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Living Legend    3815
[quote name="Brandon Wigley" post="3771958" timestamp="1402371035"]dgz moral leaders unite[/quote] Stein man is bringing the moral tech to this discussion
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Brandon Wigley    3459

dgz moral leaders unite

Stein man is bringing the moral tech to this discussion

Hey you got the joke!

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»TS Fearless    7083

I would just rather click on Deck Discussions and see, you know, deck discussions and not you guys trying to throw your big internet dicks around.

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Brandon Wigley    3459

I would just rather click on Deck Discussions and see, you know, deck discussions and not you guys trying to throw your big internet dicks around.

are you trying to flatter me?

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+Urthor    10297

I would just rather click on Deck Discussions and see, you know, deck discussions and not you guys trying to throw your big internet dicks around.

 

 

Most of the motivation to post intelligent comments in these threads is just people trying to look smart lets face it. 

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Vincent210    509
Wow, such great community. Oh, right. Discussion. I kind of want to dig into the wiretap wars, if everyone is back to actual discussion. Not so much avoiding them, but more about how you best win them. Let's talk best ways to bait?
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RobertM    86

Start running disruption cards that aren't traps, since a large part of "wiretap wars" are your opponent stopping you from interrupting their plays.  Lance is pretty mediocre in the mirror, unfortunately, and everybody is already maining Book.  Time to shift back to Veiler?  Obviously it does little vs GGX but stopping Exciton/101/Alucard/whatever is pretty relevant.  Also freezing Armor in face-up attack seems a bit more than marginal.

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Vincent210    509
Neither of those answer my question. I'll try again. Yes, 5 wiretap. Yes, we could POTENTIALLY avoid the wiretap wars. But let's accept that if wee running the damn card, and we have traps that need to resolve (hint: we do) it might be time to see if there are more optimal ways to PLAY the traps were using in order to operate within this "around every corner a two may hide" mentality.

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+Urthor    10297

I mean I get that you play around the wiretap, but not sure how it reallyt fits into deck discussion.

 

 

If I have a black horn, a warning, a bottomless, and I think he has wiretap, I don't bottomless a Gigant that was made without monsters in grave like I normally would, I'd black horn it, then he taps the horn, then I bth it.  Basic stuff like that is part of your general techical play, it's sort of hard to "write it down" on paper when you just think about it in the game. 

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GerardoSDR    173

I mean I get that you play around the wiretap, but not sure how it reallyt fits into deck discussion.

 

 

If I have a black horn, a warning, a bottomless, and I think he has wiretap, I don't bottomless a Gigant that was made without monsters in grave like I normally would, I'd black horn it, then he taps the horn, then I bth it.  Basic stuff like that is part of your general techical play, it's sort of hard to "write it down" on paper when you just think about it in the game. 

that's a very narrow example. sometimes you dont have that many answers, sometimes you only have the black horn

 

about the wiretap wars, i found that usually the best way to use it is waiting until your oponent tries to negate your black horn/traphole nightmare/warning/etc and then you answering with your own wiretap, that way you are put so further in card advantage and tempo that it isnt very problematic to fall on a black horn later on since you are ahead in the game, it's still really annoying to get into wiretap wars, but the best way to use it is forcing your oponent's one and negating it so you dont have to deal with it later on

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Mr Cook    472

I mean I get that you play around the wiretap, but not sure how it reallyt fits into deck discussion.

 

 

If I have a black horn, a warning, a bottomless, and I think he has wiretap, I don't bottomless a Gigant that was made without monsters in grave like I normally would, I'd black horn it, then he taps the horn, then I bth it.  Basic stuff like that is part of your general techical play, it's sort of hard to "write it down" on paper when you just think about it in the game. 

that's a very narrow example. sometimes you dont have that many answers, sometimes you only have the black horn

 

about the wiretap wars, i found that usually the best way to use it is waiting until your oponent tries to negate your black horn/traphole nightmare/warning/etc and then you answering with your own wiretap, that way you are put so further in card advantage and tempo that it isnt very problematic to fall on a black horn later on since you are ahead in the game, it's still really annoying to get into wiretap wars, but the best way to use it is forcing your oponent's one and negating it so you dont have to deal with it later on

 

The game doesn't work like that, you don't get the chance in the Gear mirror to just pass on activating any big Traps until you have your own Wiretap down.
 
