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Goat Format War League

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wonderPreaux    1408

i think elephant statue is for last turn decks, actually. neko mane king stops the combo turn

 

edit: @POLLUTEDxDELTA: how is playing a combo deck not skillful? it seems like navigating hate, operational proficiency, and game sense are all crucial skills you'd have to have. granted, the skill set might not be the same as a control mirror, and if your deck has 30+ blank cards against me I certainly might not be under the same pressure to play perfectly, but I feel like it's, at minimum, an exaggeration to say the success of combo isnt skill-dependent

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Jazz    5322

^meant to pos rate sorry

 

Also I do think it's kind of annoying that you would play empty jar of all decks, regardless of the ban list situation. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

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»ACP    33410

Yeah, I thought we were all on the same page. If everyone expects me to play Empty Jar they can just side a bunch of hate and beat me. I just want to drop a combo every once in awhile to keep people honest, ya feel me? Like ARG had some no-additional-bans goat tournaments and I don't think any combo decks topped. There might have been a reasoning/gate deck but I'm not sure.

 

I think it's kinda silly to ban empty jar but then not ban any of the other combo decks. If you want Jazz, I'll play some casual games with you so you can get your own impression of the deck.

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OD Superman    1122

I think the best solution is to reveal any in hand copies of said flip effect monster. I could make this the league policy if people agree. I really don't think revealing decks is fair or faithful to the actual April 2005 format. Of course, if you are playing a friend you can do whatever you want, but you're right we should all agree to an official policy.

 

I do not agree with this.

 

One of the main reasons to run 3 Faith (if you opt to, I mean) is so you can let the first get X-out'd, remove one from deck, and trip your opponent up by setting a card they have no reason to suspect is Faith.

 

Similarly, on the off chance I'm playing against someone and they're not paying attention to how many Faith/whatever I have in grave/RFG, I don't like the idea of reminding them of one of my in-hand cards.

 

It also ruins a lot of the surprise element when you're playing the flip-flop deck, which is just unfair.

 

I think it's better to just take a screenshot of your hand at the time of the NoC activation, and offer to show it after the game is over if it matters. That simulates, to me, what was once a very common tournament tactic, that is, to get a judge to independently verify no remaining copies of the card in deck.

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Jazz    5322
If I sided 3 Neko mane kings against it and that's it how often would I win a 3/5 match?
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»ACP    33410

Well I'm about a thousand times better than you, so you'd never win.

 

[spoiler]You'd win some matches. Empty Jar is also just prone to bad hands, like every other combo deck in the history of the game. Ironically enough, against ryuuzaki I opened a horrible hand: Spell Reproduction x2, Thunder Dragon, Dragged Down into the Grave, A Feather from the Phoenix, and Book of Moon. However, he set Morphing Jar t1, flipped it t2, and then I combo'd off using my opponent's Morphing Jar. There are also other things that might be in your board that would be incidentally good against me: Royal Oppression, Spell Shield Type-8, etc.[/spoiler]

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wonderPreaux    1408

If I sided 3 Neko mane kings against it and that's it how often would I win a 3/5 match?

That's kinda hard to answer, theres a ton of variables involved. when the king shows up, what your new 5 off of jar are, etc. not to mention you can just cyber jar the opponent up to a large hand size, then go card d + serial spell to deck them out, since mane wont trigger until the chain resolves.

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OD Superman    1122

Yeah, I thought we were all on the same page. If everyone expects me to play Empty Jar they can just side a bunch of hate and beat me. I just want to drop a combo every once in awhile to keep people honest, ya feel me? Like ARG had some no-additional-bans goat tournaments and I don't think any combo decks topped. There might have been a reasoning/gate deck but I'm not sure.

 

I think it's kinda silly to ban empty jar but then not ban any of the other combo decks. If you want Jazz, I'll play some casual games with you so you can get your own impression of the deck.

 

I don't mind the use of OTKs in a format where we play up to 4 games post-side. 

