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Urthor

Korean Mechas Are the Best

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+Urthor    10165

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNbElX-MppY
 
[spoiler]7PeFowW.png[/spoiler]
 
3 Qliphoth Tools
2 Entermate Trampolynx
3 Odd-Eyes Pendulum Dragon
2 Qliphoth Archive
2 Qliphoth Genome
2 Qliphoth Disk
1 Qliphoth Shell
Zero Apoqliphoth Killer
 
14 "monsters"
 
3 Forbidden Chalice 
3 Mystical Space Typhoon
1 Heavy Storm
3 Qliphoth Sacrifice
3 Summoner's Art
 
13 spells
 
2 Bottomless Trap Hole
2 Torrential Tribute
1 Solemn Warning
3 Vanity's Emptiness
1 Compulse Evacuation Device
2 Skill Drain

1 Dprison/other card
 
13 Traps
 
40 cards total
 
Side
 
2 Spell Shattering Magic Arrow
1 Apoqliphoth Killer
1 Foucalt's Spellstone Cannon
1 Skill Drain
3 Shadow Mirror

2 The Selection

3 Maxx
 

xx w/e else we come up with.  The slots are still flexible, every side deck card is savagely powerful, but by no means is the side deck finalised.
 
 
Okay here's the story.
 
Last week at some point Kahu tells me that he's flying from Korea to play in the Hong Kong open this coming weekend, and be a tourist.  HK open is a Konami run OCG open event, held in Hong Kong, and the first place prize is flights to Italy and a vacation to let you watch worlds, but not compete.  
 
The estimate by the TO is for a 2-300 person turnout, making this basically the first Konami run premier event in the OCG that's even been held afaik, although I'm probably wrong.

 

Format is OCG, no Korean exclusives, all Japanese promos n shit legal.  Identical to the Japanese metagame.

He's borrowing Qliphoths to play on the day, and he's been practicing the deck for a week, while the list's getting there progress could be better, so here's were Qliphoth's are at.
 
Me personally I'd play a 40 card list because getting to Tools is Essential, but he disagrees on that and so that is what it is.  w/e thought on the choices you guys can bring to the table, that can be good, because Shockmaster Star Seraphs, Shaddolls with Shaddoll fusion and other amazing cards, and the Qliphoth mirror as well as various Dark Law.dek variants are what's going to be at the event almost certainly.  
 

 

 

idk what people will have questions about but here's some explanations
  
Dark Bribe.  This card's a bit about negating heavy storm.  But it isn't JUST about negating heavy storm.  If you pay the 800 life to activate Qliphoth tools, and your opponent chains MST/Spell SHattering/Fairy Wind/Twister/Dust Tornado/god knows what else, Dark Bribe is the only card in Yugioh that will get that Qliphoth tools to resolve and add a card to your hand 100% of the time.  That's important, and arguably worth the price you pay.

In addition to this, turning off the soul charge plays from other decks is the thing that can guarantee you game wins.  You can also push through backrow to otk, which is something we know this deck is really good at.
 
No Apoqlipoth in the main
 
Forbidden Chalice/Qliphoph Archive makes it really not impossible to swing over Apoqlipoth in the mirror match.  Super Polymerisation outs it as well and that card turns up seriously often atm.  

 

Chalice is really quite common atm.  It's really hard to summon, a brick in your opening hand going almost all the time, and if you're going second in an OCG meta where Shadolls and Star Seraph have zero qualms about setting 2-4 defensive cards, I can guarantee you're probably not going to resolve the card if you're not playing Helmet Kids on DN honestly.
 
Foucalt's Cannon.  Summoner's Art searches this.  The card clears a tools going second, and it gives you the ability to search a low scale monster of summoner's art.  
 
Fog King.  Without Chalice Qliphoth are unable to clear a fog king backed up by a MST. 
 
Ratios.  2 copies maximum of any engine card that doesn't add a Qliphoph tools from deck to hand.  You have to minimise the number of monsters you use to maximise the number of cards you can put between your opponent and your much reduced life points.  
 
 
anything else plz ask, idk what else I should elaborate on
 
We're sending Kahun Yu to Italy

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+Urthor    10165

Also Apoqliphothran is really amazingly good in some of the slower matchups like shadolls, absolutely a broken pot of greed when it resolves and you have anything resembling board control at all.  I'm not sure that card shouldn't be used at all. It gets back Qliphoth tools.

 

 

Fortran does a lot of things really really well, but it misses the cut because it doesn't defend Qliphoth tools or stop your opponent's play.  If you're making a Qliphoph play without tools, you're losing.  You don't need a card to protect monsters that you get for free off Qliphoth tools.  

