Jump to content
Gredinus

Burning Abyss - Deck Discussion

Recommended Posts

So, I have a question. I've read every page of this and was wondering if I have room for two dark law and a fortune tuner in my extra deck and what are the staples for the extra now that norden is out besides the obvious triple Dante, downered, and like two Virgil. Or do I even have room for all three of them an possibly koga?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bulleht    18
Staple extras:
3 Dante
1 Virgil
2-3 Downerd
1 F0
1 Acid
1 Mechquipped

The rest depends om the meta.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Storm Wolf    1205

what Should be done about the Shaddoll matchup when they side in denko seca and royal decree? 

I play Effect Veiler in the Main Deck over Breakthrough just because Denko exists

 

what are the staples for the extra now that norden is out besides the obvious triple Dante, downered, and like two Virgil.

I feel that every deck should main three Maxx C and two Veiler since everyone is playing the Norden Clown engine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
brighteyes    2150
Veiler and Maxx "C" aren't extra deck cards lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dopespot    34

what Should be done about the Shaddoll matchup when they side in denko seca and royal decree? 

 

Don't play a significant number of traps in the first place. Matt Monahans "Almost Trapless" build is a fantastic starting point, albeit with a steeper learning curve than the trap decks.

 

If 2/3 of the best decks are guaranteed to be siding some number of Denko and/or Decree + general s/t hate like MST/Cyclone/Storm, are traps a legitimate defense?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The way I see it IMO it makes sense to run an almost trap less build as most people will not side into hate against you than. So, it quite possibly could open you up to running some traps in your side for g2 and throw them off. Idk if this might merit for an approach though as I'm just coming back to the game, however, it has worked for me in the past. I do feel it is a nifty trick to just kind of throw them off their game and when they feel they have to run a deck a different way as you have no traps you make them even more uncomfortable by sliding in traps to shift the scales of tempo even more in your favor. As I side note I haven't tried to do this with the deck personally. Just theory oh at this point just felt it merited being said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
itswhatever    3286

Idk how good trapless variants will be going into Dallas, especially if people are maining 3 maxx "c". More Shaddolls are running around too, which means you are likely to encounter more windas, which I believe trapless has a bigger problem with than trap variants. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»Noelle    5848

well its basically immunity to the traps of trap decks vs just maxx c, whereas normal ba has less moves to push through their sets so they could actually solve you, one with a higher count has enough floaters to, most games, run through 3-4 backrow early and easily, all at the opportunity cost of maxx c being just a tiny bit better.

 

also regarding shaddoll the idea that winda is going to invalidate a trapless ba approach has been a common critique but honestly when you get into the logistics of it winda actually fails at doing just that. consider them going first they're probably not gonna even set up for a winda, which is 50% of game 1's, games 2 and 3, assuming you're siding them in a larger monster count build which you should be you should have three de fusion and 3 book of moon as outs, not to mention winda can also lock them out of their next move too which means if you can pull graff wait a turn then extra deck next turn thats an out, or scarm to out. also in that case just opening a bunch of ba's + alich/farfa crashing then doing shit, or even so much as putting a dante up unless they have even more fusion spells (keep in mind the deck only plays 6 total and already saw 1,) they're probably gonna be grid locked for a turn then you can actually deal with it and likely go for game. another thing, regarding the other half of game 1's where YOU go first, unless they're fusing from deck in which you're losing anyways, it's not often they'll have a hand strong enough to cover 1-2 def pos dantes AND winda. if anything its deal with 1 dante winda without fuse from deck which means dante would be able to switch to atk and kill it so they wouldn't even do that in the first place making it a non-issue. also regarding the possible rebut of the "they wont do it if they go first" with "well they would just do it late game," you must understand the entire gameplan of this matchup is killing them as fast as possible and their lack of real traps plus your wealth of ba monsters to just go in lets you generally do EXACTLY that in that one turn lapse, thus solving that as well. theres also fiend griefing potentially solving it if you're playing those as you're only trap like i am, cards honestly maybe one of the best singleton cards ever printed in that it blatantly sets back your opponent and is a core engine piece at the same time for free.

