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Jazz

July 2002 - Critter Format

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Brandis72    10

Fissure was still a 3-of staple in just about everything due to just how weak the rest of the cardpool was; it was basically the main spell-based out to beatdown.

Solemn is amazing, but sometimes backfires, tools is quite good, and jammer is playable in aggro but otherwise questionable.

This was a pretty great retro control format and definitely ranks in the top 3 in that regard, alongside Goat and PCM.

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Jazz    4764

Fissure is totally meh. Fissure often gets magnetized to Sangan/Witch. The best thing you can hit is a beater, and for those you would prefer to use Trap Hole or Mirror Force anyway.

 

Tribute to the Doomed is a better card because it deals with threats that Fissure cannot.

 

Faith at 3 is fine. You blow through your power spells and recycle them. There are plenty of targets.

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Jazz    4764
18 minutes ago, rei said:

counter traps were really good. Fissure was "meh" 

 

Basically this

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Brandis72    10

eh... I get your point though; if you're sure that you'll only play against control, then you can make a good argument for fissure being playable at best.

Although in that case you'll definitely want to sideboard remaining copies of fissure/waboku because tempo/beatdown will both destroy you otherwise.

Faith at 3 is extremely questionable with decklists that play 10 or less spells; I mean, the card can brick pretty hard sometimes, or just be mediocre (adding tribute to out a beater and accumulating even more minuses). If you're going to play 3 faith, you should definitely main 3 fissure, two swords and some number of tributes to the doomed (probably one or two). Tribute is a decent card, but the minus can really get to you sometimes: the card is only playable because of MoF/Mask.

Trap Hole and Mirror are only four cards though... it helps to have additional removal, especially when dealing with a masked sorcerer with backrow to stop your attack, and you don't have stall afterwards.

One thing I don't get is why people like MEB so much: the card is just terrible in almost every single way, and it's only even remotely optimal when your opponent sets a flip in response to it.

 

Although the funny thing with this format is that every single decklist is basically a metagame, and tech choices almost create a triangle format... so you never really know ''what's best''. 

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+rei+    35451

The thing about running like ten spells is almost every one of them can tear the game open, they kinda  important

 

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Brandis72    10

Oh, I never denied that MoF was powerful; it's without a doubt the highest potential monster that isn't sangan/witch, but it can brick quite badly in triplicates in decks that don't play 13+ spells.

Hasn't it ever bricked in your experience? Or do you think that the power increase justifies the risk? Not to mention that if you really want it and either know or have read that your opponent doesn't have CoH you can just search it with sangan/witch... or you can set sangan with a power spell in grave to bait CoH and then tutor MoF when you feel safe.

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Jazz    4764

It's almost impossible to "brick" with faith. There are 7 spells you would be happy to retrieve and they are all playable almost immediately in the game. If you can survive 2 turns, you can set faith:

 

Pot, Raigeki, Dark Hold, Monster Reborn, Change of Heart, 2x Heavy Storm

 

You don't need more than that to justify 3 Faith. Throw in a couple copies of Fissure/TTTD and you're good to go.

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Brandis72    10

Alrighty, I suppose I'll try 3 faith again, maybe my bad hands were just the result of poorly done IRL power shuffling.

Also, another question: why the love for these weird tempo/control hybrids with both the goblin/wall engine AND the cookie control lineup?

Has that ever lead to mediocre hands/topdecks?

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Jazz    4764

I'm not sure what the cookie control lineup is. I just try to play good cards that work well together. There are some ok cards that simply do not work in the deck or are not worth the cost, thus I don't play them.

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Brandis72    10

The cookie control lineup is 1 tribute, 6 beaters (4 vanilla, 2 fatties), 4 advantage flips (MoF-Mask), 2 tempo monsters (Masked Sorcerer-White Magical Hat), and 4 floaters (sangan-witch).

Cookie Control seeks to win via good topdecks and card advantage, at the cost of slow monsters; SORL is a solid 2-of, and waboku is often played. There's one build with judgment and 1 build that focuses more on spells, but both are good.