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+Urthor    10165

I am so going to kill you for this.


You haven't even SEEN the things we're going to photoshop your face onto

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~NeoArkadia~    2794

The estimate by the TO is for a 2-300 person turnout, making this basically the first Konami run premier event in the OCG that's even been held afaik, although I'm probably wrong.

As a note, I'm pretty sure there's been other "big events", but this is first time they're trying a YCS esque tournament, and the YOT is basically YCS, Asia Edition.

http://duelistgroundz.com/index.php?showtopic=161108
So you're not far off.

I still think he should be running Zaborg the Mega Monarch in the side, blowing out half your opponent's Extra Deck is still disgusting.
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+Urthor    10165

Me personally I'd play a 40 card list because getting to Tools is Essential, but he disagrees on that and so that is what it is.

On this

His argument with me was "I ran 42 cards vs 40 through a hypergeometric calculator, and the difference between opening one of 6 tools/summoner's art is a 1.5% gap, and the gap between opening one of 9 if you include odd eyes is less"

Now I actually don't agree with this at all, but I'm really not sure how you go about arguing with a brick wall. I thoroughly believe the 1.5% chance to open one of the 6 copies of tools is completely and utterly worth it, 8 rounds of swiss average 2.5 games each, that's 20 hands of YGO you draw, there's an incredibly real chance the mathematics comes into play.

Just not sure how I convince the Korean of this truth.
 

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Freiser1989    86

 

Me personally I'd play a 40 card list because getting to Tools is Essential, but he disagrees on that and so that is what it is.

On this

His argument with me was "I ran 42 cards vs 40 through a hypergeometric calculator, and the difference between opening one of 6 tools/summoner's art is a 1.5% gap, and the gap between opening one of 9 if you include odd eyes is less"

Now I actually don't agree with this at all, but I'm really not sure how you go about arguing with a brick wall. I thoroughly believe the 1.5% chance to open one of the 6 copies of tools is completely and utterly worth it, 8 rounds of swiss average 2.5 games each, that's 20 hands of YGO you draw, there's an incredibly real chance the mathematics comes into play.

Just not sure how I convince the Korean of this truth.
 

 

 

Why people go above 40 cards is beyond me for probability sake. Makes a deck list ugly too.

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+Urthor    10165

Math

 

[spoiler]Opening one of 6 cards (drawing tools or summoner's art t1) in a 5 card sample

 

37 card deck - 0.610203786674375

 

40 card deck - 0.57712368238684

 

42 card deck - 0.556828280833416

 

Relative odds of opening one of 9 (that plus odd eyes)

 

37 - 0.774533892180951

 

40 - 0.741779735200788

 

42 - 0.72100043730339

 

Relative odds of opening one of 6 with a 6 card hand

 

0.68329057667293

 

0.649616765406239

 

0.628693965022591

 

Relative odds of opening one of 9 with a 6 card hand

 

0.837946235005059

 

0.808179231863442

 

0.78886519579716

[/spoiler]

 

So yeah the gap between 61.02 and 55.68 is pretty massive.  5.34%, or one in every 20 hands of Yugioh, running three upstart will guarantee that one hand without tools during swiss in that tournament will turn into a hand with tools on average.

 

Also not that 55.65% chance of opening tools or summoners art, going first turn 1, is really small.  This is why you max out of Qliphoth sacrifice, which aren't taken into this math.  Cbf to do the odds of opening Qliphoth+Sacrifice+no tools or odd eyes, but it's there, and it's significant.  

 

edit: I forgot, playing upstart in a format where turn 1 shockmaster is a thing is a no go zone 

Edited by Urthor

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petqwe    286

Qliphoth is still not being recognized as the best deck currently. Star Seraphs in multiple decks are still highly popular, and therefore I think some Maxx C in the side works reasonably well.

 

I still hate Qliphoth needing 800 LP to activate. Together with some more Skill Drain your LP goes down VERY FAST, in fact much faster than you can manage. I lost some games to Stellaknight when they saved their MST for my Skill Drain instead of Tools, and I got killed by 2 turn Sham + Gunman burn.

 

And the main deck and side deck needs more out against Raioh. I was testing with my Raioh + shits (without noticing I will play against Qliphoth) and Raioh set 2 is very solid.

 

If I know not too many opponents will not be playing Qliphoth I think I will maindeck 3 Upstart. And well, the deck should probably be down to 40 cards for reasons already mentioned.