 

so, concluding that portion, the idea that winda, or even shaddols in general barring fusing from deck invalidates the choice, i believe may sound alright on the surface but when you break it down logistically/specifically winda soling the matchup definitely isn't all it's cracked up to be. rampaging through w/e for an otk or eventually winning the long game with damage is recurring enough in this matchup to actually form a majority rather than a minority of the time you're going to play against it with the trapless/almost trapless variant, and that is to lead to me saying that i don't even think it's a bad matchup at all, then

 

also, unrelated but, fuck black jack i think playing that card is nuts, it's not even good with a discard trap which means we're playing it just to mill it and hope not to draw it? should we through some lightsworn wulfs in our decks while we're at it? it's not even like good and evil where you can either discard it in your engine with virgil or you had extra access to utilizing it with cagna from deck etc, it's literally just "you have to hard mill it or you're fucked." and even then the most it will amount to when it actually IS good is a trap that might not even suit the situation at hand. like, what am i missing here? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Flimsy    8
Running trapless/almost trapless makes dweller so much better against you which every deck can make for free off of noden. Even if you were to griefing the target that noden will special they will most likely have a lv 4 in hand to special and ruin your day. There was a reason BA went back to running traps and that reason was Nekroz. They will tear your boards apart. The deck counters BA extremely well and if you think you have a chance against Nekroz while running trapless/almost trapless then be my guest.

What Shaddoll players are you playing against that leave winda on board against a Dante with materials or anything that can get rid of it? Any good Shaddoll player will make winda on your turn to stop your plays.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Indignation    2858
In trapless winda isn't what your scared of. It's instant fusion into dweller for gg.
Winda will disrupt your plays, dweller will end it.

You need breakthrough skills at the minimum.
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mark    3105

Keep in mind you already play 3 Maxx 3 Veiler, you can make angineer farfa boards and you can also fiend griefing their norden target. What decks can OTK through that? If they stop at Maxx C that's good, if they play through it they better kill you that turn.

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»Noelle    5848

Mark is right. Winda, Maxx, and especially Norden now, are all what I consider to be irrational fears with the deck, especially when you consider the decks playing Instant Fusion now could already EASILY make Dweller to begin with. Also, Dweller by itself isn't a huge issue unless they win that turn. If not, you're forcing the other material and/or killing it next turn and then you're still floating and against a deck like Nekroz you actually end up in an advantageous position now because they now have a board and you can let them keep the useless board for a while so they can't search for mirrors and you'll be floating until you win. Not to mention, as Mark pointed out, Maxx C and Veiler. In addition to that I also play 3 Fiend Griefing as my only Trap and that also actually destroys Instant Fusion, and Angineer to an extent does to. The fact I main 3 Mistaken Arrest also can help invalidate it in the Nekroz matchup cus Dweller means absolutely nothing unless they have a board to back it up. I think it's just so much easier to go "Maxx C, Winda, Dweller, deck sucks," than to delve into each card and how you can actually address all of them advantageously or why taking a concession like Maxx C is a better alternative to having to actually make their Traps matter. What's the next fear, Flying C? The truth about that card is the decks that side it aren't Nekroz and because they aren't, they actually give you enough Turns alive to deal with it with Libic/Dark Hole/Crane Crane > Rubic > Virgil and the like. These aren't all things I just haven't considered at all and would go, "oh right that's a card deck sucks sorry forgot." It's deeper than that.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»Noelle    5848

Running trapless/almost trapless makes dweller so much better against you which every deck can make for free off of noden. Even if you were to griefing the target that noden will special they will most likely have a lv 4 in hand to special and ruin your day. There was a reason BA went back to running traps and that reason was Nekroz. They will tear your boards apart. The deck counters BA extremely well and if you think you have a chance against Nekroz while running trapless/almost trapless then be my guest.

