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oukiqt

Vanity's Emptiness vs Hands

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oukiqt    30

I control a Fire Hand.

 

Opponent controls a bigger monster and an Emptiness.

 

I declare an attack into my opponent's bigger monster.

 

In this scenario, would Fire Hand be able to summon an Ice Hand?

 

Fire Hand will destroy the opponent's monster, but when will Emptiness be destroyed? I understand Fire Hand is entirely one effect, so will Emptiness be destroyed at the end of Fire Hand's effect in a new chain thus not being able to summon Ice Hand? Or is there some sort of ability for Emptiness to self-destruct in the middle of an effect's resolution?

 

I'm fairly certain Fire won't be able to summon Ice, but I want to be make sure.

 

If we flip the scenario to where I control Ice Hand and ram, I should be able to summon Fire because Ice can destroy Vanity's as part of its effect, right?

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»Dashie    511
Emptiness triggers it's destruction effect on a new chain, so they won't be able to summon Ice

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ensane    163

Also, if it were Ice Hand destroyed, you still can't summon because you can't activate Ice Hand's effect at all. See Ghostrick Jackfrost vs Vanity's Emptiness.

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Forlum    9162

Yeah this makes no sense to me.

If "Jowgen the Spiritualist" is applying the "Neither player can Special Summon monsters." effect, the effect of "Ghostrick Jackfrost" that activates in hand cannot be activated. Also, if the effect of "Ghostrick Jackfrost" was activated, and then "Call of the Haunted" is activated in a Chain, Special Summoning"Jowgen the Spiritualist", the "You can change that opponent's monster to face-down Defense Position" effect will be applied, but the "Special Summon this card from your hand in face-down Defense Position." effect will be not applied. (The "Ghostrick Jackfrost" that cannot be Special Summoned remains in the hand.)

This implies that you can't activate any of Fire & Ice Hand's effects while Vanity/Jowgen is out.

but that doesn't make sense because:
 

AND IF YOU DO: <Do A, and if you do, do B>
Timeline: Considered simultaneous. Both happen at the same time.

Causation: A is required for B, but NOT vice-versa. If A does not happen, then stop. If B cannot happen, you still do A.

Basically, this phrase acts like “also” & “and” for Timeline purposes, but acts like “then” for Causation purposes.

Example: Memory of an Adversary (from Abyss Rising) says, in part:
When an opponent’s monster declares an attack: You take damage equal to the attacking monster’s ATK, and if you do, banish that monster.

Timing: When this effect resolves, taking damage and banishing the monster happen at the same time. Effects can be activated that happen “WHEN” you take damage, and effects can be activated that happen “WHEN” a monster is banished/leaves the field.

Causation: You have to take damage in order to banish the monster. If you can’t take damage because another effect prevents it, then you don’t banish the monster.


THEN: <Do A, then do B>
Timeline: B happens after A, even though they’re part of one card effect. These things happen in sequence, not simultaneously.

Causation: A is required for B, but NOT vice-versa. If A does not happen, then stop. If B cannot happen, you still do A.

Example: Heraldry Change (from Cosmo Blazer)
When an opponent’s monster declares an attack: Special Summon 1 “Heraldic Beast” monster from your hand, then end the Battle Phase.

Timing: After this card resolves, the last thing that happened was that you ended the Battle Phase. The last thing was NOT a monster being Summoned. Which means neither player can activate cards like Torrential Tribute that activate “WHEN” a monster is Summoned.

Causation: Summoning a “Heraldic Beast” is required in order to end the Battle Phase. If you can’t Summon for some reason, then you don’t end the Battle Phase. Suppose you activate this card, but then your opponent chains with something that causes you to discard the only “Heraldic Beast” you had in your hand. You can’t Summon anymore, so you stop resolving this card’s effect once you reach the “I can’t do that” part.


tl:dr "Then" effects and "And if you do" effects don't require B to happen for A to happen, but Jack's effect states that is not true for "And if you do" effects. Does that mean it's not true for "Then" effects?

 

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ensane    163

It's all one effect. You can't just negate part of an effect. The explanations on the article are about what to do if something happens [i]after activation[/i] which prevents some or part of the effect from resolving properly. This has nothing to do with Vanity's Emptiness which prevents the activation from even happening. It's like Bottomless Trap Hole vs Imperial Iron Wall. If Imperial Iron Wall is active, then Bottomless Trap hole can't be activated. That mirrors this situation. If Imperial Iron Wall is chained to Bottomless Trap Hole, the monster is destroyed, but not removed. This is what the article covers.