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Freiser1989    86

Math

 

[spoiler]Opening one of 6 cards (drawing tools or summoner's art t1) in a 5 card sample

 

37 card deck - 0.610203786674375

 

40 card deck - 0.57712368238684

 

42 card deck - 0.556828280833416

 

Relative odds of opening one of 9 (that plus odd eyes)

 

37 - 0.774533892180951

 

40 - 0.741779735200788

 

42 - 0.72100043730339

 

Relative odds of opening one of 6 with a 6 card hand

 

0.68329057667293

 

0.649616765406239

 

0.628693965022591

 

Relative odds of opening one of 9 with a 6 card hand

 

0.837946235005059

 

0.808179231863442

 

0.78886519579716

[/spoiler]

 

So yeah the gap between 61.02 and 55.68 is pretty massive.  5.34%, or one in every 20 hands of Yugioh, running three upstart will guarantee that one hand without tools during swiss in that tournament will turn into a hand with tools on average.

 

Also not that 55.65% chance of opening tools or summoners art, going first turn 1, is really small.  This is why you max out of Qliphoth sacrifice, which aren't taken into this math.  Cbf to do the odds of opening Qliphoth+Sacrifice+no tools or odd eyes, but it's there, and it's significant.  

 

Is there a necessity for upstart in this?

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+Urthor    10165

Qliphoth is still not being recognized as the best deck currently. Star Seraphs in multiple decks are still highly popular, and therefore I think some Maxx C in the side works reasonably well.

 

That;s because it's not the best deck.  Qliphoth is easily hated out with a flood of s/t removal, and cursed seal of the forbidden spell on Tools is pack your cards up and go home.  If you go second to someone who's set cards going first, you physically cannot afford to set wiretaps/dark bribes and wait a turn, you'll lose the tempo and you'll get buttfucked.  This is the event for it because a) not everybody is necessarily prepared for it, and b) Kahu can't play anything else.

 

Maxx C is actually just not the best answer possible vs Star Seraph.  It's hard to see considering the amount of s/t hate being leveled against you, but LIM might be the best thing you just have to use.  Yeah I used 3 maxx for a long time but I cut it because of this.

 

Sanjura summed that deck for me, Star Seraph are just the worst without Shockmaster.  

 

Seriously it isn't that good of a deck, except hey guess what, it summons Shockmaster.  Any dedicated side deck cards for Star Seraph absolutely won't be maxx c, they'll be cards that put a dent in Star Seraph's shockmaster opening, and cards that stop "soul charge, maxx, overaly 3 cards for shockmaster, effect of star seraph xyz materials, lulz u drew 2 so wut I win."  

 

Calling spells t1 is a massive deal.  

 


And the main deck and side deck needs more out against Raioh. I was testing with my Raioh + shits (without noticing I will play against Qliphoth) and Raioh set 2 is very solid.
 
Decks making t1 shockmaster=no upstart goblin 4 Kahu srry I forgot to mention that in one of my earlier posts.
 
and i mean, chalice+skill drain+(qliphoth+equip spell/achives) isn't enough?  That seems like a perfectly reasonable number of answers to be fair.
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Also first change, -1 lynx, drawing doubles of lynx is clearly just the worst. 

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Miss Click    2475

Can this deck even deal with R1 T1 Shock Master? The only cards that seem to do anything relevant are Skill Drain/Compulsory Evacuation Device.

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petqwe    286

Problem of Skill Drain being a player can nearly always bait your Skill Drain and MST it. You should not really worry too much about your Tool being MSTed because seriously, if I know you play Skill Drain I think I should wait and let you search, then MST your Skill Drain. 8000LP is not enough for a Qliphoth player since a BRD nuke without using a normal summon will kill a Qliphoth player right during that turn. Other decks WILL survive such a BRD nuke unless opponent drops Sephylon. Not to mention that Fairy Wind and Spell-Shattering Arrow are solid picks against Qliphoth, and your LP is running even lower...

 

Skill Drain is definitely not a must. Maybe it is ok to have Skill Drain in some of the games, but I think if I main deck Skill Drain in Qliphoth, I will side it out g2 against everything, just to let you think 'OMG opponent Skill Drain better save my MST'.

 

I think I will work a bit more on Stellaknight again just to make sure that I can burn everyone who does not care about their LP. Making turn 1 Shock Ruler also makes people rage.

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+Urthor    10165

Can this deck even deal with R1 T1 Shock Master? The only cards that seem to do anything relevant are Skill Drain/Compulsory Evacuation Device.

 
Chalice and torrential
 
Not sure how many other things you can do without compromising really core choices like Vanity/BTH which are absurdly essential.  
 