What Shaddoll players are you playing against that leave winda on board against a Dante with materials or anything that can get rid of it? Any good Shaddoll player will make winda on your turn to stop your plays.

 

The problem with your first point is a deck that can make Dweller would probably already have 2 level fours anyway and the difference between 2 level fours and 3 level fours is nothing unless you're making Masquerade which they probably aren't in the matchup. Mainstream BA never was really Trapless to begin with even at Charleston, I have no idea what you're talking about. What you don't understand about Nekroz is the engine of BA is actually able to beat them if you only additionally interfere with other cards lightly, those being hole/geki/book/griefing/Angineer/veiler/maxx/mistaken arrest. People have this delusion that Nekroz and what it does is just some infallible strategy and if they're able to play any cards at all you lose, this just isn't true at all. The reason it wins vs most other decks when it can play is power creep but what you have to understand is BA cards is ALSO very high comparative power creep and that's why when non-Nekroz faces each other BA usually comes out on top. I actually WIN most of the games I get Trishula'd or Dweller'd when they're playing Nekroz, and while I'm all for theory over practice in discussion, it seems people like you (no offense of course, we all have to work on our mindsets in one way or another,) are just simply more receptive to results than ideas, even though you shouldn't be, but I can provide both. 

 

On your second point, you either didn't fully read what I said or am misunderstanding me. We're saying you make an average board of 2 Dantes. Without Fusing from deck, they can usually only deal with one. Then, it doesn't even matter if they winda on whoever's turn because the other Dante will be able to kill it and this is also true when you leave ANY monster on your board for the start of your turn. This isn't even including siding De-Fusion. Winda just is not a big deal.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»Noelle    5848

The way I see it IMO it makes sense to run an almost trap less build as most people will not side into hate against you than. So, it quite possibly could open you up to running some traps in your side for g2 and throw them off. Idk if this might merit for an approach though as I'm just coming back to the game, however, it has worked for me in the past. I do feel it is a nifty trick to just kind of throw them off their game and when they feel they have to run a deck a different way as you have no traps you make them even more uncomfortable by sliding in traps to shift the scales of tempo even more in your favor. As I side note I haven't tried to do this with the deck personally. Just theory oh at this point just felt it merited being said.

 

This is actually something I've considered in the past but dismissed on the following basis. First, you have to take a populist approach to this rather than a theoretical approach because it has to do with player behavior. Sometimes exploiting group behavior works, like most people agreeing to side out Djinn so you side in another, or you take the risk of putting one of the strongest cards in the game in your side deck hoping they'll agree not to use Vanity's, both of which were and are perfectly legitimate at their respective times. The issue with the populous of the issue of them not seeing Traps > not having outs for them > you capitalizing by putting in Traps, is that most people in my research actually just assume you got "unlucky" and drew a lot of monsters in a Trap BA deck, and then STILL put in the Denkos etc. This, then, invalidates the idea of being able to capitalize on that, unfortunately. There is one other angle I haven't looked into though regarding purposely informing them you're playing no Traps game 1 but then that's a crapshoot to rather or not they'll trust you especially when you're using cards like Mistaken Arrest, Book of Moon, and Fiend Griefing that will suggest to them the exact opposite. It simply isn't worth not playing some of those cards to try an angle that has undefined odds of working, perhaps I'll need to study that populous as well, and also figure out the optimal way to let them know I'm playing Trapless game 1 without making it super obvious what I'm doing. If I had to hypothesize the community habits regarding that though, I'd say a high enough percentage of them wouldn't take the bait and that will therefore invalidate the strategy.

