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POLLUTEDxDELTA

1st Place Goat Control tournament

37 posts in this topic

I think Goat Control is the best format of any card game I have ever played, and I wish that there was more support for it (if there was ever a YCS Goat Control, I would 100% attend). 

 

This.

 

Good job. You definitely have some interesting theories about Goat Format. Particularly the heavy beaters + 3x Book of Moon lineup. To me, beaters have always seemed susceptible to TER. But with the 3x Book you are often able to successfully negate it, which is huge. The other issue I see is there are few monsters to run over in Goat Format, so it's hard to gain real advantage through battle.

 

I agree that Exarion >>> Asura.

 

Also, I am a bit sad with the general level of play on DGZ. Saw lots of opponents misplay hard against you in your videos.

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I think Goat Control is the best format of any card game I have ever played, and I wish that there was more support for it (if there was ever a YCS Goat Control, I would 100% attend). 

 

This.

 

Good job. You definitely have some interesting theories about Goat Format. Particularly the heavy beaters + 3x Book of Moon lineup. To me, beaters have always seemed susceptible to TER. But with the 3x Book you are often able to successfully negate it, which is huge. The other issue I see is there are few monsters to run over in Goat Format, so it's hard to gain real advantage through battle.

 

I agree that Exarion >>> Asura.

 

Also, I am a bit sad with the general level of play on DGZ. Saw lots of opponents misplay hard against you in your videos.

Can you point out some of the more obscure mistakes?

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It's not fresh in my mind, so I can't point to any specifics. But tons of forgetting serpents, lots of failed "pro-storms", lots of turn 1 graceful+sinister, very little holding of delinquent duos for ideal situations, lots of goat locking themselves when they are winning. Just generally doing too much when the correct play is probably to do nothing and wait for your opponent to play into your hand.

 

Also, I saw lots of people use TER on facedown monsters with no plan for after when the field gets locked up by a 0 ATK / 0 DEF nightmare steel cage. Even when they were in a strong position.

 

Oh oh oh. And so many people getting back pot of greed and instantly playing it with MoF. Loading their hands with 8-9 cards, and having to discard or commit heavily to the field. That's like my favorite thing to see happen, because then I just pass go pass go until I set up a mass removal play. The better thing to do is to simplify the game with 1-1's when you already have +4, not draw more cards.

 

Another thing I'm curious but less sure about:

Often when someone is at 8000 lp, they take an attack from a monster (like DDWL, for example) even though they have scapegoat. I am of the mindset that taking the 1500 or so is definitely not worth it, because you are taking a big chance that not playing scapegoat that turn is somehow going to translate to increased card advantage later. Most decent players will not allow you to take advantage of this, and you've just gotten that much closer to 0 lp. I think people undervalue life points when they are at 8000 compared to 5000. I usually play as if I have 5000 even when I am at 8000, if that makes any sense.

 

These are just my 2 (or 20?) cents. I love goat format and think about this stuff all the time. Curious to hear what you guys think.

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It's not fresh in my mind, so I can't point to any specifics. But tons of forgetting serpents, lots of failed "pro-storms", lots of turn 1 graceful+sinister, very little holding of delinquent duos for ideal situations, lots of goat locking themselves when they are winning. Just generally doing too much when the correct play is probably to do nothing and wait for your opponent to play into your hand.

 

Also, I saw lots of people use TER on facedown monsters with no plan for after when the field gets locked up by a 0 ATK / 0 DEF nightmare steel cage. Even when they were in a strong position.

 

Oh oh oh. And so many people getting back pot of greed and instantly playing it with MoF. Loading their hands with 8-9 cards, and having to discard or commit heavily to the field. That's like my favorite thing to see happen, because then I just pass go pass go until I set up a mass removal play. The better thing to do is to simplify the game with 1-1's when you already have +4, not draw more cards.

 

Another thing I'm curious but less sure about:

Often when someone is at 8000 lp, they take an attack from a monster (like DDWL, for example) even though they have scapegoat. I am of the mindset that taking the 1500 or so is definitely not worth it, because you are taking a big chance that not playing scapegoat that turn is somehow going to translate to increased card advantage later. Most decent players will not allow you to take advantage of this, and you've just gotten that much closer to 0 lp. I think people undervalue life points when they are at 8000 compared to 5000. I usually play as if I have 5000 even when I am at 8000, if that makes any sense.

