Jump to content

Recommended Posts

+Urthor    10239

Dance princess doesn't count as a normal summon though.  Gishki chain is just a 7th Ju and whether you play it comes down to whether you think 6 or 7 is optimal

 

[spoiler]

QHDo7XA.png?1

S9ARqKE.png?1
ayuMC6w.png?1

Qko150k.png?1

[/spoiler]

 

There's the math for the relative jump in chance to open any single Ju vs opening doubles or more between 6 copies and 7.  You've just got to decide how you like the mathematics and whether the mathematics justify running what is in fact a slightly worse Ju. 

 

Looking at the math, it's almost exactly a 6.5% increase in a chance of getting at least one, but as a downside there's a 6.5% chance that you open doubles or higher.  And if you open at doubles or higher, you're effectively operating at a -1 for that turn aren't you?  

 

Plus given the fact that Chain is not exactly a manju, doesn't rota it's just a brainstorm, is the reason you don't see the best in the game running that extra Gishki chain.  They're (hopefully) done the math and seen that a 7th copy isn't really going to be optimal because Nekroz doesn't want to be taking that temporary minus to the number of combo pieces they'll have to play with in that first turn.  

 

Although, maybe vs the mirror if you play the LONG grind game, but in all honestly that Gishki Chain will be coming out 110% of the time in the mirror for a high impact side card, so technically it's just going to be slightly better vs the mirror g1, quite a lot worse vs rogue g1, then it'll get sided out instantly g2 and 3 for side options.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dirk    1974

This is the problem with advancing to the next level of discussion Mike, I was gonna make a post in your thread but never got around to it. How can we possibly break into a deeper intellectual debate when we constantly get retarded posts that don't actually further anything. The guy posting right above me ^ and the guy who repeated the warrior returning alive stuff have to be cut out unless they start talking about card interactions specifically (like you, urthor, ect.) I understand for the community as a whole it benefits for them to be in these discussions and shown the right direction, but it keeps us focused on catching other people up instead of furthering what we know

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if we move away from mirror matches i can see nekroz going into the ocg route of heroic champion cyber dragon. searchable by rota, gets u free cards, beats under vanity, helps u push dmg and great vs fiendishes and bts, however its awful vs shaddolls.

 

as for the argument of catastor i am really not seeing it. catastor like gungnir and armor are great to have in your deck but terrible to draw while ur bricking and/or ur opponents interacting with u thru mistake/mind crush. i still like the 1 wrarior returning over catastor because unlike cat i can make further plays when i brick by bringing back a brio/cclaus whereas cat has to bring back shurit, (and if ii used shurit for a ritual summon then i'm not bricking)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Elements    587

This is the problem with advancing to the next level of discussion Mike, I was gonna make a post in your thread but never got around to it. How can we possibly break into a deeper intellectual debate when we constantly get retarded posts that don't actually further anything. The guy posting right above me ^ and the guy who repeated the warrior returning alive stuff have to be cut out unless they start talking about card interactions specifically (like you, urthor, ect.) I understand for the community as a whole it benefits for them to be in these discussions and shown the right direction, but it keeps us focused on catching other people up instead of furthering what we know

 

i appreciate your frustration towards me man but i'm simply just, honestly looking for guidance. trying to scratch and crawl my way back into a game i havn't played for 3 years is really hard for me esp as everything i knew back then is irrelevant now and its really a struggle for me to forget all that and start fresh. im actually struggling to the point i'd rather not pick up my cards than pick them up and feel like a fucking spastic.

 

i apologise if you feel i'm not worth your time bro. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+Paraliel+    8123

i think warrior returning alive is worth using now, just to recycle brio more often and shurit/trish/claus

Not going to warn just yet, but read through the thread to see if something you've said has been addressed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh_The_Irony    772

Admittedly all of my testing has been for the ARG 25k so as a disclaimer I haven't actually played any games with a one Shurit.dek. Still, the problem with The Warrior Returning Alive/Catastor/Salvage, apart from the ones already mentioned, is that they basically mean you can't banish Shurit for Nekroz Mirror the turn you Cycle it to the grave. That's huge, especially since Djinn, and more importantly Lavalval Chain -> Valkyrus, aren't options anymore, so you don't have any really amazing plays turn 1 with just Kaleido and Cycle. Dance Princess on the other hand gets back Shurit without forcing you to wait on Mirror for a turn, but it does force you to play a less impactful Cycle. Playing Exa doesn't inhibit your plays at all, but you do actually have to get Exa to the grave, meaning you probably have to play Great Sorcerer. At that point if you're playing all of the oranges then Catastor might be worth it, especially since Manju/Senju being a rank 4 without using a ritual spell is pretty cool. This idea obviously works better for ARG format where you've got 3 Shurit and only 1 Unicore, but the theory is still sound for Konami. The problem is the existence of Towers Turbo alone means you can't really advocate playing Catastor over Decisive Armor as a dragon for Exa, so to play Catastor you have to play Dance Princess, Great Sorcerer, and Exa, without cutting Decisive Armor. I'm near certain some subset of those cards is correct now, but I don't know if you should be playing all of them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»TS Fearless    7185