 

Because we're not able to take that angle, them seeing some "Traps" like Fiend Griefing, Book of Moon, and Arrest in game 1 actually turns into a GOOD thing because it increases the chance they'll assume a standard Burning Abyss deck then put in MSTs/Denkos/Decrees that will be useless and give you the advantage. Regarding this angle that actually works vs the aforementioned angle(s) that may not, even assuming decent odds, it's still going to be like 95% time the current strategy working and maybe a conservative estimate of like 60% of the other strategy working. Sure there is an axis of power and consistency for all of the theory-related talk in the game and the 60% having, to play with some more imaginary numbers, a 100% power level against what isn't true but playing devil's advocate a 0% power level of the other, would still validate the former comparatively, but the issue is it's nothing like that because while capitalizing on them not having the S/T outs might be a LITTLE bit stronger than them having dead ones when you aren't playing traps, the difference in power is simply too miniscule compared to the comparative difference of consistency. Therefore, the current list/strategy in that regard, I consider correct. 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dopespot    34

What Matt said is pretty spot on, although a little difficult to follow. A few points to keep in mind regarding Dolls:

 

1) Dolls has over a 30% chance of not opening a fusion spell (on the draw, with 3 upstarts in deck) and will lose every game that they don't see one. Some players are playing Blazeman + Poly + Rota + Warrior stuff to alleviate this problem, but this comes with its own set of problems. 

2) With the introduction of Norden and the continued presence of either Performage or Seraphs, Dolls extra deck is extremely tight, to the point where playing only 1 Winda is common. Now they only have 13 slots to work with after including the mandatory 2 Norden + a standard package of goodstuff rank4. This means that they can't Winda > ESF > Winda in response to Farfa or Alich or any other removal.

 

I've been playing Matt's build almost card-for-card for the last 3-4 weeks now and I feel more comfortable against Dolls without traps than I do with them because I'm not getting my shit kicked in by a single Denko/Decree and basically any time your opponent leaves you an opening you can very often just kill them immediately. In the end, the biggest deciding factor in the matchup is far and away who wins the die roll. Whoever goes first is at a tremendous disadvantage because both decks capitalize on going second and neither has a particularly strong t1. In all honesty though, Dolls didn't do shit before Norden came out, I don't think they are going to do shit with Norden now because they still can't beat Nekroz consistently. Doll players really don't have much to hit Nekroz with other than Anoy + something. Even if it is successful, Nekroz will play outs to Anoy (something as simple as DD Warrior Lady) and now their primary weapon is mitigated. So I think that the Doll hype will die down relatively soon and BA will be the best non-Nekroz deck as Norden isn't solving Dolls primary issue (consistency).

 

In fact, the best deck to take advantage of Instant Fusion > Norden is Nekroz, and this is more worrying to me than Dolls. Since Norden has been legal, I can think of at least 6+ games off the top of my head I've lost against Nekroz that I would have won had they not been able to use IF, strictly because the IF allowed them to throw more at me than I had defense for. And this was with strong technical play; sometimes you simply can't deal with the threat of Brio + Trish + IF in a single turn. Nekroz can now do 4 things in a turn instead of 3 and IF doesn't require a clear board to use, just a Ju/Unicore in gy. I felt like the matchup between BA/Nekroz was very even with Big BA before the tins but now IF gives them one more power-card that is independent of most other variables similar to Rites.

 

I don't know what the answer to Norden Nekroz is but I feel confidant it isn't the "13-15 BA + shitload of traps" plan that was/is prevalent. Trading card-for-card against Nekroz is not a winning strategy, primarily because they only need one of their cards to go through (Brio, Trish, DA, Dweller, Excition, etc) to put you at a disadvantage while you need a combination of cards to put enough pressure on them. Norden only exacerbates this. In addtion, Denko and Decree are still real cards with very few real solutions and both will likely lose you the game if they resolve. I would be a little more willing to take the risk of losing to one of those blowout cards if the reward was worth it, but it isn't; there just aren't very many effective trap cards available to us right now. The only time Mistake is good is if you open double Dante + Mistake and can kill them next turn or so, otherwise Mistake will hinder you from advancing your plays. Skill Drain requires backup from removal traps to deal with the DA and Valks they will summon to be effective. Discard traps are situational and overall low-impact for the opportunity cost of playing them. BTS isn't bad at all and I've considered playing it in Big BA but only in addition to Veiler.

