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Goat Format War League

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+Gojira    1706


I just always thought a banning on 'otks' or combo decks would lead to a lot of complications. Like ok I won't run mass driver, but what if I used a deck based around dmoc+dimension fusion to make huge pushes in one turn and gain advantage? Where do you draw the line, unless you want to ban specific cards? Like others have said, the format is sufficiently deep to allow for some fun experimentation, and it would be cool if we somehow broke goat format a second time (ironically I actually think that almost all the good goat options have been sufficiently explored so the chances of that are very low but whatever lol). Since goat mirror doesn't require too much siding, there is more than enough room to dedicate to neko mane kings or whatever, and the consistency of these deck is massively exaggerated anyway. So yeah even though I am not in this league due to time constraints I don think you should ban anything

I have no stance on this. But Jazz's point is the OTK does not need to be consistent. You aren't forced to use it unless you want to. And he is afraid that players would pick it to knock out a better player.

In a sense they are taking a suicide bomb deck for one round of swiss while playing every other round normal. And in that case OTK can look attractive.
 


While this is possible, side decks of those "better players" should accommodate for the degenerate decks, and should therefore be able to beat them. Also, in a real tournament, you could have a combo deck that players' side decks are unprepared for, and do well in the tournament. Here, if you use a good combo once, people will side for it in the future. So combos are only good for a surpise factor that one time, and have to actually be consistently good if they are to succeed in any other matches.

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+Gojira    1706


Perovic and I recorded some casual games of Empty Jar vs standard goats. G1 I combo'd off and killed him, g2 he crushed my dick not close, then g3 I would've won if he hadn't cheated me with illegal Call of the Haunted combos and I didn't realize until after. I'll upload to Youtube if you guys want.
 
tl;dr: get on perovic's level, faggots

 
Well I'm sure there was a nicer way to say that last part, but lookin forward to the upload.
 
PS what are the known counters, we should tell people this bc nobody fucking talks about this ever and even I, digger up of crazy ygo information from the archives, dont want to sift through all that mess. I don't have the time right now, especially with managing this league.
 


It's really not hard to figure out the best counters, the card pool isn't that big. Neko mane king does a good job of keeping them from otk'ing, you just have to be able to follow it up.

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Jazz    5322

I think the best solution is to reveal any in hand copies of said flip effect monster. I could make this the league policy if people agree. I really don't think revealing decks is fair or faithful to the actual April 2005 format. Of course, if you are playing a friend you can do whatever you want, but you're right we should all agree to an official policy.

 

I do not agree with this.

 

One of the main reasons to run 3 Faith (if you opt to, I mean) is so you can let the first get X-out'd, remove one from deck, and trip your opponent up by setting a card they have no reason to suspect is Faith.

 

Similarly, on the off chance I'm playing against someone and they're not paying attention to how many Faith/whatever I have in grave/RFG, I don't like the idea of reminding them of one of my in-hand cards.

 

It also ruins a lot of the surprise element when you're playing the flip-flop deck, which is just unfair.

 

I think it's better to just take a screenshot of your hand at the time of the NoC activation, and offer to show it after the game is over if it matters. That simulates, to me, what was once a very common tournament tactic, that is, to get a judge to independently verify no remaining copies of the card in deck.

 

I 100% get your point, but I am concerned about the practicality of taking the screenshots and checking after the fact. What happens if it happens more than once? How are you supposed to even remember the exact situation--matches can potentially last 2 hours? How long will this process take? And what happens if you think your opponent cheated you? What happens if your opponent forgets to show you the screenshots before they leave or if they accidentally close the screenshot window?

 

I think revealing in hand flips, while not ideal for the correct reasons you stated, is the lesser of all evils.

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Jazz    5322

Also, what happens if someone makes 8 different OTK decks and rotates through each one randomly? Is that ok with you guys?

 

I think you are all underestimating Pennington's ability to exploit loopholes and quirks. (Pennington, take no offense I am not picking on you, just using you as the most likely example)

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OD Superman    1122

Perovic and I recorded some casual games of Empty Jar vs standard goats. G1 I combo'd off and killed him, g2 he crushed my dick not close, then g3 I would've won if he hadn't cheated me with illegal Call of the Haunted combos and I didn't realize until after. I'll upload to Youtube if you guys want.

 

tl;dr: get on perovic's level, faggots

 

Well I'm sure there was a nicer way to say that last part, but lookin forward to the upload.

 

PS what are the known counters, we should tell people this bc nobody fucking talks about this ever and even I, digger up of crazy ygo information from the archives, dont want to sift through all that mess. I don't have the time right now, especially with managing this league.

