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crowstar    25

no what he means by "not truly 40" is if you consider a deck with 1 tgu and 1 target for tgu, opening upstart and tour guide if it was literally 37 cards that upstart wouldn't be there and it could be, say, your only tgu target instead (in this hypothetical situation to explain the difference). So with upstart you could tgu, without upstart there's a chance you might not be able to but as the above poster said it that case upstart is actually just advantageous in that regard and it's so negligible anyway.

 

Or another example: you're going second you open 4 exodia pieces and upstart, he ftks you. If it was 37 you COULD open 5 exodia pieces and win. Naturally it's almost entirely (from what I know) irrelevant.

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I really, really like the toronto and madrid lists posted. 2 ofs are very nice; it follows the age old rule of "1 is tech, 2 is consistency, 3 is dependency".

I think maxx c is super strong for the mirror match, I swap out my upstarts for them. At worst it's an upstart that stops your opponents play; at best it draws you loads of cards to deal with the play. It's win/ win.

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»Sharpman    4801

Now that Toronto and Madrid are over, I think its safe to say that Shaddolls are the most popular deck and have the strongest representation at the top tables. 

 

What I'm wondering if how any of you are still considering rank up / Supply Squad a card. Yes, Rank Up summons Pleiades who is undeniably absurd, but you expend a ton of resources to get him out there. Of course, for the most part, these cards are free I won't deny you that. But why not use them as they are intended to be, free, to be doing other things? I should elaborate I guess. 

 

Rank Up is a dead card on its own (so is Supply Squad but that's another topic for another post), and it only works if you have a rank 3 (It's also worth noting the card conflicts with Downerd). So it does absolutely nothing to get your engine going. Then you summon a rank 5 for a -1. While card advantage isn't the focus point of duel monsters anymore, having to sacrifice a card (when you may have already had to do so in the first place to get that rank 3 out there if you used 2 BAs) for an extra summon is huge. Imagine going first, now you have 3/4 cards to your opponent's 6. I'm sorry, but regardless if your card is Pleiades or not you could still be very far behind. Yes, the BA monsters help you recover some of this lost advantage but your opponent has a deck too. Your opponent has cards. Their stuff is most likely free too if they are making plays. Then there's the situations where your Dante is hit in response to rank up with PWWB, Karma Cut, Compulse, etc... 

 

Putting yourself down a card or two versus Satellaknights is nothing short of brutal, because the rank 3s don't put any sort of pressure on that deck. Neither does a Pleiades really. 

 

Versus Shaddolls, yes Pleiades is an excellent counter to their fusions. But if they're fusing from the deck, they're gaining a ton of advantage of shaddoll fusion anyway. So it doesn't exactly trade off to an advantageous situation for you as much as you might like. 

 

Basically, the way I see this deck is everybody is playing cards that are too combo dependent and rely on the engine working to get going. The BA monsters are all insane stand alone cards that contribute to the power of other cards, stop playing this deck like some combo deck that wants to play Astral Force and focus more on what the BA monsters do best: grinding out advantage. Pleiades isn't an advantage card, Pleiades is a card that controls board position/ momentum. My version of BA is streamlined and simple: play the monsters, and trap cards. Grind out your matches, win based on that. The idea is every card in the deck should be doing something on its own and should not be sitting there waiting on a certain gamestate to be reliable (I'm lying, I play Felis. But that card is very good, again another post for another day). I also play Soul Charge because being able to revive dante, scarmm (to trigger an EP search) and actually have follow up plays is really good. Also, Tri Edge Levia. That card is insane! It counters the Shaddoll flip effects in battle because he can activate in damage step, this also lets him counter Pleiades perfectly. Aside from the fact that summoning him in the mirror is strong too, and versus Satellarknights being able to negate Deneb/ Altair.

 

Anyway, maybe you don't agree with me. Let's have a discussion about that.

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Brosi    82

no what he means by "not truly 40" is if you consider a deck with 1 tgu and 1 target for tgu, opening upstart and tour guide if it was literally 37 cards that upstart wouldn't be there and it could be, say, your only tgu target instead (in this hypothetical situation to explain the difference). So with upstart you could tgu, without upstart there's a chance you might not be able to but as the above poster said it that case upstart is actually just advantageous in that regard and it's so negligible anyway.
 
Or another example: you're going second you open 4 exodia pieces and upstart, he ftks you. If it was 37 you COULD open 5 exodia pieces and win. Naturally it's almost entirely (from what I know) irrelevant.


The whole premise of "37-card deck" is that you play upstart as soon as you draw it. Those cases above do not contradict the idea because they do not hold the premise.

So if you play 1st turn hand traps or cards that combo with deck, it won't be exactly the odds of 37 cards because there could be a moment you'd rather hold the upstart for a play or turn. That's the reason I wouldn't play upstart in something with cards I never want to draw (Felis).

