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Burning Abyss - Discussion

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Fullerene60    379

Has anyone else noticed this deck probably abuses hidden armory the best out of the big 3? 
Shadolls have some clear advanteges with it but in most of those situations it feels winmore.
In BA my testing has shown that the normal summon is pretty irrelevant and we can afford to play a lot of 1 for 1 removal until we hit a simplified gamestate and this puppy shines. 
just my 2c

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RobertM    86

Erm, your normal summon is pretty relevant, actually; it's nearly always the difference between being able to make 1 Dante and being able to make 2.  Unless you open 4 different names, you need Graff to resolve either by itself or through Tour Guide, which requires your normal summon.  Mid-game it might be less relevant if you're pushing for game, but I'd rather not open Hidden Armory turn 1 in this deck.

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Axelerator    107

has anyone considered siding back to square one/ dark core against denkodolls?? it breaks denko + winda boards when your traps are locked

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Virtuoso    104

i strongly believe denko is going to fall out pretty soon. BA will probably turn into big BA after sece, running 3 lake and possibly 3 pwwb only depending on preference. Nekro and dolls dont run backrow, and qlip can flip all their backrow during SP. denko won't be a major otk enabler after SECE, even though vanity will still be a thing

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Fullerene60    379

I would gladly give up a normal summon for a card that not only nets you a +1 but swings the board presence in your favour. Wingblast just seems mediocre in comparison to how disgusting snatch steal really is as a card. Like you stick a dante, then they play something to break said dante, use your snatch on that... all the while playing msts and night beams to simplify the gamestate.

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Warthog    165
It really depends on good the new stuff is tbh because we will have only 2 weeks before the new cards are legal and between the first of January. We still talking really hypothetically here until we know everything but for the first week or so before the new set I don't see a real reason to change up the strategy and cut important cards like pwwb.

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Storm Wolf    1205

Let us also not forget the joy of using Snatch Steal to take away Majesty or Vanity Fiend when playing against the mirror or Shaddolls

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gift    6
Hello guys, I've been doing well against the mirror but it never hurts to improve. Curious on how the rest of y'all are siding for the mirror.

For the mirror, I usually add in 3 enemy controller, 3 majesty fiends, 2 Ojama trio, and 1 puppet plant (at the cost of 3 upstarts, 3 fire lake, 2/5 discard traps, and a calcab). Its obviously not always like this and can vary a lot.

Am I over siding? Or is this about right?

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+Urthor    10200

why are you siding out upstarts lol that's pretty silly

 

pretty sure you just don't use puppet plant because that card's bad, and then trim a controller because I'm not sure that card's a 3 of altho 2 is kinda swell and not the most awful thing ever, idk haven't grinded BA lately but it seems like an acceptable choice to test.  Majesty fiend is gen pretty neat because "discard traps are shit in the mirror" is the established group think atm, and you can shit on the groupthink's face it's swell.  But like, when they metagame you and liek they have the outs for majesty fiend, you're kinda going to be in shit aren't you when they have the discard traps for the Majesty n stuff, not to mention their own econs 

 

Not sure I like that as a long term trend.  Save Maj for the Dollies mebbe???

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gift    6

why are you siding out upstarts lol that's pretty silly
 
pretty sure you just don't use puppet plant because that card's bad, and then trim a controller because I'm not sure that card's a 3 of altho 2 is kinda swell and not the most awful thing ever, idk haven't grinded BA lately but it seems like an acceptable choice to test.  Majesty fiend is gen pretty neat because "discard traps are shit in the mirror" is the established group think atm, and you can shit on the groupthink's face it's swell.  But like, when they metagame you and liek they have the outs for majesty fiend, you're kinda going to be in shit aren't you when they have the discard traps for the Majesty n stuff, not to mention their own econs 
 
Not sure I like that as a long term trend.  Save Maj for the Dollies mebbe???