The mirror (and a lot of the format) is about applying pressure to the other player, if you are staring down 3 backrow, and your opponent makes a Gigant against your set Black Horn, is holding the Black Horn and letting your opponent put a ton of damage and plusses on the board the correct play? Of course not, you slam the Black Horn and pray they don't have the Wiretap, there's nothing more about it.
 
What Urthor says is relevant, its the same logic you should be applying to any backrow read, like the example given, Black Horn + Bottomless against a read on a set Wiretap, and how that should be played. The thing is you should be playing like this anyway, if you make a read on the Torrential or the Needle Ceiling you should give yourself the maximum opportunity to play around (whether it be only committing a certain amount of resources to the board, or ensuring that your opponent can't force your floating Gigants to miss the timing.
 
The same logic which is applied to "playing around" Wiretap is the same logic which should be applied across the game, but a lot of the time the choice is either I respond to my opponent with Traps or they put too much pressure on me and I lose, so "avoiding the Wiretap wars" isn't really a thing at the moment.
 
If you want to discuss the aspect of how to defend yourself without playing into your opponent's Wiretap, then you would tend to use things like Forbidden Lance/Forbidden Chalice, Effect Veiler and cards like this, the problem though is that these cards are all really sub-par to begin with and you'd probably still rather just have the fear of your Traps being Wiretapped rather than play these cards instead.
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+Urthor    10297

I mean you can say "oh but you'll have a wiretap down."

 

Then what happens when he has a set 5 and is highly likely to have 2 negaters tho

 

You need to learn how to play this stuff, but beating wiretap isn't next level knowledge, it's kinda just entry level.  If he sets 5, or if you see him set 4 cards, flip three live ones, then repeatedly ok a million gigants with a mystery set, you know he has wiretap.  Therefore you play around it.  \\

 

Sort of don't know if there's a whole lot you can add as a generalisation because every scenario is going to be really situational.  I mean if your opponent wiretaps a black horn of yours, and you have bth or compulse or fiendish nightmare down, you have a choice on whether to wiretap his wiretap, or let his wiretap through and use another piece of removal, and you can make the right choice depending on whether you have a lot of wiretap traps and whether you need them more than you need compulse/bth/nightmare.  

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M.C.B.    172

I am still testing My body as a shield and it is performing exceptional

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Vincent210    509

I mean you can say "oh but you'll have a wiretap down."

 

Then what happens when he has a set 5 and is highly likely to have 2 negaters tho

 

You need to learn how to play this stuff, but beating wiretap isn't next level knowledge, it's kinda just entry level.  If he sets 5, or if you see him set 4 cards, flip three live ones, then repeatedly ok a million gigants with a mystery set, you know he has wiretap.  Therefore you play around it.  \\

 

Sort of don't know if there's a whole lot you can add as a generalisation because every scenario is going to be really situational.  I mean if your opponent wiretaps a black horn of yours, and you have bth or compulse or fiendish nightmare down, you have a choice on whether to wiretap his wiretap, or let his wiretap through and use another piece of removal, and you can make the right choice depending on whether you have a lot of wiretap traps and whether you need them more than you need compulse/bth/nightmare.  

 

This is honestly what I figured, but the discussion that came out of it was still what I wanted. Like I just wanted to pick people's brains to figure out whether the wiretap craze and the subsequent format choices that spawn from it really just come down reading backrow and playing yugioh with a new, annoying standard play, or if maybe I was missing something and we were looking at an information cascade or something.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that wiretap wars seemed silly and for these to be part of optimal yugioh seemed questionable.