 

"Then" and "And if you do" are functionally the same in every way except timing.

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Dont Forget    609

Also, if it were Ice Hand destroyed, you still can't summon because you can't activate Ice Hand's effect at all. See Ghostrick Jackfrost vs Vanity's Emptiness.

Not true. Since you can resolve the hands fully without any special summoning you can resolve their destruction effects under Emptiness just fine.

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ensane    163

That's not what I said. I said you can't activate the effect. Did you read the whole post or just that sentence? I even gave the Jackfrost example so there wouldn't be any confusion.

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»Jeff Jones    13262

Fire Hand will destroy the monster. You cannot choose to special summon. After the chain resolves, Vanity will trigger its selfdestruction effect.

 

Ice Hand will destroy Vanity. You can choose to Special Summon.

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»Jeff Jones    13262

Yeah this makes no sense to me.

If "Jowgen the Spiritualist" is applying the "Neither player can Special Summon monsters." effect, the effect of "Ghostrick Jackfrost" that activates in hand cannot be activated. Also, if the effect of "Ghostrick Jackfrost" was activated, and then "Call of the Haunted" is activated in a Chain, Special Summoning"Jowgen the Spiritualist", the "You can change that opponent's monster to face-down Defense Position" effect will be applied, but the "Special Summon this card from your hand in face-down Defense Position." effect will be not applied. (The "Ghostrick Jackfrost" that cannot be Special Summoned remains in the hand.)

This implies that you can't activate any of Fire & Ice Hand's effects while Vanity/Jowgen is out.

but that doesn't make sense because:
 

AND IF YOU DO: <Do A, and if you do, do B>
Timeline: Considered simultaneous. Both happen at the same time.

Causation: A is required for B, but NOT vice-versa. If A does not happen, then stop. If B cannot happen, you still do A.

Basically, this phrase acts like “also” & “and” for Timeline purposes, but acts like “then” for Causation purposes.

Example: Memory of an Adversary (from Abyss Rising) says, in part:
When an opponent’s monster declares an attack: You take damage equal to the attacking monster’s ATK, and if you do, banish that monster.

Timing: When this effect resolves, taking damage and banishing the monster happen at the same time. Effects can be activated that happen “WHEN” you take damage, and effects can be activated that happen “WHEN” a monster is banished/leaves the field.

Causation: You have to take damage in order to banish the monster. If you can’t take damage because another effect prevents it, then you don’t banish the monster.


THEN: <Do A, then do B>
Timeline: B happens after A, even though they’re part of one card effect. These things happen in sequence, not simultaneously.

Causation: A is required for B, but NOT vice-versa. If A does not happen, then stop. If B cannot happen, you still do A.

Example: Heraldry Change (from Cosmo Blazer)
When an opponent’s monster declares an attack: Special Summon 1 “Heraldic Beast” monster from your hand, then end the Battle Phase.

Timing: After this card resolves, the last thing that happened was that you ended the Battle Phase. The last thing was NOT a monster being Summoned. Which means neither player can activate cards like Torrential Tribute that activate “WHEN” a monster is Summoned.

Causation: Summoning a “Heraldic Beast” is required in order to end the Battle Phase. If you can’t Summon for some reason, then you don’t end the Battle Phase. Suppose you activate this card, but then your opponent chains with something that causes you to discard the only “Heraldic Beast” you had in your hand. You can’t Summon anymore, so you stop resolving this card’s effect once you reach the “I can’t do that” part.


tl:dr "Then" effects and "And if you do" effects don't require B to happen for A to happen, but Jack's effect states that is not true for "And if you do" effects. Does that mean it's not true for "Then" effects?

 

 

Jackfrost Special Summon effect is not optional, so you WILL be attempting to Special Summon. Because you cannot Special Summon while Jowgen or Fossil Dyna is face-up, you cannot use Jackfrost.


Fire and Ice hand are optional Special Summons. Like Starlight Road vs Fossil Dyna

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ensane    163

 

post

Jackfrost Special Summon effect is not optional, so you WILL be attempting to Special Summon. Because you cannot Special Summon while Jowgen or Fossil Dyna is face-up, you cannot use Jackfrost.


Fire and Ice hand are optional Special Summons. Like Starlight Road vs Fossil Dyna

I suppose I should just shut the hell up then.

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TFJ    618

If the hands were not optional, could I attempt to activate their effects? I just want to understand.

