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Burning Abyss - Discussion

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SageRhapsody    242

While I agree wholeheartedly with that, the problem still stands that raiza cannot be used on the first turn/there's no point. Going second, Raiza is great though so there is huge merit in running him. 

In my humble opinion, the best first turn opener vs unknown is simply a math, pitch scarm set traps, search malebranch, assuming you have discard outlets (if not TGU). Math is just so good first turn because they either have to waste resources to get rid of it, or you go plus off it's deathrattle. The only downside is it crashes with deneb so if you can't PWWB/cut it deneb the tellar player might go plus. 

 

With TGU, and no vanties or cut/pwwb, you want to TGU, graff, make dante, mill 1 and summon scarm from deck. No traps is probably the worst thing going first, but this is probably your best bet. Worse case, they get their free construct, kill dante, and you can make another xyz with scarm's search, or by specialing the graff you got back with dante. However, the odds of such disgusting openings where you pretty much auto lose are very low, and so this is moot. Opening like this against Shaddolls is probably an instant-lose if they haven't bricked too.

I feel this play is probably best g2 and g3 against mirror and tellars/with vanity's, pwwb, and other traps that out their fusions. 

 

Against unknown and dolls, with no math in hand and no real traps, I'd simply just set a scarm/graff and hope my hand gets better before they blow me out. (You lose most of these games though if they haven't bricked too).

 

I know I'm saying this all in a really shitty, hard to understand way, so TL;DR: dante first turn is usually the best play vs unknown if you don't have math as long as you have trap outs to fusion, because the odds of facing a shaddoll who opened fusion that you can out anyways, are low. And if you have TGU + 4 other BAs or something awful, it's better to simply just set a live BA so they can't blow you out even harder with free fusions. 

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While I agree wholeheartedly with that, the problem still stands that raiza cannot be used on the first turn/there's no point. Going second, Raiza is great though so there is huge merit in running him. 
In my humble opinion, the best first turn opener vs unknown is simply a math, pitch scarm set traps, search malebranch, assuming you have discard outlets (if not TGU). Math is just so good first turn because they either have to waste resources to get rid of it, or you go plus off it's deathrattle. The only downside is it crashes with deneb so if you can't PWWB/cut it deneb the tellar player might go plus.


It's interesting you say that, because I think the fact that Mathematician can crash with Deneb is a huge positive. Being able to take them offline from their Alpha while replacing itself is pretty decent.

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+Urthor    10221

 

While I agree wholeheartedly with that, the problem still stands that raiza cannot be used on the first turn/there's no point. Going second, Raiza is great though so there is huge merit in running him. 
In my humble opinion, the best first turn opener vs unknown is simply a math, pitch scarm set traps, search malebranch, assuming you have discard outlets (if not TGU). Math is just so good first turn because they either have to waste resources to get rid of it, or you go plus off it's deathrattle. The only downside is it crashes with deneb so if you can't PWWB/cut it deneb the tellar player might go plus.


It's interesting you say that, because I think the fact that Mathematician can crash with Deneb is a huge positive. Being able to take them offline from their Alpha while replacing itself is pretty decent.

 

 

Crashing Math into Deneb is actually an awful play a lot of the time though.  Like, what you WANT to do half the team is leave the Deneb on their field, and that bricks altair and slows down their chain, and makes CotH dead, which you can do by not summoning math.  

 

Only in a few cases do you crash the math in order to get the draw a card a turn sooner, some gamestates you want the card earlier, some game states it is pretty nice to brick their deneb in.  Then their only monster ih is say an altair, they have a Deneb faceup, and you put the Satella player really far behind in tempo by not giving him the opportunity to get deneb in grave and thus not letting him pressure you with altair shenanigans.

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I don't get the point of your post.
Are you merely complaining about having to play around and acknowledge the existence of played cards in this format?
Or are you suggesting that making a turn 1 Dante blind is the 100% correct play regardless?

If it is the latter, then you're just wrong.
Emptiness is not a card in the game to solely justify you going first. It's relatively easy to play around, you have numerous outs in your deck (Mathematician, Foolish Burial, Phoenix Wing Wind Blast, Trap Stun etc), thus emptiness is a card that you can deal with with relative ease.

Shaddoll Fusion is also a card you can play around, and it is imperative to do so. If you give Shaddoll an opportunity to get a free Fusion, you will probably just straight up lose.

