit a level three I can even do the floating hoot combo and shuffle them and then put a good 8300 on the board.

 

One out, one shot, one kill. Unless they're sitting on HAT-like row and future builds tend that way, this is actually a pretty valid possibility. This is how floodgate decks have always worked. If the gates come down and the other person hasn't lost by the time the gates are gone, you win in that moment.

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».ben.    7437

But while you twiddle, so do they. I just think you're viewing this scenario through some pretty rosy glasses. 

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Wiggins    84

By the time you've amounted what you need to make a play, Shaddolls will have gathered far too much advantage. They will never just sit on a Midrash. Hell, they could even summon a second.

 

Does anyone else feel that perhaps this new meta will make the deck borderline unplayable in competitive play?

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Vincent210    510

But while you twiddle, so do they. I just think you're viewing this scenario through some pretty rosy glasses. 

 

Maybe I am, but that just comes from an experience where people consistently give floodgate based decks consistently more credit than they deserve. It's almost a longstanding yugioh tradition. However, I fully admit I could be entirely wrong about this.

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».ben.    7437

By the time you've amounted what you need to make a play, Shaddolls will have gathered far too much advantage. They will never just sit on a Midrash. Hell, they could even summon a second.
 
Does anyone else feel that perhaps this new meta will make the deck borderline unplayable in competitive play?


I am leaning that way, yes.

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».ben.    7437

By the time you've amounted what you need to make a play, Shaddolls will have gathered far too much advantage. They will never just sit on a Midrash. Hell, they could even summon a second.
 
Does anyone else feel that perhaps this new meta will make the deck borderline unplayable in competitive play?


I am leaning that way.

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Wiggins    84

The only way I can see this deck going forward is how I mentioned in one of my previous posts on the previous page.

 

In terms of siding, you can easily shut them out with cards like Deep Dark Trap Hole (banishes, not destroy), Shadow-Imprisoning Mirror for the weenie monsters, Legendary Jujitsu Master to deal with any boss monster thrown your way, and of course, Different Dimension Ground.

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Vincent210    510

Though hit me earlier today, never got a chance to share. Tempo is our key.

 

See what Midrash really implies for our deck is that we need to be able to generate and maintain resources over an extended period. Because they have the floodgate, but we have the explosive potential, they are the beatdown. Granted they're in a wonderful position to do so, But understanding that relationship means combating better.

 

I think we might need to try out interaction pauses like Threatening Roar. Carrying a level 4 over a turn to allow us to make practical Xyzs, or just generally extending and capitalizing on our ability to grind resources by extending the game and, MORE IMPORTANTLY, the lives of our resources, namely our level 4s, we can accomplish what we need to do to win. More on that later but basically I'm just saying thinking in tempo makes our relation to Shadolls much more tangible and solutions much more applicable.

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Stranger    276

Unfortunately we lose to Lightsworn a lot, but otherwise this deck is pretty boss. Run PWWB and Cruffssant for the combos and chainability.

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Wiggins    84

Unfortunately we lose to Lightsworn a lot, but otherwise this deck is pretty boss. Run PWWB and Cruffssant for the combos and chainability.

It's the least of our concern at this point, but you can avoid losing to Lightsworn if you side well. (E.g. Deep Dark Trap Hole, Light-Imprisoning Mirror).

 

Cruff is dire. It does nothing for this deck, and it's more optimal plays.

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timanthony    10

Any thoughts on this deck post Duelist alliance ?

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Drewsifer    49

I think this deck has an amazing Stellaknight matchup. All your monsters with the field spell are bigger than theirs, and with ticket making your cards float I could see this deck having a very easy time G1 against that deck, and G2 and G3 siding LIM makes this deck even better. 

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