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Original_Pwnage

New Goat Format War League

406 posts in this topic

Just saying, I'm speaking as the guy who the only  games I've dropped this whole tournament ( singular games or matches as a result) have been due to ring or bls or both. But still, I agree with Baazar.

 

banning ring I can somewhat get behind, as of being 3-1 

 

I've lost 

 1 game ( the match)  to Sanada  I 85% should not have , ( he also used it g3 to cement a victory, but almost 95% positive there's no way he could have lost) 

 

1 game to X Player ( Can't recall name) I 100% should not have he just drew ring as his only card 

 

As for bls 

 every match I have dropped a game has been to my opponent having a bls backed up with 1 of the revival cards for when I finally exhaust myself to clear it.

 

 

However,  these cards certainly should not be banned ( bls at least), like sure It's a sacky card I know that ( believe me, I've probably lost more game I shouldn't have between the past 2 goat wars I've played in to Topdeck Bls than anyone else) but it was a power card and feared card of the format , similar to ring. 

 

Banning PoG/DD though I do 100% agree makes MoF so much worse, like sure turn 1 trinity pieces plus set MoF happens, and sure there's only like 3 realistic  1 card outs  to my knowledge to deal with it (2 nocs, 1 exiled) , but it's literally the format, to play without them would kinda be like saying I want to play dragon mirrors, but I want to play before everyone realized 7 star sword is completely insane ( probably a really bad comparison, just first one off the top of my head). 

 

just my thoughts, from a guy that doesn't even get to play MoF or BLS  :'( 

 

banning power cards like those makes an average/above average player beat a worse player more often, but makes a very good player win less often against another good player, those cards lead to much more complex line of thought. making the whole game an attrition war for +1s doesn't make the format any more skillfull, people with bad fundamentals will lose but the games would be so static and linear. 

 

less potential for sacking doesn't mean more skill once you reach a certain point, and many games you lose thinking you got sacked might just be cause you can't play around some stuff, the reason goat format is skillfull is that it requires to play around and adapt to alot of different kinds of cards/approaches to win the game, cutting ways to win the game makes the game easier.

 

sure you would've beaten these opponents, but you winning does mean the game  is more skillfull?

 

not a personal atk to anyone, but especially if playing goat format, yugioh players should stop wastin they're time complaining and actually start thinkin how to approach things differently, don't be goats.

 

i think anyone actually good at the format will agree that stuff like serpent/ring/bls/pot of greed are actually healty once you master games, accepting an at least very low % of auto-won games is something you have to do any format you play/might think of, cutting these cards would lead to more unsolvable situations.

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Just saying, I'm speaking as the guy who the only  games I've dropped this whole tournament ( singular games or matches as a result) have been due to ring or bls or both. But still, I agree with Baazar.

 

banning ring I can somewhat get behind, as of being 3-1 

 

I've lost 

 1 game ( the match)  to Sanada  I 85% should not have , ( he also used it g3 to cement a victory, but almost 95% positive there's no way he could have lost) 

 

1 game to X Player ( Can't recall name) I 100% should not have he just drew ring as his only card 

 

As for bls 

 every match I have dropped a game has been to my opponent having a bls backed up with 1 of the revival cards for when I finally exhaust myself to clear it.

 

 

However,  these cards certainly should not be banned ( bls at least), like sure It's a sacky card I know that ( believe me, I've probably lost more game I shouldn't have between the past 2 goat wars I've played in to Topdeck Bls than anyone else) but it was a power card and feared card of the format , similar to ring. 

 

Banning PoG/DD though I do 100% agree makes MoF so much worse, like sure turn 1 trinity pieces plus set MoF happens, and sure there's only like 3 realistic  1 card outs  to my knowledge to deal with it (2 nocs, 1 exiled) , but it's literally the format, to play without them would kinda be like saying I want to play dragon mirrors, but I want to play before everyone realized 7 star sword is completely insane ( probably a really bad comparison, just first one off the top of my head). 

 

just my thoughts, from a guy that doesn't even get to play MoF or BLS  :'( 

 

banning power cards like those makes an average/above average player beat a worse player more often, but makes a very good player win less often against another good player, those cards lead to much more complex line of thought. making the whole game an attrition war for +1s doesn't make the format any more skillfull, people with bad fundamentals will lose but the games would be so static and linear. 