The difference in the importance of playing around the two is clear. If your opponent draws emptiness, and you don't have an out, there isn't much you can do. However if your opponent draws Shaddoll fusion, you can always prevent it fully, by not leaving an extra deck monster on board. This is why I count Shaddoll fusion as a card much higher up on the threat list than emptiness. If I lose to fusion, the loss was man made, as I could have not used my extra to stop it going off from deck. If I lose to emptiness by not drawing an out, there was nothing that could've been done anyway.

On a side note, I think this is why I still think the monarchs are so important to play still, because they make it super easy to play around Shaddoll fusion. Like Razia is a card that puts them back a turn or puts a threat back to the extra while being a 2400 non extra deck monster to put them on a clock that they can't attack over without activating Shaddoll fusion with the materials from their hand or field. If you meet this with a single trap card you likely win. I actually think the Shaddoll matchup would be really rather hard without raiza in your deck.

I was not complaining. Look at it from an outsider's perspective. If it is unknown deck vs unknown deck if you chose to go first, then it is because you would rather not play around traps like Vanity's Emptiness (the top 3 decks play triple); if your opponent chose for you to go first, then it is because their deck does not gain a significant advantage from going first (which shaddolls fall into). Everything else is irrelevant given the question.

 

Personally, I choose to go 2nd vs most builds because it suits the rest of my build as it is more reactive than proactive, but that was not what the question was asking. Going into Dante T1 vs unknown with only a TGU in hand is the most optimal play. What you do after depends on the build you have and cards in hand as the most optimal play.

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LukePlants    13

I like going first if I don't know what my opponent is running.

 

My build at the moment.

 

Monsters - 18

 

[3] Scarm, Malebranche of the burning abyss

[3] Cir, Malebranche of the burning abyss

[3] Graff, Malebranche of the burning abyss

[3] Tour guide of the underworld

[3] Mathematician

[2] Raiza the storm monarch

[1] Shaddoll Dragon

 

Spells - 6

 

[3] Supply Squad

[2] Mystical Space Typhoon

[1] Foolish burial

 

Traps - 16

 

[3] Phoenix wing wind blast

[3] Vanity's emptiness

[2] Karma cut

[2] Breakthrough skill

[2] Trap stun

[2] Mind crush

[1] Bottomless trap hole

[1] Compulsory evacuation device

 

Shaddoll Dragon just turns math and foolish into MST. ( you guys know this )

Supply squad is personal preference. Dont like it? Run more traps or run a 3rd raiza.

Mind Crush and trap stun is the nuts.

 

Extra - 15

 

[3] Downerd Magician

[3] Dante, traveler of the burning abyss

[2] Ghostrick Alucard

[2] Number 47: Nightmare Shark

[1] Wind-up Zenmaines

[1] Number 20: Giga-Brilliant

[1] Number 30: Acid golem of destruction

[1] Number 17: Leviathan Dragon

[1] Temtempo the percussion Djinn

 

Side - 15

 

[2] Caius the shadow monarch

[2] Mobius the frost monarch

[2] Maxx ''c''

[1] Mystical Space typhoon

[1] The monarchs stormforth

[2] Ojama Trio

[2] Chain disapearance

[1[ Mind crush

[1] Full house

[1] Karma cut

 

Ojama trio makes all BA dies and it's for downerd Magician. Also good side vs Satellars. Full house for rogue. and for satellar. Mind crush the same.

 

Karma cut is for satellar. I use it against deneb and they banish all in grave. Also When I play against Satellars I side out 3 pwwb due to how it's bad vs their carigorgon, and their delteros. ( they can use the effect after it resolves )

 

Caius is for all top 3 decks.

Edited by Urthor
User was warned for this post. Read the deck discussion rules, take it to deck garage
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Sess    282

Soul Charge not too popular in this deck anymore?

 

I'm not sure if it was ever really popular in the standard builds. You don't really get much cause your guys explode, maybe a rank 3 but that's just a weaker tour guide play that costs life and a battle phase. Tri-edge levia was one of the better reasons though. Soul charge might be worth reconsidering after we get the tuner possibly. Tour guide for graff for dante then just soul charge back graff to synchro seems good with graff getting tuner from deck.

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SageRhapsody    242

Or we could run traveler which may just be all around better since it has no cost, can be run in multiples, and can even set up rare otk situations.

it just can't be used on the first turn like you describe. But it's worth it for a soul charge that has no cost.  