 

These are just my 2 (or 20?) cents. I love goat format and think about this stuff all the time. Curious to hear what you guys think.

 

Yeah, i think the problem with established positions in goat is that impacient people get greedy and draw like you mentioned or overcommit, whereas a pacient guy with the card advantage will just go for the 1for1 until the op runs out of options.

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HomunculustheAlchemicBeing-CP07-EN-C-UE.

 

Like ok.  I know taht 1900 means you can wall parsnip with skilled white.  But 1700 is 100 less attack than Exarion.  That's obscenely relevant.

 

 

I've thought this card was way better than skilled white for ages, and I still do.  

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What about not being a spellcaster? I am trying to figure out if that is good or bad vs. Tribe.

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I find your list to be atrocious but needle ceiling is fire I have been trying to test it recently

And @urthor I would much rather just wall the exarion and wait for my meta/snatch/tribute monster etc than 1-1.
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It's not fresh in my mind, so I can't point to any specifics. But tons of forgetting serpents, lots of failed "pro-storms", lots of turn 1 graceful+sinister, very little holding of delinquent duos for ideal situations, lots of goat locking themselves when they are winning. Just generally doing too much when the correct play is probably to do nothing and wait for your opponent to play into your hand.

 

Also, I saw lots of people use TER on facedown monsters with no plan for after when the field gets locked up by a 0 ATK / 0 DEF nightmare steel cage. Even when they were in a strong position.

 

Oh oh oh. And so many people getting back pot of greed and instantly playing it with MoF. Loading their hands with 8-9 cards, and having to discard or commit heavily to the field. That's like my favorite thing to see happen, because then I just pass go pass go until I set up a mass removal play. The better thing to do is to simplify the game with 1-1's when you already have +4, not draw more cards.

 

Another thing I'm curious but less sure about:

Often when someone is at 8000 lp, they take an attack from a monster (like DDWL, for example) even though they have scapegoat. I am of the mindset that taking the 1500 or so is definitely not worth it, because you are taking a big chance that not playing scapegoat that turn is somehow going to translate to increased card advantage later. Most decent players will not allow you to take advantage of this, and you've just gotten that much closer to 0 lp. I think people undervalue life points when they are at 8000 compared to 5000. I usually play as if I have 5000 even when I am at 8000, if that makes any sense.

 

These are just my 2 (or 20?) cents. I love goat format and think about this stuff all the time. Curious to hear what you guys think.

 

 

I have never really been a fan of holding onto Delinquent Duo. I generally use it asap, even if it means going blindly into Sinister. I feel like if my opponent has Sinister, it doesn't take long for it to come into play in one way or another, and make itself known. I recognize my style may not be the best, but it is how I learned to play Goats - the constant fear of opposing Duo, Spirit Reaper, and Don Zaloog. However, I do feel differently about Pot of Greed and Graceful Charity - I am more willing to save them compared to Duo. 

 

I 100% agree on people using TER with no game plan. If I am going to commit resources into a TER game state, I need to be getting something out of it besides just eating a monster - 1000 damage per turn is my bare minimum. I feel like TER is just a "time out" from the game state, in which neither player can answer it, so they just draw go until someone feels comfortable making the first move again.

 

Regarding life points, I am comfortable going down to 5500-6000, because that is generally a BLS + Ring play. iirc in my videos, I generally take the first two hits from a monster, but never more. I give myself 1-2 draw steps to find an answer to the monster, and if I cannot immediately find it, taking the -1 to stay at a higher life total is always worth it. It is easier to come back from a -1 than it is to play with 4000 life points.

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Holding Delinquent Duo always seems to work very well for me. Occasionally I will fire it off if I am in a weak position and cannot represent any board presence to block the potential Don/Reaper, but that's fairly rare. Those cards are also way less common in the current online meta than they were back in the day.

 

Besides the fear of Sinister, there is another big reason I like to hold Duo. And to me it's actually more important. When you play against good goat players, their hands tend to get better throughout the game, because they hold and accumulate power cards. Waiting to use Duo until mid-late game increases the probability of nailing important power cards. It is also much easier to nail power cards when your opponent's hand is 2-4 cards as opposed to 6. Yes, they are more likely to see Sinister Serpent over that time, but it is very easy to wait for your opponent's Sinister to hit the graveyard. This is usually the best time to play Duo: Turn 10+, Sinister in GY, 4 cards in hand.