 

The tempo lineup is 6 tempo monsters, 6 walls (Wall of Illusion/GSS), and 4 floaters.

Tempo seeks to win via fast card advantage, removing the opponent's hand and drawing more cards than normal... but it does this at the cost of topdecking quite poorly;

Robbing Goblin is the card that makes the deck viable, and is a needed 3-of, along with all the removal in the format to out beaters and deny your opponent access to monsters (Tribute/Fissure/Judgment/etc).

 

Beatdown is another aggressive deck with it's own lineup that mostly consists of tons of vanillas and witches, along with S/T negation to survive power spells. Soul Control also seems like it could be a viable control deck, but its vulnerability to judgment/trap hole makes me doubt that it'll ever be anywhere near tier 1.

Edited by Brandis72

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Jazz    4764

I think Summoned Skull, Masked Sorcerer, White Magical Hat, Jirai Gumo, Dark Elf, and Muka Muka are all trash. They all have severe drawbacks. Why do I need to play them at all? Why can't I make a "cookie control" deck without them?


Giant Soldier of Stone is simply a less effective version of Wall of Illusion in combination with Robbin Goblin. It's only redeeming quality is that it walls of Dark Elf, which I don't even think is all that good. I could also keep setting flip effect monsters and force my opponent who plays Elf to pay 1000 LP every turn just to keep me off the board. I do not feel the need to play GSS given that I have 2 Sangan that can search out Wall of Illusion. I supposed I can side GSS but there is nothing compelling me to main deck it.

 

I'm a little confused by the deck types you're using but not defining. I'm not sure what Soul Exchange has to do with Beatdown.

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Brandis72    10

Skull isn't a terrible 1-of seeing as you can search it and use it to answer elf-jirai/walls.

MS and WMH are powerful when backed up with traps, even though their standalone power leaves something to be desired.

Jirai-Elf are decent because they run over vanillas, and vanillas are highly played... they lose to sets, which is why you don't want to play many of them, and if your opponent does set, then just leave them there and pass: they already did their job, which was to +1 to a beater, or trade with trap hole.

GSS is a bad wall of illusion whose only real reason to be played is as walls 4-6.

Muka-Muka IS trash.

Soul Exchange has nothing to do with beatdown; I suppose I just poorly formulated my sentences. Beatdown is just a zoo-like deck that plays a bunch of beaters and doesn't even play around DHole/Raigeki because it uses triple solemn/magic jammer to ignore them, and Soul Exchange is a bad deck that tries to abuse soul exchange as a better tribute to the doomed (with Skull/Judge Man), otherwise using utility flips and floaters as advantage neutral tribute fodder.

I get where you're coming from, though. It's just that in my experience, synergy mattered a lot, and the ''bad'' cards actually make decks work better because it gives them a clear win-condition. You can't really play control-cookie cutter without techs (MSorcerer/Waboku, for example) because the cardpool is extremely bad and because anti-synergy (a tempo engine in a control deck, meaning that you can't fully capitalize off the advantage you just made with wall/goblin, all the while suffering from many of the topdeck issues induced by said tempo engine) arguably creates more damage than low card quality.

Maybe we should play some games together (I play my deck, you play yours 3/5 match, then repeat with opposite decks) just so I can see if my testing works just as well in an open environment, because the fact that you, a player of a far greater caliber than I probably am have a very different approach to deckbuilding in this format means that I probably goofed up somewhere along the line and never truly noticed it.

Edited by Brandis72

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Jazz    4764

Well the thing about MS / WMH is that you need to back them up with traps. If you use Robbin Goblin instead, you don't have to back anything up at all. All you need to do is avoid getting wrecked by Heavy Storm which is not that hard considering 3x Solemn + 2x Mask of Darkness.

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Brandis72    10

And my build plays 3 waboku/3 fissure/2 SORL, so MS gets more playable. IDK, it seems both our builds make sense ;).

Although Waboku/SORL seem weak, they're metagame choices against the other decks that I discovered... so that might explain why you'd see them as bad for your list.