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Warthog    165
Got my invite yesterday with this deck and overall proud how the deck ran all day. Build was standard but with zero tributes main decked with more removal with Squads (which was MVP against Nutella and everything else but Shaddoll). Looking forward how this deck will progress shortly in the next couple of weeks with the new set coming out as we should have plenty of variety.
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BYU is Gay    11
The deck techs we've discussed here got a really nice top 8 top at the ARG event this weekend which shows it has promise and we were headed in the right direction with the deck. Should we use this as a base and discuss ratios? I felt weird testing this with only 1 Cir and 2 dante but with this deck, Dante isn't the only big push/control play you have so it makes a lot of sense.

Ben Burns - Burning Abyss Shaddolls

3 Kuribandit
3 Tour Guide from the Underworld
3 Scam, Malebranche of the Burning Abyss
3 Graff, Malebranche of the Burning Abyss
1 Cir, Malebranche of the Burning Abyss
2 Chaos Sorcerer
1 Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning
2 Shaddoll Beast
2 Shaddoll Squamata
2 Shaddoll Dragon
2 Maxx "C"
2 Effect Veiler
1 Shaddoll Falco
1 Shaddoll Hedgehog
2 The Beginning of the End
1 Allure of Darkness
1 Super Polymerization
1 Foolish Burial
3 Shaddoll Fusion
2 Vanity's Emptiness
2 Sinister Shadow Games
2 Breakthrough Skill
3 Phoenix Wing Wind Blast
1 Compulsory Evacuation Device
Side Deck

3 Caius the Shadow Monarch
3 Raiza the Sstorm Monarch
3 Mobius the Frost Monarch
3 The Monarchs Stormforth
2 Mystical Space Typhoon
1 Raigeki
Extra Deck

2 Dante, Traveler of the Burning Abyss
2 Downerd Magician
2 El Shaddoll Winda
2 El Shaddoll Construct
2 Ghostrick Alucard
1 Number 47: Nightmare Shark
1 Number 30: Acid Golem of Destruction
1 Leo, Keeper of the Sacred Tree
1 Temtempo the Percussion Djinn
1 Black Rose Dragon
1 Number 49: Fortune Tune

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SageRhapsody    242

Am I wrong in saying that traveller is a much better soul charge post-NECH? It's cons severely out-weigh soul charge's cons, and the only problem I can see with it is the fact that it's a terrible top deck to an established field while you have nothing. (But in those situations, just about no top deck would save you anyways)

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+Urthor    10221

Soul Charge doesn't have to be set for a turn, that's much better than traveller's shit.

 

Obviously you play as many copies of those cards as possible because they're both pretty ridiculous.  

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┬╗Sidereal    4064

So what do you guys usually do when you open tour guide and no math? Make Dante and then what?

TGU->Scarm->Dante->detach Scarm to mill (usaly mill 1 if going first).
Set traps, end phase search with scarm
You are playing incorrectly.
there are no absolutes in yugioh

that play is totally fine if they have discards

if you're going to post like you know something the rest of the site doesn't you might actually want to, or gee maybe even post what you think might be better

otherwise, shut up and keep to making flat jokes for rep
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Warthog    165
I have had better luck by not going into Dante turn 1 unless I know what I am playing against or if I opened Vanity or Warning. You lose really quickly if you play into Shaddoll Fusion. Once you exhaust their dolls you are more likely to get away with it.

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RobertM    86

39% chance they'll have fusion (since nobody fucking plays Upstart) vs the utility of making a t1 Dante, which is otherwise impossible to get over for that deck?  Assuming they're even playing Shaddolls?  C'mon.

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NB96    798

So what do you guys usually do when you open tour guide and no math? Make Dante and then what?

TGU->Scarm->Dante->detach Scarm to mill (usaly mill 1 if going first).
Set traps, end phase search with scarm
You are playing incorrectly.
there are no absolutes in yugioh
that play is totally fine if they have discards
if you're going to post like you know something the rest of the site doesn't you might actually want to, or gee maybe even post what you think might be better
otherwise, shut up and keep to making flat jokes for rep
srry accidental neg

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+rap tap    20162

 

 

 

So what do you guys usually do when you open tour guide and no math? Make Dante and then what?