 

Occasionally, you will be able to double Duo with MoF on a single turn. This is obviously game-breaking and can flat out win you the duel.

 

Another plus is that you keep your life points +1000 until you are ready to cripple your opponent. In my mind, this makes me slightly safer to guard against an OTK. If used properly, your opponent won't be able to mount a major swing against you after you play Duo anyway, making the 1000 lp payment less costly.

 

I believe in our top 4 match game 1 I drew Duo very early on, but decided to hold it because the game was going slow and you had a large hand. I set a stealthy MoF and got to use it twice in one turn and hit like 3-4 power cards. IMO that won me the game.

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I have never really been a fan of holding onto Delinquent Duo. I generally use it asap, even if it means going blindly into Sinister. I feel like if my opponent has Sinister, it doesn't take long for it to come into play in one way or another, and make itself known. I recognize my style may not be the best, but it is how I learned to play Goats - the constant fear of opposing Duo, Spirit Reaper, and Don Zaloog. However, I do feel differently about Pot of Greed and Graceful Charity - I am more willing to save them compared to Duo. 

 

I completely agree with not being compelled to hold onto Duo simply for fear of serpent.  To be completely honest, I do not recall anyone ever advocating doing that back then during the actual format.  Based on your posts it seems that you did in fact play back then, just wondering is this a correct assumption??

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this thread+all replies should probably be pinned and in the past formats thread (or at least have a link there). very good advanced goat format literature

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@DanMakesItRain yes I did play in 2005. I was 14 at the time, and a decent-at-best player. I was lucky to be able to play at the same locals as Jae Kim and Keanson Ye, who both influenced a lot of my early growth as a player. 

 

Regarding Delinquent Duo, I can understand why it may be considered a legitimate play now as opposed to 2005. Currently, when you know your opponent is playing Goat Control, you can make more calculated plays. But in 2005, not every person in a regionals or SJC was running Goat Control - things like Zombie Phoenix, Beastdown, Warrior Toolbox, Burn, and other outdated Goat Control lists were every where. The lists we use today are extremely unrealistic - like, I would never enter a tournament in 2005 without multiple Mobius, Des Wombat, Hallowed Life Barrier, DD Assailant, etc. 

 

Information on the best tech and trends was kept very secret, even mid way through events. It could be a one card difference out of the main 40 that could completely warp the game (such as Needle Ceiling). Players that were "not in the know" could range from a list that was outdated by one week, to months. Because the card pool was so limited, the meta became somewhat cyclical - cards that were determined to be bad (i.e. Max Suffridge's Nationals list) could incidentally become good again, because the best players would stop playing around certain outdated things. But good players knew this, and would not risk losing Delinquent Duo to a NoC into RotA into Don Zaloog play (again, despite how lack luster Don Zaloog became by late July - early August).

 

The role of the Delinquent Duo was to be proactive and stop the bullshit before it ever took form. 

 

I do use Delinquent Duo asap currently as both a force of habit and because I feel like Exarion / Skilled White are "must answer" plays. 

 

Everything being said, I think your play to hold Duo when I had a full hand was correct.

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Also Homunculus was fucking garbage.

 

Skilled White Magician > Thunder Nyan Nyan > Homunculus

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Good points about IRL whackness from 2005. It was nothing like online today.

 

I just remembered: the one time I always fire Duo turn 1 is against someone that I know plays Night Assailant or Thunder Dragon.

 

Otherwise it really depends on my hand, but I'd say 90% of the time I open with Duo, I wait. In my opinion, most players do not hold Sinister Serpent all that long once they get it, so I'm never too worried about waiting to use Duo for that reason. I can't tell you how many times I've played Duo following an opponent's Graceful+Sinister.