Edited by Brandis72

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13 hours ago, Jazz said:

Fissure is totally meh. Fissure often gets magnetized to Sangan/Witch.

 

This is a good point.  2x Sangan could be worth siding in against decks that use 3x Fissure.

 

Quote

 

Tribute to the Doomed is a better card because it deals with threats that Fissure cannot.

 

How does card advantage risk of TttD play out in this format?  How is it compensated for.

 

Quote

Faith at 3 is fine. You blow through your power spells and recycle them. There are plenty of targets.

 

Right.  This is a Nobleman-less format.  The only thing that hurt Faith seems to be Dark Hole and Raigeki, and I just wouldn't set MOF if I already had 2 other monsters on the board.

 

7 hours ago, Jazz said:

I think Summoned Skull, Masked Sorcerer, White Magical Hat, Jirai Gumo, Dark Elf, and Muka Muka are all trash. They all have severe drawbacks. Why do I need to play them at all? Why can't I make a "cookie control" deck without them?

 

I mostly agree.  Gumo seems kind of pointless if you have a big beatstick but can't really apply pressure.  Dark Elf essentially negs you 800 LP in exchange for negging 1 opponent's card which is considerable.  I'd probably side Dark Elf against decks which run 3 La Jinn and 3 7 Colored.

 

Masked Sorcerer and White Magical Hat are borderline cards.  They're dead if you need board presence. They only plus if you attack twice with them because they get destroyed in battle.  Trap can protect them but, against Witch and Sangan, there's a loss either way.

 

Summoned Skull depends.  If the opponent is using 3 Trap Hole, 3 Solemn J and maybe a Horn of Heaven, no.  But against more conventional decks that rely on LV4 monsters with high stats, sure.  Worth siding.

 

Muka Muka seems to be too much of a turn 1 card for me.

 

Quote


Giant Soldier of Stone is simply a less effective version of Wall of Illusion in combination with Robbin Goblin. It's only redeeming quality is that it walls of Dark Elf, which I don't even think is all that good.

 

If I could run 4 Wall of Illusion, I wouldn't use Giant Soldier of Stone.  I find high DEF monsters safe for life point advantage since they're vulnerable to Main Phase 2 removal and not Main Phase 1 removal.

 

8 hours ago, Brandis72 said:

The cookie control lineup is 1 tribute, 6 beaters (4 vanilla, 2 fatties), 4 advantage flips (MoF-Mask), 2 tempo monsters (Masked Sorcerer-White Magical Hat), and 4 floaters (sangan-witch).

 

The tempo lineup is 6 tempo monsters, 6 walls (Wall of Illusion/GSS), and 4 floaters.

Tempo seeks to win via fast card advantage, removing the opponent's hand and drawing more cards than normal...

but it does this at the cost of topdecking quite poorly;

Robbing Goblin is the card that makes the deck viable

 

Beatdown is another aggressive deck with it's own lineup that mostly consists of tons of vanillas and witches, along with S/T negation to survive power spells. Soul Control also seems like it could be a viable control deck, but its vulnerability to judgment/trap hole makes me doubt that it'll ever be anywhere near tier 1.

 

Helpful writeup.

Edited by banefulscolumn

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Brandis72    10

... Why would you be siding sangans to begin with? ALL four of the floaters should be mainboarded in every single deck because of how bloody powerful they are.

Tribute might seem bad on paper but the card is good in this format because tempo is everything: ultra low monster ceiling combined with 4 guaranteed floaters means that you usually don't run out of cards even if you play -1 removal. In addition, this -1 removal is probably the only way to aggressively interact with flips (baiting flip summons with SJ should only be done if you're REALLY desperate).

Gumo is actually better than elf if you play SJ, because the LP loss straight up doesn't matter lategame and it's a good search with witch when you need to finish a grindy game. Otherwise 2 mainboarded elves is okay just as an out to the typical 4x vanilla.

Masked Sorcerer/White Magical Hat work best in their own dedicated deck (tempo) but are still decent tech in cookie, provided you play enough protection.

Edited by Brandis72

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