TGU->Scarm->Dante->detach Scarm to mill (usaly mill 1 if going first).
Set traps, end phase search with scarm
You are playing incorrectly.
there are no absolutes in yugioh

that play is totally fine if they have discards

if you're going to post like you know something the rest of the site doesn't you might actually want to, or gee maybe even post what you think might be better

otherwise, shut up and keep to making flat jokes for rep

 

underrated post

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_Juice    3
Everyone knows how strong of a card DAD is, so I've been trying to figure out how I could be done in the deck. I'm looking at Dark Necrofear right now.
So Necrofear banishes 3 from your grave which isn't even that hard in this deck cuz we fill the grave so fast. That helps manage the grave for DAD. But also, necrofear acts as a pseudo out to construct plus it crashes with winda.
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Carbon    1858
Pls don't play dark necro fear.
I don't like dad.
Like ya it's dad but still. You're either forced to summon it t2/3 and then it just dies or you draw it turn 4+ and you can never summon it.
Playing necro fear to solve that will only make brickable cards appear more often.

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CalvinTahan    996

 

underrated post


 

 

 

So what do you guys usually do when you open tour guide and no math? Make Dante and then what?

TGU->Scarm->Dante->detach Scarm to mill (usaly mill 1 if going first).
Set traps, end phase search with scarm
You are playing incorrectly.

 

Completely agree; I am glad to see the seed I had sown has finally grown. I asserted an absolute because absolutes are easiest to discuss and breakdown, as my intention was meant to spark (and eventually finalize) discussion on the matter because I feel if we're still here getting held back by wondering if we're making optimal turn 1 plays, then we aren't ever going to progress as a team, which is something I very much want to see us do. Anyway, Bowman said what I was heavily implying, only with more words and more tact. I'm not sure why my saying "X is is not Y" suddenly leads to everybody expecting me to tell them what Y is. I might not know what the fuck Y is. All I know is that it definitely isn't X. Look, metaphors can be hard, and I am but an empty oyster in a world of gold. I feel that Bowman and Urthor have more or less concluded our weekly discussion on "things we should all probably already know", so now we can move into the fun stuff:

 

Billy Brake has been all the rage lately. As some of you may have seen (if you didn't - don't worry; you aren't missing anything), I too recently saw success with and topped a regional with a similar but smaller (and subjectively less-shitty) deck. I actually played six burning abyss matchups at that regional, and to refer to those matches with any phrase other than "total annihilation" would just be lying. As a fairly-invested Burning Abyss player at heart, this worries me. They literally didn't stand a chance. They're trying to play a fair game of grinding out the mirror and beating Double Dante and Wingblasts, and then out of nowhere there's a Shaddol Fusion, or a Shadow games to kill their end phase set, or a Super Poly to just literally end the match. And then game 2 they're trying to play around Shaddol cards without overlaying, which is hard enough as it is but fortunately they have Monarchs on their side. But out of nowhere there's a Karma cut now they can't resolve Scarm. This weekend, I missed Raiza. I missed the pacing BA used to bring. But I didn't miss the sense of control, because there was literally nothing to worry about when I was constantly up 5 cards on them for free. If you think tributing Scarm for Raiza, setting wingblast and getting Graff to hand is a good play, try doing the same thing but tributing for Beast and setting Shadow games instead. I'm going to try to stop talking about the deck I ran, or the deck Billy ran, because I am not trying to convert anybody here. Patrick actually wrote arguably his second-best article of all time this week, and if you guys haven't read it, you should. In it, he points out that just because Billy won with 60 cards, it does not mean that 60 cards is good or should be the norm. However, while that is true, my deck this weekend ran 43 cards. And I don't think these "mash-ups" are just a fad that will slowly die. I fear they will become the norm, for the simple reason that there's really just no counter. Once you get going, there is no stopping. You can out-plus Shaddols and beat them with cards that are strong vs them like Wingblast. You can shit on Burning Abyss because anytime they want to get over one of your 1900 monsters, they have to generally overlay, which subjects them to Fusion.

 

In light of the power of this new hybrid, I suggest that whoever was considering a change to a Chaos Sorc build, heavily consider not doing so. The pacing of it is just too slow, and not being able to hit Beast or Falcon or virtually any card in the hybrid build with Sorcerer makes it pretty fucking bad.

This is not to say that I think Monarchs are the way to go either. I've played the matchup several times on both sides, and as the BA Monarch player, it feels like any wins I take are ones I "stole" from underneath. Situations where Raiza very likely would not have walked, but it just so happened that his sets were dead and it did. This happens maybe 3/10, where I'm able to ride a Raiza or open Emptiness and make a Dante and win. The other 7, I just straight-out lose. I hope I sound concerned, because I am. I don't really know how to fucking beat this thing.