This is the problem with advancing to the next level of discussion Mike, I was gonna make a post in your thread but never got around to it. How can we possibly break into a deeper intellectual debate when we constantly get retarded posts that don't actually further anything. The guy posting right above me ^ and the guy who repeated the warrior returning alive stuff have to be cut out unless they start talking about card interactions specifically (like you, urthor, ect.) I understand for the community as a whole it benefits for them to be in these discussions and shown the right direction, but it keeps us focused on catching other people up instead of furthering what we know


Yeah, you're right. These people need to be forced into actually reading before they post or lurking instead by a no mercy temp ban system. It will force lazy players who were going nowhere anyways to stop posting at all, and it will force bad posters who actually want to get better... Well, get better. Anyone who doesn't contribute to the discussion threads need to be discouraged from posting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»TS Fearless    7185

This is the problem with advancing to the next level of discussion Mike, I was gonna make a post in your thread but never got around to it. How can we possibly break into a deeper intellectual debate when we constantly get retarded posts that don't actually further anything. The guy posting right above me ^ and the guy who repeated the warrior returning alive stuff have to be cut out unless they start talking about card interactions specifically (like you, urthor, ect.) I understand for the community as a whole it benefits for them to be in these discussions and shown the right direction, but it keeps us focused on catching other people up instead of furthering what we know

Yeah, you're right. These people need to be forced into actually reading before they post or lurking instead by a no mercy temp ban system. It will force lazy players who were going nowhere anyways to stop posting at all, and it will force bad posters who actually want to get better... Well, get better. Anyone who doesn't contribute to the discussion threads needs to be discouraged from posting.

I have an idea to get people's guards down and give them an actual incentive to actually want to talk about any content or ideas they'd want to keep a secret. My computer hasn't been working but I think I'm just going to write it all up on mobile instead because it doesn't seem like it's going to get fixed within the next couple of days. If it works I can see these discussion threads thriving with talk BUT I still can't stop the shit posters from posting. Paraliel and Matt we really need you to think about being more strict on bans or I'm afraid the people that want to try to make this happen will give up on it, myself included.

EDIT: If there's a way to give me back mod powers just for Deck Discussion I could help you guys too. I can't really commit to being a full time mod but I can definitely take care of stuff in here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+Paraliel+    8123

 

This is the problem with advancing to the next level of discussion Mike, I was gonna make a post in your thread but never got around to it. How can we possibly break into a deeper intellectual debate when we constantly get retarded posts that don't actually further anything. The guy posting right above me ^ and the guy who repeated the warrior returning alive stuff have to be cut out unless they start talking about card interactions specifically (like you, urthor, ect.) I understand for the community as a whole it benefits for them to be in these discussions and shown the right direction, but it keeps us focused on catching other people up instead of furthering what we know


Yeah, you're right. These people need to be forced into actually reading before they post or lurking instead by a no mercy temp ban system. It will force lazy players who were going nowhere anyways to stop posting at all, and it will force bad posters who actually want to get better... Well, get better. Anyone who doesn't contribute to the discussion threads need to be discouraged from posting.

I have an idea to get people's guards down and give them an actual incentive to actually want to talk about any content or ideas they'd want to keep a secret. My computer hasn't been working but I think I'm just going to write it all up on mobile instead because it doesn't seem like it's going to get fixed within the next couple of days. If it works I can see these discussion threads thriving with talk BUT I still can't stop the shit posters from posting. Paraliel and Matt we really need you to think about being more strict on bans or I'm afraid the people that want to try to make this happen will give up on it, myself included.

 

I plan on being stricter, I'm only using verbals for now since we just recently had the talk and we want to transition smoothly without alienating people.