Anyway 37 is good aproximation.

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crowstar    25
I agree he's making a non-point but there a some minor differences between 37 and 40 with upstart. But they never matter

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Storm Wolf    1205

I did not take a look at the Shaddoll deck lists from Toronto and Madrid, but what cards should I expect them to play against me in games 2 and 3? One of the things that I like about playing against Shaddolls is that it is one of the few decks that cannot play LIM or Soul Drain so that I do not need to play the three MSTs and Twister against them.

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Gabe3Vino    77
. Then you summon a rank 5 for a -1. While card advantage isn't the focus point of duel monsters anymore, having to sacrifice a card (when you may have already had to do so in the first place to get that rank 3 out there if you used 2 BAs) for an extra summon is huge. Imagine going first, now you have 3/4 cards to your opponent's 6. I'm sorry, but regardless if your card is Pleiades or not you could still be very far behind. Yes, the BA monsters help you recover some of this lost advantage but your opponent has a deck too. Your opponent has cards. Their stuff is most likely free too if they are making plays. Then there's the situations where your Dante is hit in response to rank up with PWWB, Karma Cut, Compulse, etc... 

 

Putting yourself down a card or two versus Satellaknights is nothing short of brutal, because the rank 3s don't put any sort of pressure on that deck. Neither does a Pleiades really. 

 

Versus Shaddolls, yes Pleiades is an excellent counter to their fusions. But if they're fusing from the deck, they're gaining a ton of advantage of shaddoll fusion anyway. So it doesn't exactly trade off to an advantageous situation for you as much as you might like. 

 

Excellent points about Pleiades/RUM, people are too quick to expend resources making a board that does little to advance your engine or create an unbreakable board. BA lack the ability to summon a Key Beetle or Winda alongside Pleiades to actually hard lock with Vanity's.

 

And let's not forget that Super Poly wrecks a t1 Pleiades while providing you minimal returns on your BA monsters, putting you so far behind due to Construct's eff and having to find a way over it.

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ShadyRock    328

. Then you summon a rank 5 for a -1. While card advantage isn't the focus point of duel monsters anymore, having to sacrifice a card (when you may have already had to do so in the first place to get that rank 3 out there if you used 2 BAs) for an extra summon is huge. Imagine going first, now you have 3/4 cards to your opponent's 6. I'm sorry, but regardless if your card is Pleiades or not you could still be very far behind. Yes, the BA monsters help you recover some of this lost advantage but your opponent has a deck too. Your opponent has cards. Their stuff is most likely free too if they are making plays. Then there's the situations where your Dante is hit in response to rank up with PWWB, Karma Cut, Compulse, etc... 
 
Putting yourself down a card or two versus Satellaknights is nothing short of brutal, because the rank 3s don't put any sort of pressure on that deck. Neither does a Pleiades really. 
 
Versus Shaddolls, yes Pleiades is an excellent counter to their fusions. But if they're fusing from the deck, they're gaining a ton of advantage of shaddoll fusion anyway. So it doesn't exactly trade off to an advantageous situation for you as much as you might like. 

 
Excellent points about Pleiades/RUM, people are too quick to expend resources making a board that does little to advance your engine or create an unbreakable board. BA lack the ability to summon a Key Beetle or Winda alongside Pleiades to actually hard lock with Vanity's.
 
And let's not forget that Super Poly wrecks a t1 Pleiades while providing you minimal returns on your BA monsters, putting you so far behind due to Construct's eff and having to find a way over it.
I mean I get that but how else do we make big plays to deal with threats that the rank 3 pool just is not equipped to handle? I mean yeah there's bls/sorcerer/ felis and friends but I've just found chaos sorc to lead to dead draws, and astral force has never been anything but incredible in my experience.

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afr    980

Is fine to cut astral force for being a risky card.

 

What is NOT fine is replacing the card with one even more terrible: felice (1/10 chance to have a complete brick in hand is NO JOKE). Mathman is already clunky and awkward in the mid game because it cuts you off malebranches, and people doesn't even want to play the whole set of 3 because of that. And 15% chances to open felice in a 6 card hand or 13% chances in 5 card hand is NO JOKE. Replacing a risky card for A BRICK is not a good way to go.

 

Soul charge is underwhelming a lot of the time (unless you open guide and 2 malebranches) and even in the mid game it is still lackluster, because tri edge levia is NO FELGRAND regardless of how good it actually is and because sometimes you do not have enough guides/malebranches to pull something more than tri edge (which is underwhelming for a 3k play as he is only 2600 for practical cleaning purposes, can't attack that turn and dies to any kind of backrow removal). What you are effectively doing is exchanging 2-3 risky cards for other less risky but still not good enough cards.

 

"The idea is every card in the deck should be doing something on its own and should not be sitting there waiting on a certain gamestate to be reliable"; soul charge already breaks that (less so than astral force but still).