 

less potential for sacking doesn't mean more skill once you reach a certain point, and many games you lose thinking you got sacked might just be cause you can't play around some stuff, the reason goat format is skillfull is that it requires to play around and adapt to alot of different kinds of cards/approaches to win the game, cutting ways to win the game makes the game easier.

 

sure you would've beaten these opponents, but you winning does mean the game  is more skillfull?

 

not a personal atk to anyone, but especially if playing goat format, yugioh players should stop wastin they're time complaining and actually start thinkin how to approach things differently, don't be goats.

 

i think anyone actually good at the format will agree that stuff like serpent/ring/bls/pot of greed are actually healty once you master games, accepting an at least very low % of auto-won games is something you have to do any format you play/might think of, cutting these cards would lead to more unsolvable situations.

 

I'm even agreeing with you I don't understand why you'd quote me. 

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Just saying, I'm speaking as the guy who the only  games I've dropped this whole tournament ( singular games or matches as a result) have been due to ring or bls or both. But still, I agree with Baazar.

 

banning ring I can somewhat get behind, as of being 3-1 

 

I've lost 

 1 game ( the match)  to Sanada  I 85% should not have , ( he also used it g3 to cement a victory, but almost 95% positive there's no way he could have lost) 

 

1 game to X Player ( Can't recall name) I 100% should not have he just drew ring as his only card 

 

As for bls 

 every match I have dropped a game has been to my opponent having a bls backed up with 1 of the revival cards for when I finally exhaust myself to clear it.

 

 

However,  these cards certainly should not be banned ( bls at least), like sure It's a sacky card I know that ( believe me, I've probably lost more game I shouldn't have between the past 2 goat wars I've played in to Topdeck Bls than anyone else) but it was a power card and feared card of the format , similar to ring. 

 

Banning PoG/DD though I do 100% agree makes MoF so much worse, like sure turn 1 trinity pieces plus set MoF happens, and sure there's only like 3 realistic  1 card outs  to my knowledge to deal with it (2 nocs, 1 exiled) , but it's literally the format, to play without them would kinda be like saying I want to play dragon mirrors, but I want to play before everyone realized 7 star sword is completely insane ( probably a really bad comparison, just first one off the top of my head). 

 

just my thoughts, from a guy that doesn't even get to play MoF or BLS  :'( 

 

banning power cards like those makes an average/above average player beat a worse player more often, but makes a very good player win less often against another good player, those cards lead to much more complex line of thought. making the whole game an attrition war for +1s doesn't make the format any more skillfull, people with bad fundamentals will lose but the games would be so static and linear. 

 

less potential for sacking doesn't mean more skill once you reach a certain point, and many games you lose thinking you got sacked might just be cause you can't play around some stuff, the reason goat format is skillfull is that it requires to play around and adapt to alot of different kinds of cards/approaches to win the game, cutting ways to win the game makes the game easier.

 

sure you would've beaten these opponents, but you winning does mean the game  is more skillfull?

 

not a personal atk to anyone, but especially if playing goat format, yugioh players should stop wastin they're time complaining and actually start thinkin how to approach things differently, don't be goats.

 

i think anyone actually good at the format will agree that stuff like serpent/ring/bls/pot of greed are actually healty once you master games, accepting an at least very low % of auto-won games is something you have to do any format you play/might think of, cutting these cards would lead to more unsolvable situations.

 

 

More complex lines of thought?  I guess you mean by this did they set faith?  Should I play meta noc etc.  If you don't have these cards this is completely irrelevant and I've acknowledged the little skill these cards do add to the format.  I love how you suggest you are a bad player at goats if you think these cards should be gone.  Honestly, I think most of the good players agree with me, not all of them bother to post their thoughts on this because they don't feel like having a massive argument with a bunch of people who don't know what their talking about and can only make stupid 1 sentence statements on the subject.  The thing about saying mof is worse is obv true, but to think its bad is just flat-out wrong.  You still run 15-17 spells in a deck and the ability to reuse noc, meta, heavy storm, graceful charity etc. is still very good.  The thing about good players beating good players less is also just completely untrue.  If a good player plays another good player and one plays a early pog and duo obv they are very ahead in the game and while not 100% guarenteed to win, it is extremely likely they will.  I think your suggesting that it is a skillful play when 2 good players play if one of them bluffs a faith, draws out removal, then later plays a duo twice by setting a faith.  Personally, I think "pro" plays like this are very easy to make, and doesn't mean you outplayed anyone.  Yes, I'm only naming 1 random scenario where you can do "a skill play" with a power card.  I'm sure you can name several, this doesn't reinforce your argument in the least.  In one of earlier posts I actually did name a few other plays you can make with the cards but do not want to repeat or take the time to list all of them.  The cards are generally akin to the current ygo cards in that they just play themselves.  The small % of skilled plays that can be made with them is far outweighed by the 95% of the time you will be making mindless plays with them.