 

Just press the Report button as I'm constantly monitoring now and I'll look at it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+Paraliel+    8123

 

This is the problem with advancing to the next level of discussion Mike, I was gonna make a post in your thread but never got around to it. How can we possibly break into a deeper intellectual debate when we constantly get retarded posts that don't actually further anything. The guy posting right above me ^ and the guy who repeated the warrior returning alive stuff have to be cut out unless they start talking about card interactions specifically (like you, urthor, ect.) I understand for the community as a whole it benefits for them to be in these discussions and shown the right direction, but it keeps us focused on catching other people up instead of furthering what we know


Yeah, you're right. These people need to be forced into actually reading before they post or lurking instead by a no mercy temp ban system. It will force lazy players who were going nowhere anyways to stop posting at all, and it will force bad posters who actually want to get better... Well, get better. Anyone who doesn't contribute to the discussion threads need to be discouraged from posting.

 

I also disagree with this sentiment of "forcing people who were going nowhere to stop posting". The deck discussions are for everyone, and while it is the moderators job to ban people for breaking the rules or being lazy in a competitive section it is the USERs job to point out why someone's ideas are wrong. If it's been discussed and still merits discussion, this is something too. If something doesn't merit discussion anymore then yes that is warnable but thats why you report so someone like me can discern the difference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still getting the hang of all the new buttons Mike, gonna figure all that shit out today cus I have the time then I can be as strict as ideal.

 

We also can't stress the Report Button enough, we're probably gonna try to make that more apparent by putting that msg in more places, basically it replaces what the Neg button was supposed to be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»TS Fearless    7185
I agree with that but the idea was already argued against and instead of coming in with a counter argument someone else just said the same thing in a way that shows he didn't read any of the prior discussion (1 whole page) at all.

I love playing Devil's advocate and I'll argue an idea into the ground until there's a clear thought process behind why it should be ran or omitted. I also love helping people that have the drive themselves and it's obvious they are willing to put in the hard work themselves and just need a jumpstart. But it's usually pretty easy to tell those people vs people who post here mindlessly and ask for help. iamRatedR is behind but he's you can tell he's invested in this thread and trying to improve for himself and for the sake of discussion and other people's improvement. I may have been hard on him but I have no problem talking to him and helping him.

I know you can tell the difference between the motivated and the mindless and am confident in this because of the moderation team. Don't think of this as trying to bring up a dead forum, more so an elite forum reborn. It's open to the public but the public needs to at least try.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sanjura    6725
On phone, thought I saw somewhere someone mention Mask Change 2 into Acid. I brought this up when Nekroz first debuted and we were looking for ways to deal with Qlis. While this sounds neat at first, this really isn't practical. We can play through most face downs, it's the face-ups that give us the most trouble. More often than not, those face ups are either gonna negate Acid already or just flat out prevent it from hitting the field. Chaining Mask to Gungnir is a thing, but you're using 5-6 cards to get that off...so why aren't you just using something more universal to hit those floods?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yea dude if u thought mchange2 in ba wasn't minus enough, wait till u do it in nekroz

 

like seriously all ur fucking monsters can't be summoned under a flood gate and u want to summon 1 out UNDER A FLOOD GATE and masked change into acid to blow them up??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wiz Khalifta    74

I know we've talked about Warrior Returning Alive, but I'm not entirely sold on not playing at least a 1-of copy.

 

Wouldn't you argue that The Warrior Returning Alive really just helps your grind game?  Yeah, it's ass to open with, but it seems pretty good in a simplified game state as you'll most likely have mirrors in hand and drawing into it helps us cycle through our plays more.  Sure, there are things like Unicore that's a "searchable" Warrior Returning Alive, but now it can be used for other things.  In response to Oh_The_Irony's comment about it, you talked about how you can't banish the shurit the turn you cycled it to tthe grave?  Well in that sense aren't you just able to WRA it back to your hand and then use the mirror to tribute it from hand?  That way, it stays in grave for a follow up Mirror Play if need be (on top of its other merits.)

 

 

Another card that may have some merit is Aqua Spirit.  It tutors your rank 4 plays without wasting your normal summon.  But then again, I can see why it's aids in the sense that you're banishing nekroz monsters which could just be used for Exo-Mirror summons or ritual spell searches... not to mention it suffers the same fate as WRA it contributes to brick hands...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Punpun    428
I feel like heroic challenger assult halberd fits the bill for additional warriors to support 3 rota with 1 shurit. The card helps rank 4 plays without burining your normal and if it hits it can generate free cards by its self. overall 1700 is solid I feel the card is worth a look as it could be a nice addition to the deck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»TS Fearless    7185
That was so much better than the other idiot that posted.

