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NAWCQ 2014

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Slashtap    2351

Regarding the Sean Coovert thing: Read Matt Cashiola's (tolarian academy's) post.  It is a one-for-one description of Coovert.  He plays Yugioh in this imaginary universe where not getting caught by the judges is an actual in-game mechanic and skill to be exercised.  He is on this entirely different plane of thinking from your typical cheater.  I don't know what cheaters think, but I imagine it's along the lines of, "This is wrong, but I'm going to do it because I value winning over my integrity."  Sean doesn't even see it that way.  He thinks more like, "This is a move I can do that's part of the rules of the game I've created, and not getting caught doing it is a part of the skillfulness of that move."  If you take a look at the Red-Eyes under Zombie World scenario and the hostility the cheater had toward Matt for calling him out, that's exactly how Sean behaves.  And it should go without saying, but to be clear I'm not the type to say something like this if it's a he-said/she-said deal.  I witnessed this firsthand.  The exact story has to do with him banishing Rescue Rabbit under Iron Wall, and then trying to get me banned when I called the judges on him for it, and then trying to get the judges to ALLOW HIS PLAY because his opponent "didn't say anything."  If you have the patience to scroll back to my posts from spring 2013, you'll find the full story.

 

Regarding the ban list thing: In MtG they have this thing called the Jedi Curve.  Rather than explain it myself, you can look it up.  It's easier to define when you have a resource-based game, but in Ygo there still is such a curve; it's just that it isn't based on mana cost.  One of the simplest standards for the Yugioh curve is that good effects should be balanced by weaker stats.  Felgrand is above the curve because it's Breakthrough on stilts.  The problem with a card like Geargiarmor, like you mentioned, is that its defense beats the normal summon attack barrier in just about every format, its effect is recurrent, and it dodges too many mechanics.  For instance, Whirlwind at 3 is super fair because you have to pair it with a monster AND that monster has to summon successfully AND that monster has to be face-up at resolution AND Whirlwind has to be face-up at resolution just for it to pay for itself and break even.  Meanwhile, Armor dodges all the viable and commonly used strategies that would stop it.  These kinds of truths are visible within a vacuum, which is why Pat had it on his list during a time when the deck was asleep and had no impact.  Pat favored Pot because a complex gamestate that gives both players several options is more likely going to result in the better player winning.  However, Pot cannot come back right now because there are too many "don't play Yugioh" strategies that Pot would accelerate on first turn bases.  An oversimplified way I would put it is: Pot is good in a format when both players have a chance to make decisions with the cards it draws.  This year, Matt has also converted me to a philosophy that the vast majority of cards should not be semi-limited and that anything at 2 should just be at 3 or 1.  The more I've marinated on this, the more I like it.  My new personal rule is that a card belongs at 2 if it does something specifically different in multiples; it has to interact with itself.

 

Ugin: I really don't know what to tell you.  I became lonelier in this game when I climbed the local ladder and others seemed less interested to do so with me (even if they were interested in success on the results side).  Making friends at premier events is a good place to start.  I should also clarify that I'm not saying there is NO ONE out there to converse and get better with.  "An audience that does not yet exist" means that the totality of the hive is not ready for what some of the writers want to say, but not literally each and every player.  There are, of course, many individuals who are, and they may even be at your locals, so keep looking.  "The audience is not ready" is just a general statement about the community's attitude on average; there are still many many people who are at that place you want to be.  Ideas like Mike/Sam not running BLS in Agents, Pat stopping using Dark Hole altogether as far back as Wind-Ups, Upstart in everything, just take a long time for the hive to warm up to.  In my most recent article the most common criticism I received was that there was no MST in the main or side.  I can only imagine how long it will take for the majority to start accepting ideas like this.  And while it's true, like you said, that theorycrafting is often kept in private circles, there are still many things we'd be happy to share but just can't because the audience hasn't yet accepted the prerequisite thing we shared.  This is why I felt no urge to correct the many people who talked about how bad Sylvan was and their LSR matchup was in deck discussion, and likely why Mike's group didn't bother so much about Kuribandit.