 

Here are some cards you could use off the top of my head:

Gravekeeper's Watcher

Neko Mane King

Spell Canceller

Prohibition

Anti-Spell Fragrance (nice with Mobius the Frost Monarch)

Chain Disappearance

Ceasefire

Compulsory Evacuation Device

Curse of Darkness

Cursed Seal of the Forbidden Spell

Divine Wrath

Light of Intervention

Phoenix Wing Wind Blast

Raigeki Break

Royal Command

Skill Drain

Spell Shield Type-8

Solemn Judgment

 

Note the deck runs 3 Trunade though.

 

Also, not setting monsters unnecessarily will stop them from using Shallow Grave (unless they have Dragged Down or Card D). And keeping as few S/Ts in hand will reduce the size of a starting Card D play.

 

 

I think the best solution is to reveal any in hand copies of said flip effect monster. I could make this the league policy if people agree. I really don't think revealing decks is fair or faithful to the actual April 2005 format. Of course, if you are playing a friend you can do whatever you want, but you're right we should all agree to an official policy.

 

I do not agree with this.

 

One of the main reasons to run 3 Faith (if you opt to, I mean) is so you can let the first get X-out'd, remove one from deck, and trip your opponent up by setting a card they have no reason to suspect is Faith.

 

Similarly, on the off chance I'm playing against someone and they're not paying attention to how many Faith/whatever I have in grave/RFG, I don't like the idea of reminding them of one of my in-hand cards.

 

It also ruins a lot of the surprise element when you're playing the flip-flop deck, which is just unfair.

 

I think it's better to just take a screenshot of your hand at the time of the NoC activation, and offer to show it after the game is over if it matters. That simulates, to me, what was once a very common tournament tactic, that is, to get a judge to independently verify no remaining copies of the card in deck.

 

I 100% get your point, but I am concerned about the practicality of taking the screenshots and checking after the fact. What happens if it happens more than once? How are you supposed to even remember the exact situation--matches can potentially last 2 hours? How long will this process take? And what happens if you think your opponent cheated you? What happens if your opponent forgets to show you the screenshots before they leave or if they accidentally close the screenshot window?

 

I think revealing in hand flips, while not ideal for the correct reasons you stated, is the lesser of all evils.

 

1. Screenshots open in a new window. They're in your browser history, in chronological order. 
2. This is literally a problem, like, never, and I don't see the point in revealing whether I run 1 Faith or 3 Faith to someone who expects me to run 2. That can literally change whether or not they NoC my next set.

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Matt Bishop    2377

To be honest, I feel we should just go with the honor system for NoC'd sets unless you guys really want to take screenshots.  Like most of us are playing this for fun, or at least I am.  It becomes not fun when you have to cheat to win.  Solution, don't.

 

I hate otks, but I'm fine with whatever everyone else wants.

 

And on for games as well.

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Jazz    5322

Matt that's a really good point. NoC is officially honor system and you cannot check your opponent's deck. I am adding this to OP.

 

[refer to Rules - Card Rulings: #7 if your opponent argues with you on this]

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+rei+    34637

banning decks in the vbest format is a joke get better scrubs

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+rei+    34637

(debate over)

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Jazz    5322

^Is that rei or confuse rei? I double taked on that.

 

 

Here are some cards you could use off the top of my head:

Gravekeeper's Watcher

Neko Mane King

Spell Canceller

Prohibition

Anti-Spell Fragrance (nice with Mobius the Frost Monarch)

Chain Disappearance

Ceasefire

Compulsory Evacuation Device

Curse of Darkness

Cursed Seal of the Forbidden Spell

Divine Wrath

Light of Intervention

Phoenix Wing Wind Blast

Raigeki Break

Royal Command

Skill Drain

Spell Shield Type-8

Solemn Judgment

 

Note the deck runs 3 Trunade though.

 

Also, not setting monsters unnecessarily will stop them from using Shallow Grave (unless they have Dragged Down or Card D). And keeping as few S/Ts in hand will reduce the size of a starting Card D play.

 

Also, yes, Gravekeeper's Watcher, thank you. I knew there was another relevant card in addition to neko mane that activates from your hand on opp's turn.

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+Gojira    1706

For win percentage do you mean War win percentage or match win percentage?

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Jazz    5322

For win percentage do you mean War win percentage or match win percentage?

War win percentage. I will clarify that my bad.
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Jazz    5322

We're about to duel. Captain vs captain, shit's going down:
 
HkIYJE6.png


Looking back on it this post should have been a dead giveaway that Allen was up to no good. Look at that empty deck in the bg of the chat lol
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wonderPreaux    1408

Perovic and I recorded some casual games of Empty Jar vs standard goats. G1 I combo'd off and killed him, g2 he crushed my dick not close, then g3 I would've won if he hadn't cheated me with illegal Call of the Haunted combos and I didn't realize until after. I'll upload to Youtube if you guys want.