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3rd video, 27:00 min, is there a reason you didnt target skilled white magician with call of the haunted an attack for game, instead of targetting don zaloog? Does it have something to do with playing around book/goat/call or whatever? maybe im just missing something here 
oh btw 4th vid 5:20 min where you said you didnt have game, you did have game right? BLS, double attack and serpent attack. (1100+3000+300 =4400 damage. LP was 4300.) 
not trying to point out misplays or something, just trying to get a better understanding myself, since i don't know this format well /am not too good yet. 
good job anyway, I enjoyed watching the vids and the explanations were helpfull 

Edited by mark
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amazing report

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3rd video, 27:00 min, is there a reason you didnt target skilled white magician with call of the haunted an attack for game, instead of targetting don zaloog? Does it have something to do with playing around book/goat/call or whatever? maybe im just missing something here 
oh btw 4th vid 5:20 min where you said you didnt have game, you did have game right? BLS, double attack and serpent attack. (1100+3000+300 =4400 damage. LP was 4300.) 
not trying to point out misplays or something, just trying to get a better understanding myself, since i don't know this format well /am not too good yet. 
good job anyway, I enjoyed watching the vids and the explanations were helpfull 

 

Yes, you are right about both cases. Sometimes good players will miss opportunities for game when they are so pre-occupied with making smart, safe, advantage oriented plays. It's one of the difficult parts about goat format.

 

I actually might have played vid 4 @ 4:30 a bit differently and not even used Heavy storm in the first place. If I wanted to play it "safe" and avoid Goats / Book of moon I might have just brought out TER. Ideally you will get the breaker, and in the following turns you can still play Heavy, Tribute TER for Jinzo, and bring out BLS. The only downside to this play is something like book of moon or ring to negate your TER on that turn, which might suck, but then you can bring out BLS, run over breaker to drop opp to like 200 lp, and you still have a heavy storm in hand for subsequent Game attempts.

 

Also, I'd like to point out it's really easy to nit pick someone's plays when you can actually see their hand (ceilingxcat) but in reality he was probably making far fewer and less consequential mistakes than his opponents. We just can't see their hands + facedowns so we don't always know.

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Yeah I'm only on g2 vs LFN but I was trying to think of why you'd go for Don over Skilled outside of just trying to gain advantage. Loving the video's so far though, it's really nice to see insight into someone's plays.

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Just got through all the videos thanks for putting them up it was a great learning experience. 

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In your video vs confuse rei @18:05, I was hoping you would attack jinzo with bls and then flip it fd with tsuku after that way he’d have to crash into bls for 22 to the face to take it with ter so you wouldn’t have to try and stop it with mst. Then if he just sets serpent, you can just banish it with bls and attack with tsuku after flipping it back fd until you win.

 

Good videos all around.

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As an old school player, I feel duo should also never be used on turn 1, but this also depends on your hand and current setup. Is it true that most good players hold on to their power cards, so they can swap their moderate cards for your power cards. This method will actually make them one step up further in the game. Plus ones were big back then but trinity doesn't equal defeat.
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It's not fresh in my mind, so I can't point to any specifics. But tons of forgetting serpents, lots of failed "pro-storms", lots of turn 1 graceful+sinister, very little holding of delinquent duos for ideal situations, lots of goat locking themselves when they are winning. Just generally doing too much when the correct play is probably to do nothing and wait for your opponent to play into your hand.

 

Also, I saw lots of people use TER on facedown monsters with no plan for after when the field gets locked up by a 0 ATK / 0 DEF nightmare steel cage. Even when they were in a strong position.

 

Oh oh oh. And so many people getting back pot of greed and instantly playing it with MoF. Loading their hands with 8-9 cards, and having to discard or commit heavily to the field. That's like my favorite thing to see happen, because then I just pass go pass go until I set up a mass removal play. The better thing to do is to simplify the game with 1-1's when you already have +4, not draw more cards.

 

Another thing I'm curious but less sure about:

Often when someone is at 8000 lp, they take an attack from a monster (like DDWL, for example) even though they have scapegoat. I am of the mindset that taking the 1500 or so is definitely not worth it, because you are taking a big chance that not playing scapegoat that turn is somehow going to translate to increased card advantage later. Most decent players will not allow you to take advantage of this, and you've just gotten that much closer to 0 lp. I think people undervalue life points when they are at 8000 compared to 5000. I usually play as if I have 5000 even when I am at 8000, if that makes any sense.

 

These are just my 2 (or 20?) cents. I love goat format and think about this stuff all the time. Curious to hear what you guys think.

 

When is the most optimal time to use graceful+sinister if we shouldn't use it turn 1?

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