 

Back then, I only played against one mill OTK in a tournament setting. It was the final round at SJC Boston and I happened to get paired against the only trick deck left. I sided 3 Neko Mane King and won 2-0.

 

The deck is good, no doubt. But it's like any other deck: it can lose to itself and it can lose to good draws. And then there's really problematic cards, like Neko Mane King. Losing to Neko Mane King really depends on whether the opponent can capitalize on the turn they're given, and steal enough momentum on the turn they end. And that depends entirely on when you draw it. Allen's smart, I'm sure. He'll hold off using Card D, and maybe even Morphing Jar, as much as possible. But I can't imagine he's improving his chances vs. anyone by playing it, so I don't mind him choosing to.

 

I feel like Ryuu scooped mainly because his side deck didn't consist of anything anti-mill. If he did, I'm pretty sure the best Allen could have hoped for was a 3-2 victory, but it could've just as easily gone the other way around.

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»ACP    33410

Kris Perovic is in favor of allowing OTKs. Case closed.

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Jazz    5322
Ok after re-reading the past page or so, I have come to the conclusion that we should ban all OTKs and make Ryuu and Pennington replay each other. I didn't anticipate people abusing the format by playing OTK in only a handful of matches, but I guess I should have.

If anyone has a good argument against doing this, obviously post it now before I make the edit later tonight.

EDIT: To reiterate, the real problem is the fact that deck switching is allowed. What is to stop every player in this tournament from playing Empty Jar only when they play Player X? Is that fair to Player X? x could equal Perovic, CeilingxCat, whoever, somebody really good who you have a low chance of beating in a normal game, so you take the gamble of the OTK over the near assurance of getting out goat controlled, while you are free to use goat control against easier opponents.
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»Ryuuzaki    2545

lol

Like I said, he can have the win, but I definitely had no ideas OTKS weren't banned. I am partially to blame for being unprepared, but I honestly thought they got instant banned like most of the time when we conduct goat tournaments.

It's partially my fault for not reading the rules right. 

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Jazz    5322
If it gets banned there's no reason your game should not count. The question is should it get banned.

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»ACP    33410

Ok after re-reading the past page or so, I have come to the conclusion that we should ban all OTKs and make Ryuu and Pennington replay each other. I didn't anticipate people abusing the format by playing OTK in only a handful of matches, but I guess I should have.

If anyone has a good argument against doing this, obviously post it now before I make the edit later tonight.

EDIT: To reiterate, the real problem is the fact that deck switching is allowed. What is to stop every player in this tournament from playing Empty Jar only when they play Player X? Is that fair to Player X? x could equal Perovic, CeilingxCat, whoever, somebody really good who you have a low chance of beating in a normal game, so you take the gamble of the OTK over the near assurance of getting out goat controlled, while you are free to use goat control against easier opponents.

This entire post is a joke. First of all, even if you do ban OTKs from this point onward, you shouldn't retroactively invalidate matches that were within the rules at the time. That's just common sense, not with Yugioh but how rules work in general.

 

Playing OTK in a handful of matches is the same EV as playing them in all matches. How is that a problem? I didn't have some secret information that ryuuzaki wasn't boarding in hate cards. He could've boarded in 3 Royal Command 3 Neko Mane King and destroyed me. That's the risk that you take.

 

Obviously I can't prove it, but I think this whole situation was blown out proportion due to the fact that I specifically decided to play Empty Jar. I could be dead wrong, but after the all the shit that I've been through, you can't be surprised that I feel that way. Bitches have been hating on my OTK hustle since the day I was born, nah mean?

 

I would also like to remind that you that you have decided to ban all OTKs because one deck won one match. Look at the Smash community or the Pokemon community. Do you see them banning characters based on some emotional uproar instead of actually doing investigative work?

 

Apparently metagaming is now an unfair tactic in Yugioh. I was hoping I wouldn't regret playing some casual Yugioh with my DGz buddies after a year off, but I see once again that optimism has failed me.