 

This image Sam sent me sums it up for me.

 

tumblr_maekkiLk611rgbzb0o1_500.jpg

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DNastyKuriboh    465

 

in magic, needless to say, this just doesn't happen. if it does, we laugh at the person, and if it happens again, they're out of the tournament/store. done. end of story. no intra-store politics about "this team will stop attending this local unless you let this banned known cheater play in your tournament again," no fierce ethical debate over whether or not it's the cheater's fault or if everyone else should "just be smarter and more alert." we simply don't have to debate about this sort of thing. and it's fucking awesome. maybe yugioh will get to this point some day if we get more vicious about calling out cheaters. unfortunately, this would probably mean shitting on more than a few duelists who i like, respect, and even consider my friends. that's the price of having a cleaner game, and it's up to every individual player to decide whether it's a price worth paying. 

 

@Tolarian- The intrastore policy is a big deal that some store owners have to deal with. Especially with things like rulings and cheating.
@Slash- As far as comments like "That audience doesn't exist yet", I dont know if such an audience will ever exist, especially in Yugioh. It is almost just not a part of the culture, unless it changes and is transformed over time.
@Ugin- My friends tell me that they thing this fabled "higher theory circle of Yugioh" is pompous and conceited. While I understand how they could feel that way, I feel as if I it just difficult for them to explain things to people who don't the aptitude nor patience to learn and listen, and that is if they decide they even want to open their mind to such ideals. It is truly lonely at the top.

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~NettLEs~    73

Regarding the ban list thing: In MtG they have this thing called the Jedi Curve.  Rather than explain it myself, you can look it up.  It's easier to define when you have a resource-based game, but in Ygo there still is such a curve; it's just that it isn't based on mana cost.  One of the simplest standards for the Yugioh curve is that good effects should be balanced by weaker stats.  Felgrand is above the curve because it's Breakthrough on stilts.  The problem with a card like Geargiarmor, like you mentioned, is that its defense beats the normal summon attack barrier in just about every format, its effect is recurrent, and it dodges too many mechanics.  For instance, Whirlwind at 3 is super fair because you have to pair it with a monster AND that monster has to summon successfully AND that monster has to be face-up at resolution AND Whirlwind has to be face-up at resolution just for it to pay for itself and break even.  Meanwhile, Armor dodges all the viable and commonly used strategies that would stop it.  These kinds of truths are visible within a vacuum, which is why Pat had it on his list during a time when the deck was asleep and had no impact.  Pat favored Pot because a complex gamestate that gives both players several options is more likely going to result in the better player winning.  However, Pot cannot come back right now because there are too many "don't play Yugioh" strategies that Pot would accelerate on first turn bases.  An oversimplified way I would put it is: Pot is good in a format when both players have a chance to make decisions with the cards it draws.  This year, Matt has also converted me to a philosophy that the vast majority of cards should not be semi-limited and that anything at 2 should just be at 3 or 1.  The more I've marinated on this, the more I like it.  My new personal rule is that a card belongs at 2 if it does something specifically different in multiples; it has to interact with itself.

That's really interesting. The concept of the Jedi Curve seems like something that a lot of people know in the back of their heads and just can't really put into words.

 

I've been messing around with Goat Format lately, and PoG certainly does seems to match your description of encouraging interaction. There aren't really floodgates as far as my 4 days of playing around with it have seen (unless you count Wanghu).

 

As for the philosophy that cards at 2 should go to 3 or 1, that makes quite a bit of sense now that I think about it. It makes sense for Chain Strike, Summoner Monk, Necroface, and Tengu to be at 2, but some cards on there like Trag, Sorc, etc really do seem better off at 3.

 

One more question for you (or Pat): How easy is it for you to discern whether something has been changed on the official list to push sales as opposed to create a healthy gamestate? As far as I can see, RotA going to 2 is a way to push Tellarknights and Noble Knights, Goyo and Formula might be ways to push Yang Zing, etc. Or is it the case that these changes both improve the state of the game as well as push sales?