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»victor    6404

Neither of those answer my question. I'll try again. Yes, 5 wiretap. Yes, we could POTENTIALLY avoid the wiretap wars. But let's accept that if wee running the damn card, and we have traps that need to resolve (hint: we do) it might be time to see if there are more optimal ways to PLAY the traps were using in order to operate within this "around every corner a two may hide" mentality.


A possible way to beat this trend is to play Greenkappa in here.

 

It's actually quite easy to pass it off as a Geargiarmor, and it's seen play before.

 

There are cards like Nobleman of Extermination (although competitively you'd never play it because you can see each other's decks to verify), and Bait Doll (which is like MST but does not destroy Sanctum or Moralltach).

 

There's also this recently released card, Shogi Knight, which is like a Marauding Breaker for Geargia and Madolche, but more probably Windups (getting Rat and Rabbit for Rank 3s).

 

It's searchable by Tenki and it has the Artifact immunity, not to mention being able to followup into Soul of Silvermountain or Alucard for further S/T hate.

 

You kind of have to focus more on the Rank 3 aspect though, which works for some decks better than others (Invoker, Meliae, and so on).

 

Plants for instance, can use Dandy, Card Trooper, Crane Crane, etc.

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M.C.B.    172

Neither of those answer my question. I'll try again. Yes, 5 wiretap. Yes, we could POTENTIALLY avoid the wiretap wars. But let's accept that if wee running the damn card, and we have traps that need to resolve (hint: we do) it might be time to see if there are more optimal ways to PLAY the traps were using in order to operate within this "around every corner a two may hide" mentality.


A possible way to beat this trend is to play Greenkappa in here.

 

It's actually quite easy to pass it off as a Geargiarmor, and it's seen play before.

 

There are cards like Nobleman of Extermination (although competitively you'd never play it because you can see each other's decks to verify), and Bait Doll (which is like MST but does not destroy Sanctum or Moralltach).

 

There's also this recently released card, Shogi Knight, which is like a Marauding Breaker for Geargia and Madolche, but more probably Windups (getting Rat and Rabbit for Rank 3s).

 

It's searchable by Tenki and it has the Artifact immunity, not to mention being able to followup into Soul of Silvermountain or Alucard for further S/T hate.

 

You kind of have to focus more on the Rank 3 aspect though, which works for some decks better than others (Invoker, Meliae, and so on).

 

Plants for instance, can use Dandy, Card Trooper, Crane Crane, etc.

 

Have heard of Bait oll being suggested earlier this week, good find, maybe too linear though, MST still hits faceup cards and maybe Dust tornado would be better instead. It won't do anything vs. Sanctum though.

 

As for greenkappa (especially like this one) and Shogi knight, they use your Normal summon and if you were willing to give it up, you would probably rather play Fire and Ice hands, wouldn't you?