 

Relying on the pink for all of your monster clearing needs is BAD yugioh, because stuff happens.

 

I feel like right now the "boss monster" paradox is the only thing keeping this deck from being the best one. BLS is not reliable (because of the light monster requirement and because he can be milled or not accessed fast enough), sorcerer is a big brick waiting to happen (and he is not on BLS power level so not worth the risk), monarchs also turn 5 card hands into 4 card hands, astral force is risky and so does felice and soul charge usually. The only thing keeping me from cutting astral force is the availability that it brings from being able to turn mid/late game dantes into win conditions. So maybe not a playset is required and 2 is a solid number for the card?

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»Sharpman    4801
Sorc requires a grave setup to be live whereas rank up requires a specific board presence to be established (and uninterrupted)

"Rank up has been incredible". That's not exactly a convincing argument. How are you dealing with the problems I'm presenting? Are you winning games you would have already won because you were already far up in card advantage?

The way I look at cards like rank up and supply is that I ask myself "would another trap help me just as much in the average game?" The answer to that question so far has been great, and an increased trap count has gone miles in dealing with shaddolls and BA mirrors because the traps I've included are very strong versus both decks.

On the other hand, the satella knight matchup is still very difficult. Thankfully it's not as popular as shaddoll.

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zubby    234

My issue with astral force is it tends to suck after side boarding:
Shaddolls: They can easily super poly it which generally means you lose out on cards and the fact you have to spend a turn not special summoning to add it back to make another pleadiues

Sateller: Stygian Dirge makes this card fairly dead, I've also found Pleadius dosen't do to much in this matchup, I'd rather just keep a Dante on board and sit behind it and force the Satellerknight player to try and deal with it

Mirror: You lose out if your opponent just chains a discard trap to the Astral Force.

At Madrid I decided to cut the 2 astral force I was maining for 2 De-Fusion G2/3 in the shaddoll matchup, my plan being to grind out the matchup with Discard Traps + Monarchs which worked really well, De-Fusion allowed you to deal with Fusions the same way that Pleadius does but dosen't lose out as badly to super poly. 

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zubby    234

On another note I feel people should really be running Giga Brillant (or you could try the double attack with djinn combined with temptempo) as you have little to no outs to Leo otherwise, except using a Astral force into bram in the Doll matchup.

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»Sharpman    4801
@afr

I'll happily trade felis being a brick in my hand 15% of my 6 card hand games rather than rank up being either useless or extraneous in 100% of them. Felis can be used to clear shadow mirror through black rose/ arcanite, or just destroy a monster (something this deck seriously lacks the ability to do)

Soul charge is a card that is live when I have ONE monster hit the grave. Anything more and it becomes more powerful. Tri edge isn't felgrand, I never said he was. He's not meant to be compared to felgrand he's himself.

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Crispy619    6

The other thing really important about Rank-Up Magic is that this is a very grindy format, so it's very good with floating Dantes, but I'm sure everyone knows that. None of the Big 3 of the format really OTK and because of this I end up going to time a lot in 40 minute rounds. Volca-Charger or even just Pleiades allow you to make big enough swings to secure games. 

 

The alternative to RUM which I have been testing to good success is adding Chaos Sorceror, Thunder Dragon, Soul Charge, and Karma Cuts over Raigeki Break. There's also a tech Pot of Dich in there. 

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Playing 3 Upstart only makes your deck literally 37 cards if you play the upstart before you TGU/Deneb etc in all cases, which you don't. 

 
Which makes it even better than playing 37 cards (ignoring life, obviously), but the difference is so small and a pain to calculate, so 37 cards is a functional shorthand. 
No, this is literally not true. Unless Upstart is on top of everything, it's not a 37 card Deck. There are 40 physical cards, and you can't change that. Those hypergeometric stats are only completely true if you take out Upstart, shuffle, and put Upstart on top. You only get 5-6 out of 40, and you cannot shorthand it to 37 because you're almost never going to open 3 Upstart.

Edit: I did the numbers because you're all too lazy too; you will have a 37 card Deck only %0.001 of the time when going first, and %0.002 of the time when going second. So those probability numbers on how often you will open X card when short handing to 37 are only true less than %1 of the time. I don't have the time right now, but if you wanted math that isn't bullshit, you need to do the probability of opening 1+ Upstart and that corresponding sample size. So going first, probability of opening Upstart (%30 chance of opening 1 Upstart) and then the probability of X card in the top 6 (for opening 1 Upstart; increase that number as you increase the number of Upstart you open with). And then you do some division. Allen had a thread on it. Someone do the math and get it right.