What do we do in light of this news? For one, we have to outpace them. We need to make our first turn count when we are able to elect to go first. Draw trapcards. Supply Squad is a great way to do this, but it loses out hard to Dragon/Games. Non-Fusion Area, while a card I fucking LOVE to use in BA vs Shaddols, is virtually useless vs this variant, as they will almost always be able to wingblast it away, or just laugh and summon Tour Guide and beat you with that instead. The closest answer I have come to is Majesty's Fiend. I know I was a huge proponent of his alter, Vanity's Fiend, having had publicly written off and ridiculed Majesty's multiple times, but I feel like it honestly is (an) answer. Yes, they can out it by Super Poly. You pretty much just fucking lose. That card is also at 1 now. However, them simply playing Shaddol Fusion to try to beat it just isn't good, because they are negging 3 from hand and hopefully just running into a Wing Blast. This seems like the perfect card to control with. You'll have to protect it with Trap Stun, though, because they have infinite Karma Cuts and WingBlasts. Seems easy enough, right?

NO, because the stupid deck also runs Stormforth and 3 Beast and sides Monarchs of their own.

 

I want to take this moment to apologize: this was supposed to start off as a somewhat educational post, but it's turned into nothing more than a tangent. I have hit a brick wall, and I don't know how to unplaster my face from the cold, unforgiving concrete.

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Warthog    165
I believe this only a trend until Nech is released. Then we will see players, good and bad, gravitate back to pure builds. We don't even know what all the new support is. People will want to try the new pendulum deck. People will want to play the new Shaddoll and BA cards. The hybrid builds definitely will continue seeing play before nech and anyone going to an event definitely should be worried because there ain't a lot to side. Rivalry could be an answer and thought it was an interesting idea once I read Rosty's report from the last Arg.
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fractal    2515
So, Angineer is a Light, Fairy monster. Artifacts are Light, Fairy monsters. Where am I going? Sky Scourge Norleras. Chaos Emperor Dragon incarnate. For those who don't know it: Lv8, Dark, Fiend, Nomi via 3 Dark Fiends and 1 Light Fairy (banish), 2400 ATK; Pay 1k LP, send all cards (both players) on field, in hand, to grave, then draw 1.

Summoning requirements should be relatively easy to fulfill if you play Angineer/Artifacts, and you can trigger BA/Doll effects. Of course, the downside to that is triggering opposing BA/Doll effects, but you simplify the game by removing S/T from the opponent, and the 1 draw /could/ get you something silly like Vanity, Fusion, End, etc. Thoughts?
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Carbon    1858

I think I'd rather side it for non BA/Shaddoll matchups instead of maining it.

If I were to play it that is. Like if they have a hand full of effects it wont really do anything productive.

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SageRhapsody    242

I've been playing the typical Burning Abyss build with 3 fusions, a beast, falco, squamata, and 2 dragons. This ratio has seen the most success as it reduces the crappy first turn draws, yet is enough to do what we want to. Which is fuse from deck for free. My light targets are two veilers and in an emergency, a BLS. Veiler in this format has been proven to very strong, as stopping denebs, maths, TGUs, rogue crap has proven invaluable. Veiler is also a solid card when going second, which we had previously discussed in the thread being a legitimate idea. The idea behind this certain ratio of the hybrid is to hinder the BA engine as little as possible, and using fusion/BLS as win condition in the right gamestate. Fusion is very rarely not live since Dante and the rest of our engine inherently forces the opponent to reach into his extra deck.  A 2500 Downered with Dante and Cir underneath is a big problem, but in many cases people would bite the bullet, get the beater/whatever out of the extra and kill the Downered.

 

The advantaged accrued through floating is sometimes pointless, as little rank 3s have a whole lot of trouble when staring down most developed fields. Fusion allows us to have our own counter attack, and use the advantage we earned to simply push ahead of the opponent. 

 

Construct is just about the answer to everything Dante and friends can't beat, and fusion gives us this with a bonus massive pluses to boot. Pitching a falco and veiler, and then a beast, and then using TGU to make Dante is just about game winning in all aspects. Fusion also readily makes BLS live, and as most people have learned, is another massive win condition.

 

Winda in a simplified gamestate against the mirror iand tellars is just about instant-win as she is very hard to answer in those situations.

 

This may seem all anecdotal, but so far in testing, the small fusion+chaos engine gives Burning Abyss what it had lacked: 1) A reliable win condition and 2) The strength and power of a combo deck.  

 

EDIT: I also totally forgot about the synchro plays one can make, such as armades, which is solid against dolls, and Goyo.

Plus, you don't exactly need math for the armades, you can still make it with a TGU and have the TGU target sit there floating.

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