 

While I do think your a good player at goat format, you reasoning here is just wrong.  Your taking a small % of the card's uses and making it out to make the game so much better.  However, I do appreciate someone at least is taking the time to try to make a reasoned argument on the issue, and not just a retarded one sentence statement such as "faith will be bad".  I've had this discussion with you before, and will just agree to disagree.  I understand the points you are making, we just disagree on the emphasis your putting on the skill in winning a game by making some ridiculous power play.

 

Edit:  I have been trying goats out irl with banning pog duo and adding dark hole.  I actually think it's pretty good.  I know it sounds like its close to the 1 for 1 shit that sucked right after goats, but I think that format failing was for different reasons, such as reaper and don becoming so good due to cyber dragon existing and goat/book going to 1.  Also banning mirror force and limiting noc was bad, and treeborn frog combined with cyber dragon made monarchs pretty ridiculous especially since you basically had to run a bunch of non-chainables (3 saku and 2-3 widespread) even though mobius was around, just because of don/reaper being so good.

 

I'd also like to say that many people that play goats now did not play during goats.  This doesn't take away your right to have an  opinion in matters, but I'd like to point out that many of you that are decent/good players now would not have been without 10 years of hindsight to benefit from.  The meta has changed since actual goats, and with the benefit of a decade of hindsight it has improved.  However, if you can use this decade of hindsight to be able to play goats more competitively, why not also use this hindsight to make the format more competitive by modifying it?

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Just saying, I'm speaking as the guy who the only  games I've dropped this whole tournament ( singular games or matches as a result) have been due to ring or bls or both. But still, I agree with Baazar.

 

banning ring I can somewhat get behind, as of being 3-1 

 

I've lost 

 1 game ( the match)  to Sanada  I 85% should not have , ( he also used it g3 to cement a victory, but almost 95% positive there's no way he could have lost) 

 

1 game to X Player ( Can't recall name) I 100% should not have he just drew ring as his only card 

 

As for bls 

 every match I have dropped a game has been to my opponent having a bls backed up with 1 of the revival cards for when I finally exhaust myself to clear it.

 

 

However,  these cards certainly should not be banned ( bls at least), like sure It's a sacky card I know that ( believe me, I've probably lost more game I shouldn't have between the past 2 goat wars I've played in to Topdeck Bls than anyone else) but it was a power card and feared card of the format , similar to ring. 

 

Banning PoG/DD though I do 100% agree makes MoF so much worse, like sure turn 1 trinity pieces plus set MoF happens, and sure there's only like 3 realistic  1 card outs  to my knowledge to deal with it (2 nocs, 1 exiled) , but it's literally the format, to play without them would kinda be like saying I want to play dragon mirrors, but I want to play before everyone realized 7 star sword is completely insane ( probably a really bad comparison, just first one off the top of my head). 

 

just my thoughts, from a guy that doesn't even get to play MoF or BLS  :'( 

 

banning power cards like those makes an average/above average player beat a worse player more often, but makes a very good player win less often against another good player, those cards lead to much more complex line of thought. making the whole game an attrition war for +1s doesn't make the format any more skillfull, people with bad fundamentals will lose but the games would be so static and linear. 

 

less potential for sacking doesn't mean more skill once you reach a certain point, and many games you lose thinking you got sacked might just be cause you can't play around some stuff, the reason goat format is skillfull is that it requires to play around and adapt to alot of different kinds of cards/approaches to win the game, cutting ways to win the game makes the game easier.

 

sure you would've beaten these opponents, but you winning does mean the game  is more skillfull?

 

not a personal atk to anyone, but especially if playing goat format, yugioh players should stop wastin they're time complaining and actually start thinkin how to approach things differently, don't be goats.

 

i think anyone actually good at the format will agree that stuff like serpent/ring/bls/pot of greed are actually healty once you master games, accepting an at least very low % of auto-won games is something you have to do any format you play/might think of, cutting these cards would lead to more unsolvable situations.