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»Pharaoh Atem    15833

zizek once said


holy shit someone on DG other than me knows zizek

I bet this post is entirely on target, reading rest now
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»Pharaoh Atem    15833
edit: it was on target

new Atem policy

if you want to stay on DG, you will not let yourself look like a player who doesn't want a cleaner game
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iNetdeck    102

I call out cheaters, even if they're friends. One of my friends at a regional, while watching his game, tried to Ranga Zero a defense mode monster. The opponent wasn't going to catch it, and I told him he couldn't do that. He was a little upset with me. His reasoning was "If they don't notice.." and another friend said "wow why would you do that in a regional duel, I would've never done that to him". Idc. I lose because of fair play yet watch a ton of people win due to cheating.

 

Also, another story, friend's friend was helping the kid cheat by looking  at opponents hands and texting it to him (people who went to the SA regional know this, it was announced), and only the kid who was texting got banned. One of the workers reasoning for letting the other kid stay, "I don't want to ban you and screw you out of your nats invite/trip to nats".

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»Pharaoh Atem    15833

Regarding the ban list thing: In MtG they have this thing called the Jedi Curve.  Rather than explain it myself, you can look it up.  It's easier to define when you have a resource-based game, but in Ygo there still is such a curve; it's just that it isn't based on mana cost.  One of the simplest standards for the Yugioh curve is that good effects should be balanced by weaker stats.  Felgrand is above the curve because it's Breakthrough on stilts.  The problem with a card like Geargiarmor, like you mentioned, is that its defense beats the normal summon attack barrier in just about every format, its effect is recurrent, and it dodges too many mechanics.  For instance, Whirlwind at 3 is super fair because you have to pair it with a monster AND that monster has to summon successfully AND that monster has to be face-up at resolution AND Whirlwind has to be face-up at resolution just for it to pay for itself and break even.  Meanwhile, Armor dodges all the viable and commonly used strategies that would stop it.  These kinds of truths are visible within a vacuum, which is why Pat had it on his list during a time when the deck was asleep and had no impact.  Pat favored Pot because a complex gamestate that gives both players several options is more likely going to result in the better player winning.  However, Pot cannot come back right now because there are too many "don't play Yugioh" strategies that Pot would accelerate on first turn bases.  An oversimplified way I would put it is: Pot is good in a format when both players have a chance to make decisions with the cards it draws.  This year, Matt has also converted me to a philosophy that the vast majority of cards should not be semi-limited and that anything at 2 should just be at 3 or 1.  The more I've marinated on this, the more I like it.  My new personal rule is that a card belongs at 2 if it does something specifically different in multiples; it has to interact with itself.


this is alright, and well said. I'd add notes that at times those opposed to prosecuting Armor would want people to at least attempt pushing on the NS ATK curve: monsters exist above that curve, and they all suffer for it, but there were eras where several of them held adequate premise. There's always a question of how to best go about restoring a smidge of that premise.

It's also worth thinking of YGO as having a sort of mana curve - the NS being part of it, and Summons that either consume an NS or a prior-NS'd-mon as consuming mana - and once we think of it as such, we see the Special Summon for its true depravity as a mechanical function.

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»Pharaoh Atem    15833

I call out cheaters, even if they're friends. One of my friends at a regional, while watching his game, tried to Ranga Zero a defense mode monster. The opponent wasn't going to catch it, and I told him he couldn't do that. He was a little upset with me. His reasoning was "If they don't notice.." and another friend said "wow why would you do that in a regional duel, I would've never done that to him". Idc. I lose because of fair play yet watch a ton of people win due to cheating.
 