 

tl;dr: get on perovic's level, faggots

I'd be interested to see the matches. It'd actually be cool to just see demo matches of a variety of combo decks vs goats either in BO3 or BO5. I feel like if people got to see Empty Jar, Monster Gate Aggro, Mass Driver combo etc actually used and see the limitations and potential, it would raise people's awareness and maybe remove some of the stigma. Obv it would take some people with decent skills and time on their hands, though.

 

[spoiler]while on the subject of requesting uploads, when's the next fruit review, acp?[/spoiler]

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+mmf    23488

Also, what happens if someone makes 8 different OTK decks and rotates through each one randomly? Is that ok with you guys?
 
I think you are all underestimating Pennington's ability to exploit loopholes and quirks. (Pennington, take no offense I am not picking on you, just using you as the most likely example)

so is there something wrong with rewarding that kind of deckbuilding?

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Faint    5839

Empty Jar is a bitch to play against, but if you side in 3 GK watcher and 3 Neko Mane King then it becomes fucking annoying for your opponent to play against you. 

 

OTKs were never consistently top 8 for a reason, but I think the point being made is the reason as to why we play goat format in the first place - for the goat vs goat mirrors, the patience and skill level required tops anything from any yugioh format since, and gives us all a great sense of nostalgia and enjoyment. Playing vs an OTK effectively ruins that, regardless of whether you win or lose - therefore what's the point of playing in the first place? 

 

If I wanted to "play to win" I'd play current format, but I play goat format because I enjoy it more - simple. 

 

If you wanna use an OTK deck that's fine - you're just a massive asshole for doing so. 

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+rei+    34637

if youre playing a format with the expectation of only seeing one deck you miss both the point of the format and the skill involved

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+rei+    34637

I AM SORRY I RUN BEAST AGGRO IN GOAT FORMAT RUINING YOUR PERFECTLY HONED ONE DECK FORMAT

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+Paraliel+    8030

"hosting 1400+ no synchro/fusion, exodia, empty jar, or meta"

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-L2theZ-    1611


I AM SORRY I RUN BEAST AGGRO IN GOAT FORMAT RUINING YOUR PERFECTLY HONED ONE DECK FORMAT


Nobody is complaining about Beast Aggro, Zombies, etc. If you're playing one of those I'm still playing yugioh. With OTKs I'm not really playing anything resembling Goat format anymore, and if I wanted to do that I'd just go play the current format.
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+Paraliel+    8030

There is a lot more to a format than just dumbing it down to mirrors of one deck. It's not like Empty Jar is hard to beat if you are competent. Your deck building skill matters far less when there is only one deck to consider.

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OTK/solitaire decks aren't fun to play against. Hell, I get annoyed by those tsuku/ mask loops and those are slow as fuck. I can see the arguments on both sides, but fact remains, goat format exists because of one reason above all others, to have fun. I know that's shocking for a lot of you but that's how it is. Let's use an appropriate situation, if we played traditional, how many of you would play scientist/exchange if given the option? How many would detest playing against decks that don't give you a chance/rely on hand traps? That's similar to playing empty jar in this format. Interaction, real interaction is important and it's one of the greatest things I enjoy about this format. Going back to all this, I don't agree with Jazz changing the rules up because everybody save ryuuzaki knew what they were getting into and that would compromise the tournaments integrity
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ok im not reading page 3 but i joine under the impression that I'd be able to play under the exact format of the time to have a more authentic warring experience. I have absolutely no experience against degenerate decks of the time, however if they werent tier 0, dominant factors then, I don't get why people are making such a big deal about them now. 

 

I actually would love to NOT play goat mirrors every round, but that's just me

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»PSK    4447
These aren't casual goat games though. It's a competition based around the goat format. If people want to play Beastdown because they feel it gives them an advantage against the majority of decks in the tournament, then they should be allowed, just as someone wanting to play OTK based decks should be allowed if they believe it to be their optimal choice (Even if this means switching between goat and combo to keep opposition honest). No one has any obligation to play a fun deck or to abide by some unwritten rule. You play to win.
Similarly entrants should have been aware of the rules involved before signing up. If OTKs were banned from this point, you also hurt the players that wished to play the format in its full depth rather than just goat mirrors.
There is nothing preventing the creation of a no OTK goat tournament in future and people who wish to sign up for that type of environment may do so, but this tournament was advertised as OTK-viable and should remain that way.
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like just play the actual list. build an actual side deck and do the whole format (unless the actual format actually sucked and only the goat mirror was good but I really don't believe that to be the case)

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