 

 

More complex lines of thought?  I guess you mean by this did they set faith?  Should I play meta noc etc.  If you don't have these cards this is completely irrelevant and I've acknowledged the little skill these cards do add to the format.  I love how you suggest you are a bad player at goats if you think these cards should be gone.  Honestly, I think most of the good players agree with me, not all of them bother to post their thoughts on this because they don't feel like having a massive argument with a bunch of people who don't know what their talking about and can only make stupid 1 sentence statements on the subject.  The thing about saying mof is worse is obv true, but to think its bad is just flat-out wrong.  You still run 15-17 spells in a deck and the ability to reuse noc, meta, heavy storm, graceful charity etc. is still very good.  The thing about good players beating good players less is also just completely untrue.  If a good player plays another good player and one plays a early pog and duo obv they are very ahead in the game and while not 100% guarenteed to win, it is extremely likely they will.  I think your suggesting that it is a skillful play when 2 good players play if one of them bluffs a faith, draws out removal, then later plays a duo twice by setting a faith.  Personally, I think "pro" plays like this are very easy to make, and doesn't mean you outplayed anyone.  Yes, I'm only naming 1 random scenario where you can do "a skill play" with a power card.  I'm sure you can name several, this doesn't reinforce your argument in the least.  In one of earlier posts I actually did name a few other plays you can make with the cards but do not want to repeat or take the time to list all of them.  The cards are generally akin to the current ygo cards in that they just play themselves.  The small % of skilled plays that can be made with them is far outweighed by the 95% of the time you will be making mindless plays with them.

 

While I do think your a good player at goat format, you reasoning here is just wrong.  Your taking a small % of the card's uses and making it out to make the game so much better.  However, I do appreciate someone at least is taking the time to try to make a reasoned argument on the issue, and not just a retarded one sentence statement such as "faith will be bad".  I've had this discussion with you before, and will just agree to disagree.  I understand the points you are making, we just disagree on the emphasis your putting on the skill in winning a game by making some ridiculous power play.

 

Edit:  I have been trying goats out irl with banning pog duo and adding dark hole.  I actually think it's pretty good.  I know it sounds like its close to the 1 for 1 shit that sucked right after goats, but I think that format failing was for different reasons, such as reaper and don becoming so good due to cyber dragon existing and goat/book going to 1.  Also banning mirror force and limiting noc was bad, and treeborn frog combined with cyber dragon made monarchs pretty ridiculous especially since you basically had to run a bunch of non-chainables (3 saku and 2-3 widespread) even though mobius was around, just because of don/reaper being so good.

 

I'd also like to say that many people that play goats now did not play during goats.  This doesn't take away your right to have an  opinion in matters, but I'd like to point out that many of you that are decent/good players now would not have been without 10 years of hindsight to benefit from.  The meta has changed since actual goats, and with the benefit of a decade of hindsight it has improved.  However, if you can use this decade of hindsight to be able to play goats more competitively, why not also use this hindsight to make the format more competitive by modifying it?

 

 

you are taking into account the very small % of games in which someone does get pog+faith early, leading into some overwhelming advantage cause of Tsuku/other power cards drawn and the other player not getting outs or ways to match advantage.

these are the random games finishing cause of mof sacking, it's less than 10% of games for sure.

 

if all this overpowering doesn't happen on the first 2-3 turns ny other game is much longer and more complex than this, and this is thanks to stuff like pog/mof, cause even if i have +3 i have to know what are your outs or ways to come back at any point and play accordingly, stuff like pog, bls, ring, powerful mof flips  doesn't make the game more complex in a single situation but it does change how you plan your whole game, this is not modern yugioh where you get to set up your power play every game in the first few turns and win cause of that, most power plays need set-up, in goat format you might take 10 turns or more setting up the play you make to win, knowing that you are going to probably win that way since the start.

  having flip effects able to win games means you have to take into account many more things when planning a game, 

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I think the % is a little higher than 10%.  It's not just pog and faith as opening that can lead to large unfair advantage.  Basically any opening with a way to go up +2 even without faith such as pog/duo. charity sinster/ and pog/duo etc., or any of the pieces with faith can lead to huge advantage.  Pog is not that bad in itself, but when it snowballs and draws into more free pluses it is bad.  Duo is obv extremely devastating and combining it with any other advantage cards is leads to ridiculous advantage.  Even if it all doesn't happen one turn, but 2 turns in a row of free pluses while the other player has gotten none is just unfair.  I just think playing w/o pog and duo leads to more skilled games.  You still have to make reads involving magician of faith even without the two.  Just because you take out these cards does not by any means make faith bad, its just not OP.  I have played the format hundreds of times without them and believe this to be the case.  I think everyone would enjoy no exarion, no pog, no duo a lot if they would just give it a try.