Also, another story, friend's friend was helping the kid cheat by looking  at opponents hands and texting it to him (people who went to the SA regional know this, it was announced), and only the kid who was texting got banned. One of the workers reasoning for letting the other kid stay, "I don't want to ban you and screw you out of your nats invite/trip to nats".


if someone would cheat at ygo I'd honestly expect them to cheat me IRL in something important, like trying to sleep with my woman

ygo is small potatoes, peeps who cheat at small potatoes are peeps with zero respect for the time and effort you put into things

also, that worker is a pussy.
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Slashtap    2351

 

Regarding the ban list thing: In MtG they have this thing called the Jedi Curve.  Rather than explain it myself, you can look it up.  It's easier to define when you have a resource-based game, but in Ygo there still is such a curve; it's just that it isn't based on mana cost.  One of the simplest standards for the Yugioh curve is that good effects should be balanced by weaker stats.  Felgrand is above the curve because it's Breakthrough on stilts.  The problem with a card like Geargiarmor, like you mentioned, is that its defense beats the normal summon attack barrier in just about every format, its effect is recurrent, and it dodges too many mechanics.  For instance, Whirlwind at 3 is super fair because you have to pair it with a monster AND that monster has to summon successfully AND that monster has to be face-up at resolution AND Whirlwind has to be face-up at resolution just for it to pay for itself and break even.  Meanwhile, Armor dodges all the viable and commonly used strategies that would stop it.  These kinds of truths are visible within a vacuum, which is why Pat had it on his list during a time when the deck was asleep and had no impact.  Pat favored Pot because a complex gamestate that gives both players several options is more likely going to result in the better player winning.  However, Pot cannot come back right now because there are too many "don't play Yugioh" strategies that Pot would accelerate on first turn bases.  An oversimplified way I would put it is: Pot is good in a format when both players have a chance to make decisions with the cards it draws.  This year, Matt has also converted me to a philosophy that the vast majority of cards should not be semi-limited and that anything at 2 should just be at 3 or 1.  The more I've marinated on this, the more I like it.  My new personal rule is that a card belongs at 2 if it does something specifically different in multiples; it has to interact with itself.

That's really interesting. The concept of the Jedi Curve seems like something that a lot of people know in the back of their heads and just can't really put into words.

 

I've been messing around with Goat Format lately, and PoG certainly does seems to match your description of encouraging interaction. There aren't really floodgates as far as my 4 days of playing around with it have seen (unless you count Wanghu).

 

As for the philosophy that cards at 2 should go to 3 or 1, that makes quite a bit of sense now that I think about it. It makes sense for Chain Strike, Summoner Monk, Necroface, and Tengu to be at 2, but some cards on there like Trag, Sorc, etc really do seem better off at 3.

 

One more question for you (or Pat): How easy is it for you to discern whether something has been changed on the official list to push sales as opposed to create a healthy gamestate? As far as I can see, RotA going to 2 is a way to push Tellarknights and Noble Knights, Goyo and Formula might be ways to push Yang Zing, etc. Or is it the case that these changes both improve the state of the game as well as push sales?

 

 

Strike, Monk, Face don't fit.  Going back to my definition that the semi-limited category can be reserved for cards that interact with themselves in multiples, we can see that a card like Tengu is a good candidate for 2 since it does something unique at 3.  Same can be said about Reckless, as it does something emergent in multiples.  Strike doesn't fit that (I'd put it at 1), Monk doesn't fit that (3, it really just sucks), and Face doesn't fit that (3, unless someone can identify something it uniquely does in multiples).

 

For the latter question, my comment is that evaluating cards is useful not just in-game but when dealing with the market.  Two great examples from recent history.  I made 1000% return on Different Dimension Ground at nats.  Two years ago someone hyped the card up on here and on ARG (I think Mike).  I bought out Troll and Toad at 79 cents each.  After trading some away and keeping a set for myself, I had 23 copies that I sold for $7 each to a vendor booth this past weekend.  How do I know not to hold it and speculate on an additional rise?  Because the card just sucks.  If I were just a vendor, I might not be able to see that.  I would probably think, "this card can only go up once Shaddolls come out."  But no.  The card's price does not match its power level, and that dictates to me when to move them.  Goyo is another good and recent example.  Goyo is actually just not good.  I mean, yes it's good in fundamental YGO decks, but most formats are just not about fundamental YGO, and most decks that can make Goyo are not about fundamental YGO.  For example, I can make Goyo easily in LSR.  But is it good?  Not really.  I'm going to spend Lumina + Minerva on Alucard to advance my win condition, not Goyo to play grind game Yugioh with you.  But the banlists always produce hype, and this is always a great opportunity for those who can evaluate how good a card is against its secondary market price to decide on whether to pick up or move.  Just after the ban list was announced, moving Goyo was a great play.  It can only go down as the rest of the hive realizes it's bad and the market catches up to reflect this understanding.