Problem of Skill Drain being a player can nearly always bait your Skill Drain and MST it. You should not really worry too much about your Tool being MSTed because seriously, if I know you play Skill Drain I think I should wait and let you search, then MST your Skill Drain. 8000LP is not enough for a Qliphoth player since a BRD nuke without using a normal summon will kill a Qliphoth player right during that turn. Other decks WILL survive such a BRD nuke unless opponent drops Sephylon. Not to mention that Fairy Wind and Spell-Shattering Arrow are solid picks against Qliphoth, and your LP is running even lower...
 
Skill Drain is definitely not a must. Maybe it is ok to have Skill Drain in some of the games, but I think if I main deck Skill Drain in Qliphoth, I will side it out g2 against everything, just to let you think 'OMG opponent Skill Drain better save my MST'.
 
I think I will work a bit more on Stellaknight again just to make sure that I can burn everyone who does not care about their LP. Making turn 1 Shock Ruler also makes people rage.

 
err are you sure?
 
If they're using the MST one card other than Qliphoth tools, I'm really happy.  That's a GOOD thing.  Not a bad thing.  That's exactly a reason to play Skill Drain, you're throwing up a gigantic threat that your opponent has to use his s/t removal on.  I think you're overstating all the mind games about baiting/holding Mystical Space Typhoon here...
 

Skill Drain is definitely not a must. Maybe it is ok to have Skill Drain in some of the games, but I think if I main deck Skill Drain in Qliphoth, I will side it out g2 against everything, just to let you think 'OMG opponent Skill Drain better save my MST'.
 
I think I will work a bit more on Stellaknight again just to make sure that I can burn everyone who does not care about their LP. Making turn 1 Shock Ruler also makes people rage.

 
Yea um if you're playing Qliphoth and you're siding out skill drain in the Shaddoll/Stella matchup g2 for whatever reason, you're doing it wrong.  

Not sure what you're up to, but your opponent should be hamming the MST on the Qliphoth tools he knows you have, rather than worry about the skill drain you might or might not have.  

 

Both cards are amazing must kill threats.

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~NeoArkadia~    2794

Why people go above 40 cards is beyond me for probability sake. Makes a deck list ugly too.

In which everyone forgets all but one of the Japanese World Reps were running 40+ card Decks, as were several of Hong Kong's WCQ winners.

One or two more good stuffs tends to weigh over probability, especially when everything thins out at the speed of sound in the current OCG meta.

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petqwe    286

Stellaknight yes, Shadoll heck no. Seriously why will a Shadoll deck be afraid of Skill Drain? Even before 902 Shadolls have multiple ways to play around a Skill Drain, and El-Shadoll Fusion basically worsens things.

 

The problem that Skill Drain always has is that either you are not playing a deck that you should be playing, or most of your opponents are not afraid of Skill Drain. If you bring Qliphoth to the table and play some more Skill Drain, then either of the following will happen:

- Many people play Qliphoth, and of course they give no fuck to Skill Drain. Whoever draws Skill Drain starts with a likely dead card. If you want to ever avoid that, the solution is trivial - do not play Skill Drain.

- Nobody play Qliphoth. But wait, why did nobody play Qliphoth even when all of them already know what Qliphoth can bring onto the field? Because Shadolls and Heroes and similar cards and decks have no problem winning Qliphoth. Are they prepared to play against a Skill Drain in Qliphoth? Yes they do.

 

Historically for the past 6 years, dominant decks that can play Skill Drain more often than not ended up not playing them just because those decks were dominant and if you can play Skill Drain in them it means those decks would not be afraid of Skill Drain anyways. The last time I saw Skill Drain in top decks was Winter 2008 Light Zombies, and that deck still failed to triple Malicious.

 

Recent tournament results already show that Qliphoth IS being played and it joins Shadolls and Heroes and Stellaknight to share the meta. Stellaknight may fail hard in front of Skill Drain but the other two do not. Even against Stellaknight, you do not need to continuously negate effects, and Breakthrough Skill and Chalice will be already enough. These cards do not cost LP, Skill Drain does.

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+Urthor    10165

Shaddoll doesn't disregard skill drain at all, it makes zero sense not to play it vs that deck.  

 

 

Yes they can pop it if they get the right card in graveyard.  That's true of literally every trap card you use.  Are you going to not play solemn warning for the exact same reason?

 

Skill drain still makes all your guys 2800 attack normal summons, and alright they're a good deck but they can easily just die to 2800 attack normal summons especially when they have zero flip effects.  

 

Turning off caius, turning off the 2800 shaddoll thingy, idk why Omar was summoning it on me when Mathematician is clinically better but skill drain sure beat his armageddon knight too.

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petqwe    286

Shaddoll doesn't disregard skill drain at all, it makes zero sense not to play it vs that deck.  