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+Gojira    1706
I like the idea of no bans. The format is extremely deep, and we should have the option to explore that in a league setting.
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OD Superman    1122

Ok after re-reading the past page or so, I have come to the conclusion that we should ban all OTKs and make Ryuu and Pennington replay each other. I didn't anticipate people abusing the format by playing OTK in only a handful of matches, but I guess I should have.

If anyone has a good argument against doing this, obviously post it now before I make the edit later tonight.

 

Note that from here on out, everyone will side 3 Neko Mane King vs. everyone, no matter what (although they should have been doing this already). Also, when playing vs. Allen and trynet, I think most people will side like 5 for burn, 5 for Ben Kai, and 5 for mill, or whatever, just in case. It's annoying and cheesy and lame, sure, but these decks never did well for a reason. That reason was the side deck, and here we're making 80% of the games post-side instead of 67%. This can only hurt the OTK decks even more.

 

I mean, of the 14 matches Allen can possibly play, I'm absolutely confident he could do no better than 9-5 with mill, and I think that's worse than how he'd do if he just ran Goats. So I'm totally fine with him or whoever else throwing away their good sense to roll the dice with an OTK deck.

 

IMO it's sucks that Ryuu was expecting a quality goat match and didn't realize that not everyone else would come into this with the same expectation.

 

That said, if Ryuu opts to finish the remaining games, I'll personally vouch for the fact that his side deck consisted of 3 Neko Mane King, 3 Royal Command, and 3 Cursed Seal of the Forbidden Spell before he agreed to play Allen. ;)

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»ACP    33410

Perovic and I have listed several different reasons why OTK is fair in this environment, and overall, admittedly to my surprise, the majority of the community seems to be anywhere from hesitantly in favor to strongly in favor of continuing with the rules that were printed at the start of the league.

 

The opposition consists of "but I don't like playing against OTKs."

 

I think the decision to make here is fairly obvious at this point.

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Jazz    5322
We really should have debated this before we started I'm really sorry about that. Allen please don't take it personally at all. My thinking was that if we change the rules after 1 round that's really bizarre. Either play the whole tournament with OTK or none of it.

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TFJ    618
I don't want to play OTK but.

A. Get Vice Captain Sandals to vote. That is the whole war council.
B. Ban OTK in play offs. Or is that unfair to let them cheese their way to play offs then play a good deck.

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Jazz    5322

I like the idea of no bans. The format is extremely deep, and we should have the option to explore that in a league setting.

 

This is exactly why I suggested no bans in the first place. I thought it would be really interesting. But if the entire league devolves to 20% of matches involving OTKs and rampant complaining then this experiment is not worth it to me. It gets interesting for the wrong reasons (i.e. added drama).

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Jazz    5322

I don't want to play OTK but.

A. Get Vice Captain Sandals to vote. That is the whole war council.
B. Ban OTK in play offs. Or is that unfair to let them cheese their way to play offs then play a good deck.

 

It's not a war council decision. The war council resolves disputes about the rules, not what the rules are.

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Jazz    5322
This topic now contains a poll. Vote on the question of whether to allow OTKs. You have exactly 5 hours to vote from this post.

EDIT, you can keep voting forever and change your vote whenever, fuck that arbitrary time limit.

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+Urthor    10210

 

People who vote yes in the poll should read: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html

 
Only members of the league count, obviously. Don't vote if you are not playing.

 

You should read!


Considering he's talking about the legitimate mindset of how you approach competitive play in tournaments that legalise that playstyle, idg what your point is.

 

 

Saying "alt win is bad for game design and a bad way to run our tournament as tournament organisers" doesn't conflict with that core idea of Sirlin's at all.  

 

You should read!  You'd understand that the underlying perspective from which he's writing is that of a player with no influence over the policies of how a tournament or game is run/managed.

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