 

Right now I'm going to wait for Dallas to occur and adjust from there. Nekroz has to make room for those 2-3 IFs they're playing MD; something has to give. Droll & Lock is something I want to give another spin. Skipping their turns and possibly preventing them from getting Valk could buy us enough time to kill them.

  • Upvote 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
afr    980
The correct way to approach newer shaddoll and nekroz decks is by gathering free traps (aka fire lake), undoing big pushes easily with few cards (aka traveler), floodgates and/or cards that make your opponent think twice about keeping up their turn (maxx, arrest, ride, droll, etc.). As one for one trades are not going to cut it anymore as the bood decks can perform a trcukload of actions per turn now. Again, monsters are free, traps are not.

There is the problem in deciding how efficient you want your deck to be at beating stuff like qli or satellars or what strategy is outright better (1 turn rush with arrest/ride/maxx/droll; floodgates; infinite defense combo with traveler, etc.) vs the better decks to effevtively decide if stuff like lake, traveler, ride, etc. Are going to cut it, but at least, maxx "c" is the type of card you are always looking for.

Simple 1 for 1 trades in regular trap forms have never been weaker and this is something incredibly evident at this point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well its basically immunity to the traps of trap decks vs just maxx c, whereas normal ba has less moves to push through their sets so they could actually solve you, one with a higher count has enough floaters to, most games, run through 3-4 backrow early and easily, all at the opportunity cost of maxx c being just a tiny bit better.

 

also regarding shaddoll the idea that winda is going to invalidate a trapless ba approach has been a common critique but honestly when you get into the logistics of it winda actually fails at doing just that. consider them going first they're probably not gonna even set up for a winda, which is 50% of game 1's, games 2 and 3, assuming you're siding them in a larger monster count build which you should be you should have three de fusion and 3 book of moon as outs, not to mention winda can also lock them out of their next move too which means if you can pull graff wait a turn then extra deck next turn thats an out, or scarm to out. also in that case just opening a bunch of ba's + alich/farfa crashing then doing shit, or even so much as putting a dante up unless they have even more fusion spells (keep in mind the deck only plays 6 total and already saw 1,) they're probably gonna be grid locked for a turn then you can actually deal with it and likely go for game. another thing, regarding the other half of game 1's where YOU go first, unless they're fusing from deck in which you're losing anyways, it's not often they'll have a hand strong enough to cover 1-2 def pos dantes AND winda. if anything its deal with 1 dante winda without fuse from deck which means dante would be able to switch to atk and kill it so they wouldn't even do that in the first place making it a non-issue. also regarding the possible rebut of the "they wont do it if they go first" with "well they would just do it late game," you must understand the entire gameplan of this matchup is killing them as fast as possible and their lack of real traps plus your wealth of ba monsters to just go in lets you generally do EXACTLY that in that one turn lapse, thus solving that as well. theres also fiend griefing potentially solving it if you're playing those as you're only trap like i am, cards honestly maybe one of the best singleton cards ever printed in that it blatantly sets back your opponent and is a core engine piece at the same time for free.

 

so, concluding that portion, the idea that winda, or even shaddols in general barring fusing from deck invalidates the choice, i believe may sound alright on the surface but when you break it down logistically/specifically winda soling the matchup definitely isn't all it's cracked up to be. rampaging through w/e for an otk or eventually winning the long game with damage is recurring enough in this matchup to actually form a majority rather than a minority of the time you're going to play against it with the trapless/almost trapless variant, and that is to lead to me saying that i don't even think it's a bad matchup at all, then

 

also, unrelated but, fuck black jack i think playing that card is nuts, it's not even good with a discard trap which means we're playing it just to mill it and hope not to draw it? should we through some lightsworn wulfs in our decks while we're at it? it's not even like good and evil where you can either discard it in your engine with virgil or you had extra access to utilizing it with cagna from deck etc, it's literally just "you have to hard mill it or you're fucked." and even then the most it will amount to when it actually IS good is a trap that might not even suit the situation at hand. like, what am i missing here? 