 

You're actually just wrong. When you don't draw Upstart Goblin, it's irrelevant, because you didn't draw it. When you do draw it, it isn't a card. For things like milling with Dante, sure, Upstart doesn't make your deck 37 cards, as Dante won't skip over Upstart like drawing a card does, but you're looking at this totally wrong, and it bothers me that nobody has actually pointed out accurately why you're wrong.

 

Imagine a deck with 39 Upstarts and 1 other card. Going first, the chances of drawing that 1 card are 100%.

Let's skip ahead a little, and consider a deck with 6 cards and 34 upstarts. When you open with 5 cards, we can all agree you have a 1/6 chance to not draw a specific card in that deck before running out of Upstarts, right? Pretty trivial, since there is no way you run out of Upstart Goblins before finding 5 of the 6 non-upstarts in your deck. 

What are the hypergeometric odds of not drawing a card out of a 6 card deck? One in six.

how about 7 cards and 33 Upstarts? You open with 5 cards, so there is essentially a 2 in 7 chance you don't see a given card before running out of upstarts to play. we still agree, right?

Hypergeometric odds on a 7 card deck? 2 in 7.

 

 

You'll find this stays true for a deck with n cards and n-40 upstarts, (or n-any number of upstarts really), and I'm sure it can be proven through induction. It's just quite a bit of work to show.

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Faith+1    41

So currently we're having a debate on what to side against the mirror. On our ride home from Toronto, Jordano brought up Ojama Trio to me. Card seems good for now until we get the synchro but then I mentioned this to my boys albanese and rizzi and they both said they aint with the shits and that flying c is much better.

 

In the mirror i can only see 4 cards stopping Trio: Wiretap, Trap Stun, Vanity's Emptiness, and Chain D. On the otherhand, Flying C is stopped by Vanity's, Chain D, raigeki break, book, etc. (No ones playing Dark Hole right now, but I guess that would be an out to both as well). But in comparison, although both lose to Emptiness, you lose Trio indefinitely but still keep Flying C in hand when emptiness is chained.

 

Originally I thought that Ojama Trio would be better because they couldn't tribute the tokens off for a monarch unlike flying c and took up 3 of their monster zones which means all their xyz plays would be severely limited. Trio also meant that Downerd becomes better and resolving a Trio also meant that you could potentially sit back and deck your opponent out if they didn't have any outs to it. The damage dealt from their destruction is so minimal that i felt that it was irrelevant. But after carefully analyzing both cards I'm still back and forth between Flying C and Trio. Both have their pros and cons but which one is truly better?

 

300px-FlyingC-JOTL-EN-SP-1E.png or 300px-OjamaTrio-DP2-EN-C-1E.jpg

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zubby    234

Flying C hits more decks which I think gives it a bigger edge, you can use it as for a rank 3 with a non BA if need be and if you play Maxx C it's something you can draw off it and use when your opponents comboing with say Infernity and you can use it on your opponents turn 1 if need be.
 

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Faith+1    41

Oh whoops, versatility was something i forgot to mention. Thanks for clarifying that zubby!

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Faith+1    41

They can use dire wolf to pop the tokens.

i wasn't talking about siding trio for anything but the BA mirror lol...i know that any deck that makes rank 4's can make dire wolf to pop the tokens lol hence why i would never side it vs satellars or infernity.

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The biggest problem I have with Ojama Trio is that you're already siding 3 Chain Disappearances against just the mirror, why would you want to devote even more side slots to a card that is only ever going in for the mirror? Flying "C" going in against Satellarknight as well as the mirror, and some more obscure matchups like Infernity is a big reason why the card is in my side. As far as utility in the mirror, Trio not stopping a Tour Guide play unless they have another monster already makes me question how good the card actually is. 

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Faith+1    41

Well so flying c seems better due to versatility right?

correct but can you ignore the pros of Trio?

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zubby    234

Also with Flying C you can stall then make pleadius bounce it swing and have the C to mess up their plays next turn :)

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Brosi    82

@afr

I'll happily trade felis being a brick in my hand 15% of my 6 card hand games rather than rank up being either useless or extraneous in 100% of them. Felis can be used to clear shadow mirror through black rose/ arcanite, or just destroy a monster (something this deck seriously lacks the ability to do)

Soul charge is a card that is live when I have ONE monster hit the grave. Anything more and it becomes more powerful. Tri edge isn't felgrand, I never said he was. He's not meant to be compared to felgrand he's himself.

I also like Felis for how versatile it is when dumped by Math, but the thing is it's not only a 12.5% brick: in a build with 3 Math you have a probability of at least 25% of drawing Felis before a Math during a duel. That is 1 in 4 duels. But not only that, if you mill with Dante before drawing any Math or Felis, the odds of dumping the former are higher than dumping the latter, so the chance of drawing Felis before a Math can only go up. And if that was not enough, most of the time you don't use Math right away after drawing it or you don't dump Felis with him. So my conclusion is that the card is somewhere between 25% and 50% of being dead. Sadly.

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