 

ROTA is at 2 because it helps lots of decks, not because of specific decks you mentioned.  I don't agree with this change, or the reasoning Konami gave, but that was the reasoning they gave me.  I responded with, "But it helps people summon Ophion and Shi En more, and they don't allow Yugioh."  His response was, "But there's only one Shi En."  Not to paint them in a bad light.  I actually liked most of the things he said; this was one of the few things I disagreed on.

 

More on the "audience not being ready."  Today when Pat's article went up, before I even clicked expand comments on fb, I told my friend who doesn't play Yugioh, "Watch, every comment will be ignorant."  Sure enough, what do we have here?  "Fagtrick Hoban."  "Heard he got a loss for slowplaying."  "He's so fat and ugly and unbearable."  "hobans a douche"  How many comments do you see deliberating the actual theory?  This is what Matt means by the audience not existing (on a holistic level, of course there are many eager learners who are ready on a individual basis).

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~NettLEs~    73

I mentioned Strike because it, activated multiple times in the same Chain, significantly advances the win con for Chain Burn. Monk because Monk -> Monk (nobody does that), Necroface because it interacts with itself when it banishes other Necrofaces.

 

 

 How do I know not to hold it and speculate on an additional rise?  Because the card just sucks.  If I were just a vendor, I might not be able to see that.  I would probably think, "this card can only go up once Shaddolls come out."  But no.  The card's price does not match its power level, and that dictates to me when to move them. 
 

And there's something that really caught my attention. I bought a playset of DDGs for myself when DFi and Macro were limited last year. I saw their price spike recently, most likely due to Sylvans and LS Ruler, and my first thought was that I should hold onto them to counter Shaddoll Fusion. After thinking about it some more, you're probably right; unlike Trap Stun, it doesn't allow you to instantly win, it only puts a slight dent in the opponent's plans, and unlike Macro, it doesn't stick around long enough to have a real effect. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

 

Thanks for the replies, it's always a pleasure to read your articles. Looking forward to the Jedi Mind Trick article when you do write it.

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+Urthor    10206

 

Strike, Monk, Face don't fit.  Going back to my definition that the semi-limited category can be reserved for cards that interact with themselves in multiples, we can see that a card like Tengu is a good candidate for 2 since it does something unique at 3.  Same can be said about Reckless, as it does something emergent in multiples.  Strike doesn't fit that (I'd put it at 1), Monk doesn't fit that (3, it really just sucks), and Face doesn't fit that (3, unless someone can identify something it uniquely does in multiples).

 

Actually Necroface does fit since multiples of the card where interacting with each other.  One of the ssues with Necroface was using it with http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Inferno_Tempest and Grinder Golem to banish 3 copies of necroface from your deck and grave, making your opponent banish 16-19 other monster cards, and then another 15 cards for all 3 necrofaces, which creates a mill out deck.  

 

Semi-limiting necroface means that you're only banishing 10 cards with the Inferno Tempest combo instead of 15.  If you didn't have that there, that'd mean even in the best case scenario, banishing 17 monsters for Inferno and 15 for necro would leave you with at best maybe 8 cards spread between hand and deck plus any monsters you've drawn, vs 13 with Necroface at 2 which is a bit more rope.

 

Obv Inferno Tempest=Life Equaliser=should be at zero, but it is what it is.    

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