 

I've been saying back jack sucks forever!!! How do you feel about Mistaken arrest in the maindeck with the increase of shaddoll players? Seems pretty dead in that match-up/Mirror.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So with the leak of the Kozmo lvl 8, I have a feeling that Konami is trying to power-creep this deck out of the meta. How are we gonna be able to take care of multiple boss monsters? I've noticed Kozmo players are starting to play prison/breakthrough, which is devastating against F0. I'm liking mind crush at 3 in the main and both fiends in the side. I almost want to main them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dopespot    34

With DOCS, Kozmo goes from "generally favorable" to "nearly unwinnable without hate". Pre-DOCS, Kozmo was a relatively inconsistent linear deck that required good draws and hate to take games from BA. We had outs to Town and could deal with Forerunner in a couple different ways in addition to just killing them outright before they get started. You would realistically only have to deal with Forerunner once or twice before you created an opening to push either for game or put them at <2900 lp and BarbaShark them out. They would also lose enough games to their own deck by not seeing Forerunner or Town and getting ground-out the old-fashioned way.

 

Post-DOCS, Kozmo now has at least an additional 3 big ships that are not only bigger but disruptive and an unrecoverable but difficult to kill enabler. There are still more TCG exclusives to be spoiled. This consistency boost helps solve one of Kozmo's biggest problems (assembling little guy + ship) and steps up their aggro game even more. Wickedwitch is an amazing generic beater being a very difficult to kill wall if need be and with other Kozmos punishes any attempt to BTS/Castel her hard. Dark Destroyer takes either a sweeper or an Acid Golem/Muzurythym to get rid of and then replaces itself with a fucking Forerunner who replaces himself with a Sliprider who replaces himself with a little Kozmo only to get recycled next turn with Town which requires a Virgil to remove otherwise they just search another damn field spell. A Wickedwitch with a Dark Destroyer in hand is going to be a hallmark play of this deck.

 

As for hate there are a couple different routes to take. You could go with Iron Wall which prevents them from advancing their gamestate and is relevant against a good portion of the field but is very vulnerable to removal, conflicts with the BA combos, and doesn't address big ships already on the field. Cyber Dragon Core is on the opposite end of hate as it is strictly reactive to the big ships but is more difficult to counter, directly addresses any number of ships on the table, puts a 2000+ atk monster on the board for you to get aggressive with, and can be accessed from the gy giving it synergy with Foolish and Dante. The downsides include needing to play 2-3 copies of Core + 1-2 copies of fortress, preventing you from making plays until it Fortress is removed, and not being able to access it from gy if you have a dude on board. 

 

To be honest I think all the current archetypes are going to have some difficulty dealing with upgraded-Kozmo, but BA is definitely the least equipped deck to handle these guys. Lets not forget Majespecters are also coming out in the same set...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bistro    15
I feel like there is 3 options.

1. Play a trapless version. It is better at dealing with big untargetable monsters.
2.play moon mirror shield. This makes it so all of your monsters become floaters that don't lose a battle which is pretty good against the kozmo. And the spell can be reused over and over again if the kill the monster.
3.switch to a more burn oriented strategy against kozmo. This is sort of dependant on if they switch to an monster heavy variant but using double nightmare shark and just trying to burn alot with barbar could work. Possibly along side some sided ceasefire or something along those lines.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As bad as it sounds, we may have to start playing the fusion spell to get over the big untargetable machines. Skill drain, dark hole and raigeki are all kind of outs as well..i really dont know if theres any non targeting, non destroying generic answer we have for them outside of f0.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×