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I dislike pot and duo simply because I hate being behind on turn 1 for no reason and I don't exactly feel great about early turn victories that involve them. Sure they don't happen often enough for it to really impact my enjoyment of the format, but when it does happen it's annoying. But if we're going down the rabbit hole of custom changes I'd like to see the following brought back.

Witch of the Black Forest
Change of Heart
Dark Hole
Raigeki

The spells are all varying payoff cards that are not guaranteed to break even and should add more depth and mind games. Witch, honestly it's just silly for it to be at 0 when Sangan is at 1.
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I dislike pot and duo simply because I hate being behind on turn 1 for no reason and I don't exactly feel great about early turn victories that involve them. Sure they don't happen often enough for it to really impact my enjoyment of the format, but when it does happen it's annoying. But if we're going down the rabbit hole of custom changes I'd like to see the following brought back.

Witch of the Black Forest
Change of Heart
Dark Hole
Raigeki

The spells are all varying payoff cards that are not guaranteed to break even and should add more depth and mind games. Witch, honestly it's just silly for it to be at 0 when Sangan is at 1.

Huh, now that im thinking about it, i really like change of heart, like it's only completely deadly when its down to like a topdeck war

But it positively addresses not getting put so far behind by trinity piece + mof

Is basically a nice one card removal for bls that doesn't make you worry about call or premat


Also change of heart, flip mof, change of heart, because we always need a little insanity ;) i'd +1 l: but on mobile, so plus one in spirit
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I dislike pot and duo simply because I hate being behind on turn 1 for no reason and I don't exactly feel great about early turn victories that involve them. Sure they don't happen often enough for it to really impact my enjoyment of the format, but when it does happen it's annoying. But if we're going down the rabbit hole of custom changes I'd like to see the following brought back.

Witch of the Black Forest
Change of Heart
Dark Hole
Raigeki

The spells are all varying payoff cards that are not guaranteed to break even and should add more depth and mind games. Witch, honestly it's just silly for it to be at 0 when Sangan is at 1.

Huh, now that im thinking about it, i really like change of heart, like it's only completely deadly when its down to like a topdeck war

But it positively addresses not getting put so far behind by trinity piece + mof

Is basically a nice one card removal for bls that doesn't make you worry about call or premat


Also change of heart, flip mof, change of heart, because we always need a little insanity ;) i'd +1 l2 but on mobile, so plus one in spirit
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Just taking out pog and duo and playing w/o exarion wouldn't drastically change things.  This is what I had in mind for a new tourney.  This would completely change the format, and seems crazy at first thought, but I'd be interested to test it out.  I will probably try this with someone on DN.  I can see how in theory the cards to an extent balance each other out somewhat, with you having to consider if they set witch, sangan, sinister before playing a dark hole, raigeki, or change of heart.  I think maybe just adding dark hole (and not raigeki also) would be enough though, but its a cool idea. 

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So only 3 games in round 3 left.  Animal479 and nickyR are the only 2-0's left so they have to play.  Kenzo28, jazzDgz, TheLux, and MrMcThrasher are the the only 1-1's left. One of the 1-1's will probably have to pm TheLux ( Scalding Tarn dgz name) to schedule a game since he doesn't really get on DN except to play for this.

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Magical yata/ library of alexandria, sunnyd is on dn now if u want to play your 3-1 match.

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I really liked playing with Dark hole, Raigeki and Witch. CoH, while I understand it counters MoF silliness, I don't like the random element of "did they set a flip eff or a witch/sangan/sinister?". I think no matter how "good" you are at "reads" there is no way to feel safe about playing CoH on face down monsters, and that's why I feel it is a subpar ban list answer to Faith. I also think it helps aggressive players to press through facedown monsters to get in damage.

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Raigeki comes back to current format after a decade and possibly comes back to goats after a decade also.

 

I do think just dark hole if either would be fine.

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is this over? when is there gonna be another one. 

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is this over? when is there gonna be another one. 

 

It's not over, will be another when this finishes in 2 or 3 weeks probably.  Btw, if any of other 1-1's are on, Kenzo28 is free to play right now.

 

Edit: Kenzo28 is still on if any of the other three 1-1's can play (MrMcThrasher, TheLux, and jazzDgz)

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I'm 2-1 and on for games. 

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Note: The guy running this league is banned on DG for a week LOL

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