Yea I think I'm oversiding, thanks a bunch. Will drop puppet, a econ, and possibly the fiends too.

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+Urthor    10200

You should seriously test the fiends in a mirror match where both sides have Econs and no discard traps first, and then you with discard traps+econ+maj vs his only econ.  Idk how they'll perform there relying on pure theory alone, but the strategy of metagaming your opponent's BA side plan and bringing in  maj is a good one, but then Maj REALLY conflicts with Ojama trio so there's that.  Maybe the third econ because Ojama trio nice card as well actually I might just be totally wrong about only using two.  Also 1st vs second might influence the equation.

 

There's no such thing as overthinking.  Just gotta learn and acknowledge that sometimes you go to like, 1st layer of Yomi, and second layer, then third layer, just gotta remember that sometimes the other guy is on 1st layer as well and don't let yourself get caught.  What you're calling "overthinking" is actually just you not thinking enough in the first place.  

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Patrick Hoban    6363

Majesty is not good in the mirror. They're all on the first level. You're just going to lose to their Phoenix Wings and Karma Cuts. He's awkward to summon and is a lot to commit, which makes discard traps on it game ending and not just a setback. 

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RobertM    86

First level of thought - players who are still playing in the old paradigm, i.e. using discard traps in the BA mirror.  Trying to meta-game second level players by playing at the third level (using Majesty's Fiend and assuming second level players will side out/not use discard traps) is going to fail because there are more of the first kind and their technical play isn't always going to bad enough to survive the experience.

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Soul    7939
That's a pretty shitty way of analyzing an interaction, and I'm not sure it's even rooted in any truth. How about we just start with Majesty being a good card, and pwwb being an out to it and Dante at the same time?

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Patrick Hoban    6363
Phoenix Wing isn't a good out to Dante though. This isn't something I learned until this format, but it explains a lot in previous formats where I couldn't figure out why Phoenix Wing wasn't as good as it should have been (second Dragon Ruler format is the best example).

Essentially you're using a real card (Phoenix Wing) to get rid of a card they made for free and has already replaced itself. Some of the time they still have Graff/Cir/Scarm under Dante when you Wing Blast in which case you're using a real card go get rid of a card that already replaced itself and whatever was under it was another free card.

If you've only got 5-6 cards, you've got 1 less to actually deal with what's going on for each trap you have. 2 traps in a 5 card hand, 3 real cards. Monsters trump traps and traps are only good when you're winning. You never really want traps to an already established field, even if they're "good" vs it. Their advantage spirals too quickly at that point.
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Seki    44

I don't know what it is that makes you win tournaments, but it definitely isn't this "revelation" that everybody else figures out within seconds as well. You might as well write nothing if youre gonna "explain" to us that "Essentially you're using a real card (Phoenix Wing) to get rid of a card they made for free and has already replaced itself" and that it took you until this format to understand that.

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»Sharpman    4801

I don't know what it is that makes you win tournaments, but it definitely isn't this "revelation" that everybody else figures out within seconds as well. You might as well write nothing if youre gonna "explain" to us that "Essentially you're using a real card (Phoenix Wing) to get rid of a card they made for free and has already replaced itself" and that it took you until this format to understand that.


Mind sharing your game breaking thoughts? Not to get on Pat but he's pointing out a flaw in a card that most people consider to be a 3-of staple (or at least did) that might make the collective community actually progress in how they do stuff

Dgz deck discussion is already full of enough crap it amazes me you try and actually discourage an intelligent post (not saying he's 100% correct but it's at least discussion)
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Seki    44

I'm not claiming that I'm the one who has solved all of BA's issues (and if I did, I wouldn't be posting it here). Phoenix Wing Wind Blast is a VERY situational card and saying that it's always bad against a card like Dante is simply incorrect. Doing the math for the amount of situations in which it is, let's call it "okay" or good in relation to the amount of situations in which it's not optimal is obviously next to impossible (though if somebody feels challenged - go for it, I'm not trying to hinder you) but I think it's undeniable that sometimes it's even good against floating cards.