 

 

Yes they can pop it if they get the right card in graveyard.  That's true of literally every trap card you use.  Are you going to not play solemn warning for the exact same reason?

 

Skill drain still makes all your guys 2800 attack normal summons, and alright they're a good deck but they can easily just die to 2800 attack normal summons especially when they have zero flip effects.  

 

Turning off caius, turning off the 2800 shaddoll thingy, idk why Omar was summoning it on me when Mathematician is clinically better but skill drain sure beat his armageddon knight too.

 

Waitwaitwait, I didn't notice that, people STILL play Solemn Warning?

 

It was like I haven't seen this card being played in the OCG for some months already.

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+Urthor    10165

I mean, just because the OCG doesn't do it, that means it isn't the right thing to do?

 

You've gotta make your own decisions at some point and trust your theory, but asking questions all the while. 

 

http://ocg.xpg.jp/deck/deck_search.fcgi?Flt=1&Card=84749824

 

If you want to look at the tournament results for warning in the OCG, it's pretty apparent that every has had the same idea as I've had about warning.  Namely, solemnizing Qliphoth tribute summons and pendulum summons is the fucking stones, and solemn warning is the cheapest solemn to pay life for, and hey if you're not playing Qliphoth, it's still solemn warning.

 

 

IMO as time goes on a lot of decks might be running 1 warning 1 advice.  Imagine if your trap lineup is 3 vanity, 3 fiendish chain, etc etc.  Advice can be run alongside those cards.  I tried it but it sucked sadly, 3k isn't worth it, and the problem with solemn is that it's just not a good card to an established field.  Idk arguably I could bump up compulse in my OCG list at the price of warning maybe, terrible in the mirror, but costless and established fields etc.  

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Tingy    463

so i got down to testing this deck. i would max out on drain and cut compuls completely. compuls is getting worse and worse in a meta full of qlipots. 

night beam is quite good too as its extra s/t removal.

sidedeck denkou sekka for blowout another crazy good card. 3 dd ground and 3 monarch storm forth too. 

the qlipot boss monster is really not worth it and i would just cut it completely. everytime i draw it i wish it was another qlipot which i could pendulum summon.

3 duality too and limiter removal is really good to aid otk. 

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┬╗.ben.    7438

I mean, just because the OCG doesn't do it, that means it isn't the right thing to do?

 

You've gotta make your own decisions at some point and trust your theory, but asking questions all the while. 

 

http://ocg.xpg.jp/deck/deck_search.fcgi?Flt=1&Card=84749824

 

If you want to look at the tournament results for warning in the OCG, it's pretty apparent that every has had the same idea as I've had about warning.  Namely, solemnizing Qliphoth tribute summons and pendulum summons is the fucking stones, and solemn warning is the cheapest solemn to pay life for, and hey if you're not playing Qliphoth, it's still solemn warning.

 

 

IMO as time goes on a lot of decks might be running 1 warning 1 advice.  Imagine if your trap lineup is 3 vanity, 3 fiendish chain, etc etc.  Advice can be run alongside those cards.  I tried it but it sucked sadly, 3k isn't worth it, and the problem with solemn is that it's just not a good card to an established field.  Idk arguably I could bump up compulse in my OCG list at the price of warning maybe, terrible in the mirror, but costless and established fields etc.  

 

If you solemn warning a PS, are the pendulum cards destroyed and sent to the extra? 

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+Urthor    10165

 

I mean, just because the OCG doesn't do it, that means it isn't the right thing to do?

 

You've gotta make your own decisions at some point and trust your theory, but asking questions all the while. 

 

http://ocg.xpg.jp/deck/deck_search.fcgi?Flt=1&Card=84749824

 

If you want to look at the tournament results for warning in the OCG, it's pretty apparent that every has had the same idea as I've had about warning.  Namely, solemnizing Qliphoth tribute summons and pendulum summons is the fucking stones, and solemn warning is the cheapest solemn to pay life for, and hey if you're not playing Qliphoth, it's still solemn warning.

 

 

IMO as time goes on a lot of decks might be running 1 warning 1 advice.  Imagine if your trap lineup is 3 vanity, 3 fiendish chain, etc etc.  Advice can be run alongside those cards.  I tried it but it sucked sadly, 3k isn't worth it, and the problem with solemn is that it's just not a good card to an established field.  Idk arguably I could bump up compulse in my OCG list at the price of warning maybe, terrible in the mirror, but costless and established fields etc.  

 

If you solemn warning a PS, are the pendulum cards destroyed and sent to the extra? 

 

 

Sent to graveyard 
 

That's basically most of the reason I play warning.  

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