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GerardoSDR    173
[quote name="Mr Cook" post="3772123" timestamp="1402389965"][quote name="GerardoSDR" post="3772072" timestamp="1402384257"][quote name="Urthor" post="3772046" timestamp="1402380723"] I mean I get that you play around the wiretap, but not sure how it reallyt fits into deck discussion.     If I have a black horn, a warning, a bottomless, and I think he has wiretap, I don't bottomless a Gigant that was made without monsters in grave like I normally would, I'd black horn it, then he taps the horn, then I bth it.  Basic stuff like that is part of your general techical play, it's sort of hard to "write it down" on paper when you just think about it in the game.  [/quote] that's a very narrow example. sometimes you dont have that many answers, sometimes you only have the black horn   about the wiretap wars, i found that usually the best way to use it is waiting until your oponent tries to negate your black horn/traphole nightmare/warning/etc and then you answering with your own wiretap, that way you are put so further in card advantage and tempo that it isnt very problematic to fall on a black horn later on since you are ahead in the game, it's still really annoying to get into wiretap wars, but the best way to use it is forcing your oponent's one and negating it so you dont have to deal with it later on[/quote]   The game doesn't work like that, you don't get the chance in the Gear mirror to just pass on activating any big Traps until you have your own Wiretap down.   The mirror (and a lot of the format) is about applying pressure to the other player, if you are staring down 3 backrow, and your opponent makes a Gigant against your set Black Horn, is holding the Black Horn and letting your opponent put a ton of damage and plusses on the board the correct play? Of course not, you slam the Black Horn and pray they don't have the Wiretap, there's nothing more about it.   What Urthor says is relevant, its the same logic you should be applying to any backrow read, like the example given, Black Horn + Bottomless against a read on a set Wiretap, and how that should be played. The thing is you should be playing like this anyway, if you make a read on the Torrential or the Needle Ceiling you should give yourself the maximum opportunity to play around (whether it be only committing a certain amount of resources to the board, or ensuring that your opponent can't force your floating Gigants to miss the timing.   The same logic which is applied to "playing around" Wiretap is the same logic which should be applied across the game, but a lot of the time the choice is either I respond to my opponent with Traps or they put too much pressure on me and I lose, so "avoiding the Wiretap wars" isn't really a thing at the moment.   If you want to discuss the aspect of how to defend yourself without playing into your opponent's Wiretap, then you would tend to use things like Forbidden Lance/Forbidden Chalice, Effect Veiler and cards like this, the problem though is that these cards are all really sub-par to begin with and you'd probably still rather just have the fear of your Traps being Wiretapped rather than play these cards instead.[/quote] I know is not that easy if they put a lot of pressure sure you have to use your traps, but the ideal way is to force your oponent to waste theirs first
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scarsneverh3al    544

What are you guys finding to be the harder matchups? The Mirror is always who draws better, Gears shits on HAT. I am having trouble with Water and Madolche though. How do you guys win that matchup presiding?

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+Urthor    10297

Why do you think there's some magic advice we can give you that will magically improve your pre-sided matchup with Mermail and Madolche.

 

Play as well as you can.  Don't misplay.  That's all there is too it.  There's nothing I can say like "do this prescriptive thing very differently" that will dramatically change how things are going for you, you jsut need to stop making any mistakes you personally are currently making.  Play well and summon the right xyz monsters vs water and respect the right outs.   

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TcHa    132

In the words of Sun Tzu: “If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

 

My best advice is to play with those decks you have problems with (i.e., Water, Madolche, etc) against an experienced Geargia player. That way you not only learn how their deck functions in this matchup, but which plays are available to them or which plays are most vulnerable to disruption.

 

The Madolche matchup isn't really that difficult because our maindeck is already very strong against that matchup. We also have the advantage of playing more traps than them so we usually are controlling the tempo of the game. Once we are able to simplify the game-state we pretty much win because Madolche plays a lot of cards that are bad on their own.

 

Water is always going to be one of our toughest matchups and a lot of times we just have to concede game 1. But post side with all the floodgates we have a fighting chance. If we are able to stop Marksman loops and and recurring Tidals the game is much more manageable.

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nicktom24    183

In everyone's opinion, how skill intensive is the geargia mirror? To me it seems like a lot of the time it can be a coin flip but granted I'm not as experienced with the deck as some of you might be. Would anyone who's well-versed in the mirror mind sharing their thoughts?

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GerardoSDR    173

I'm seeing that hat is losing popularity in favor of hand traptrix fire fist, which I find to be a kinda dificult matchup since you cant use the usual gameplan vs hat as bear pops the set armor, what do you think would be an apropiate change for that? im thinking of using skill prisioner since you can use it preventively before attacking a hand or to stop bear

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RobertM    86

Given roughly equal openings, it's very skill-intensive.  At a certain level, both players know pretty much exactly what the other player has, and it becomes a game of using your extra deck as efficiently as possible.

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GerardoSDR    173

In everyone's opinion, how skill intensive is the geargia mirror? To me it seems like a lot of the time it can be a coin flip but granted I'm not as experienced with the deck as some of you might be. Would anyone who's well-versed in the mirror mind sharing their thoughts?

as RobertM said, it's pretty skillfull unless one opens really bad (all monsters or all traps) usually you have to play around the wiretaps, horns, trap hole nightmares, alucard, etc.

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