 

 

BA's main problem was, is and (unless some really broken cards are released, which I'm currently doubting) will be it's inherent inability to make big moves. Virgil mitigates the issue but it doesn't solve it. Countless times have I wished to make a 2nd Virgil during a turn in order to go for an OTK or simply clear a board.

 

It's similar to when Gadgets were a thing. Gadgets on their own didn't (and obviously still don't) do much and relied on some kind of support in order to compete (Fissure, Smashing Ground, Dimensional Prison, you name it..) but lost to cards like Heavy Storm (which in this comparison takes the place of floating Dante's or whatever).

 

BA is currently bound to run these cards even though they aren't always as good or effective as you would want them to be. If you haven't understood this a very long time ago and try to present this reasoning  as a big "revelation" to others then you might as well keep silent or at least suggest more effective replacements for these cards.

 

Again, I'm not saying I have the solution and I'm open for discussions. 

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»Sharpman    4801
I'll make a longer response later but the only reason karma cut/ pwwb make the cut in my main ATM is because Winda exists

Edit: believing a deck is absolutely "bound" to run certain cards is a nice recipe to miss opportunities

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Seki    44

One card that I have been trying to succesfully implement as a card that makes bigger moves possible is The Traveler and the Burning Abyss. I'm not sold on it yet though and I'll keep testing it.

 

Thoughts?

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»Noelle    5844

On traps that are only good against "established fields," I'd generally rather they be monsters that get over the established fields for a few reasons.

 

  • Monsters are good when they don't have a field, the discard traps do nothing. Sure you can say "well if they don't have cards on the field they aren't winning anyway," but if you have traps and not monsters in that situation, how are you getting in a winning positiom?
  • Monsters stay and traps do not, and in this day of mostly floater decks they're often free

The thing is it can't always work out this day because of decks restricted to like one or two summons a turn. This deck is different cus you can just play whatever Monsters you draw.

 

Also with the exception of "floodgates" I think summoning monsters into any other types of traps is better than MST/Night Beam them for two reasons.

 

  • If their trap didn't match-up with your Monsters, they're essentially down one card for free where you'd otherwise make it a real card by MST/Night Beaming it
  • When they don't have traps, the Monsters are just better to have than card like NIght Beam MST

Of course the huge problem is the best traps, floodgates. Instead of matching up with just one of your Monsters like a Karma Cut or Wing Blast or Bottomless etc would, floods match up with ALL of them, and in most cases decks don't have Monsters/ that can beat them (some exceptions in the past were Lyla, Kumoshromo, Blasters destroy effect, etc.) This deck has no such Monster. The closest part of your Burning Abyss cards that there is to being able to beat them is Lake, but that doesn't work against Vanity which is the most common main deck flood. (It does work vs Drain though.)

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While I don't agree with what seki posted I do agree that pat didn't really explain himself too well. Maybe I'm just one of those uneducated masses who doesn't get it straight away, but I still don't understand what he's trying to say. PWWB is bad because Dante exists? PWWB is bad to established boards? PWWB is bad because things float? I thought these were the exact reasons you played PWWB in the first place?! To out floaters and have a trap that is useful to an established board. Idk, I'll need it explained a bit more before I can have a whole opinion, I'm not gonna pretend like I understand just so I can fit in with the cool kids lol.

Essentially what I'm reading into it is "traps are bad because they trade one for one with cards that float or have already paid for themselves" and I agree and have argued the same post countlessly in the past. But I dont know if "traps are bad" follows into "you shouldn't play PWWB in the BA Mirror", it's not that black and white. PWWB is one of the best traps in the game, and while traps are bad, the best traps are still worthy of being played.
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Seki    44
So the general consensus seems to be that the discard traps suck.. and yet everybody runs them.

Does anybody else notice a slight contradiction?

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