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DK3    32

Nope, because when they destroyed a card, they would have to special summon the other hand, in that case, you couldnt activate their effect and pop a card

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IonCharge    691

If they were mandatory, they would have to activate, regardless of an effect which would prevent them from resolving. 

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TFJ    618


If they were mandatory, they would have to activate, regardless of an effect which would prevent them from resolving. 


Special summon, not destruction.

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TFJ    618
What if the special summon was mandatory if you chose to destroy something? Could I activate the destruction effect if Empytness is faceup and active.

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Dont Forget    609

What if the special summon was mandatory if you chose to destroy something? Could I activate the destruction effect if Empytness is faceup and active.

"It is like the hundreds on DN who attempt effects that they cannot. It is very important to read your cards. This was not a comprehension or difficult question. This was him simply not taking the time to know his card. He had a question and wanted to be spoonfed an answer." I could quote basically every word of yours from the other thread but just realize you are stupid for asking this after saying everything you said in the other one.

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IonCharge    691

What if the special summon was mandatory if you chose to destroy something? Could I activate the destruction effect if Empytness is faceup and active.

 

 

Yeah this makes no sense to me.

If "Jowgen the Spiritualist" is applying the "Neither player can Special Summon monsters." effect, the effect of "Ghostrick Jackfrost" that activates in hand cannot be activated. Also, if the effect of "Ghostrick Jackfrost" was activated, and then "Call of the Haunted" is activated in a Chain, Special Summoning"Jowgen the Spiritualist", the "You can change that opponent's monster to face-down Defense Position" effect will be applied, but the "Special Summon this card from your hand in face-down Defense Position." effect will be not applied. (The "Ghostrick Jackfrost" that cannot be Special Summoned remains in the hand.)

This implies that you can't activate any of Fire & Ice Hand's effects while Vanity/Jowgen is out.

but that doesn't make sense because:
 

AND IF YOU DO: <Do A, and if you do, do B>
Timeline: Considered simultaneous. Both happen at the same time.

Causation: A is required for B, but NOT vice-versa. If A does not happen, then stop. If B cannot happen, you still do A.

Basically, this phrase acts like “also” & “and” for Timeline purposes, but acts like “then” for Causation purposes.

Example: Memory of an Adversary (from Abyss Rising) says, in part:
When an opponent’s monster declares an attack: You take damage equal to the attacking monster’s ATK, and if you do, banish that monster.

Timing: When this effect resolves, taking damage and banishing the monster happen at the same time. Effects can be activated that happen “WHEN” you take damage, and effects can be activated that happen “WHEN” a monster is banished/leaves the field.

Causation: You have to take damage in order to banish the monster. If you can’t take damage because another effect prevents it, then you don’t banish the monster.


THEN: <Do A, then do B>
Timeline: B happens after A, even though they’re part of one card effect. These things happen in sequence, not simultaneously.

Causation: A is required for B, but NOT vice-versa. If A does not happen, then stop. If B cannot happen, you still do A.

Example: Heraldry Change (from Cosmo Blazer)
When an opponent’s monster declares an attack: Special Summon 1 “Heraldic Beast” monster from your hand, then end the Battle Phase.

Timing: After this card resolves, the last thing that happened was that you ended the Battle Phase. The last thing was NOT a monster being Summoned. Which means neither player can activate cards like Torrential Tribute that activate “WHEN” a monster is Summoned.

Causation: Summoning a “Heraldic Beast” is required in order to end the Battle Phase. If you can’t Summon for some reason, then you don’t end the Battle Phase. Suppose you activate this card, but then your opponent chains with something that causes you to discard the only “Heraldic Beast” you had in your hand. You can’t Summon anymore, so you stop resolving this card’s effect once you reach the “I can’t do that” part.


tl:dr "Then" effects and "And if you do" effects don't require B to happen for A to happen, but Jack's effect states that is not true for "And if you do" effects. Does that mean it's not true for "Then" effects?

 

 

Jackfrost Special Summon effect is not optional, so you WILL be attempting to Special Summon. Because you cannot Special Summon while Jowgen or Fossil Dyna is face-up, you cannot use Jackfrost.


Fire and Ice hand are optional Special Summons. Like Starlight Road vs Fossil Dyna

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TFJ    618
So we are saying activating the hands under emptyness is legal because the special summoning is optional.
If it was mandatory, then the effect could not be activated.

Then can someone explain this? Is it really just a KSS on delayed eggs or something.
http://duelistgroundz.com/index.php?showtopic=152042&view=&hl=&fromsearch=1

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