While The Warrior Returning Alive does do all those things, we need to look at what the deck lost from the ban list to see what kind of replacements it needs. Djinn and Lavalval Chain for Valkyrus were both great turn 1 plays that are gone now. Then it lost a copy of Shurit which was also a good card in your opening hand to help get a Valk play off/let your Brios turn into a different card to complete your combo. We should be focusing our deckbuilding on the first turn because that's where we lost our power. Things like the 3rd ROTA are cards that become needed to help our opening hands be playable. We don't need cards that strengthen our grind game because we need to get there first. Some cards to strengthen our opening hands that we've already discussed are:

- Mathematician and Diva to go into Herald
- Shared Ride (situational because if all you have is Ride you can still get OTK'd)
- Shaddoll Fusion to make Annoyatyllis
- Book of Moon
- Maxed ROTA for more access to the first Shurit/Saves Brio search so you can complete your combo and end with Valk

Once were past the early game is when we should compare cards like The Warrior Returning Alive and Dance Princess. Past turn 1 is when we're going to need to re-use that Shrit. Naveen brought up how you have to wait on Nekroz Mirror in order to get back Shrit and while you can just get it back that same turn, you're losing out on Shrits search effect. Plus with Dance Princess, using it for a Cycle gets you back Unicore to help go into a Rank 4. This is important to note because if you use the Shrit you recycled that turn to Nekroz Mirror, getting the free Unicore makes it easier to go into Emeral to put back the Shrit turning your ROTAs into live cards again. Dance Princess is also a searchable level 4 monster to search to go into Rank 4s (not a relevant point if you're playing Sorc as well) against rogue which is important because Dweller and Exciton are both huge cards. TWRA just doesn't compare to Dance Princess to me. It takes a little extra setup (basically just planning out your ritual summons for that turn a little differently is all) but the payoff is so great that it seems worth it. I would like to understand why you think TWRA is better than Dance Princess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»TS Fearless    7185

I feel like heroic challenger assult halberd fits the bill for additional warriors to support 3 rota with 1 shurit. The card helps rank 4 plays without burining your normal and if it hits it can generate free cards by its self. overall 1700 is solid I feel the card is worth a look as it could be a nice addition to the deck.


Assault Halberd is 1800/200 and it does seem like the warrior with the best effect right now. With Laval gone and Valking being harder than before, I definitely think Math -> Herald has become more reliable than maxing 6 Ju's and Halberd being able to SS and go into a Rank 4 with Herald is really cool.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only problem I see with Halberd is that it relies on the opponent having a monster on board. People will still clear boards in the mirror for fear of Trishula (albeit not as much since it is harder to get that Valk, but it will still happen). This is not relevant for anything besides the mirror match but a valid point imo. Also, going first and opening it turn 1 seems very lackluster since it's just another normal summon that doesn't actually do anything.

 

If you're looking for a Warrior target that can be special summoned then I think Photon Thrasher deserves a mention as well. They both require you not to have a monster, but it's not as bad turn 1 because it can be special summoned first and helps facilitate rank 4 plays, and still gives you the freedom to summon a Manju/Senju or Mathematician into Herald. It not being able to attack with another board or having any other real effect is certainly a downside but I think it has similar potential. The biggest advantage that Halberd has is that it can be normal summoned.

 

Thrasher also outs Thunder King if that ever comes up (as long as they don't have backrow to stop your push, but then that isn't a fault of Thrasher). 2100 attack can be relevant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GerardoSDR    175
the more I think about it exa and sorcerer sound worse, last format we were cutting out armor and gungnir because its horrible to draw them, why would we add them now that we have less consistency? it just doesnt make much sense, you are just bricking your deck even more in a (failed) attempt of reusing shurit.

what I'm thinking is adding multiple copies of dance princes and maybe the third cycle, my reasoning for this is that dumping unicore to recover w/e shit and then cycle it back is a lot easier to pull than giving use to exa, specially if you happened to draw it, also dance princess is overall better than exa as it can get other cards instead of only shurit and has a relevant effect while on the field unlike sorcerer.
which brings me to what mike said, being able to have a good opening hand now that we lost djinn and lavalval chain should be the main focus of the discusion; back in wcq season I topped the event without using djinn but at the same time i wanted to give myself and edge in the mirror, I accomplished that by using 2 mind crush, 2 shared ride and 2 maxx c as each of those cards have their own disadvatages vs the mirror and other decks, it worked surprisingly better than I expected vs rogue and just as intended vs the mirror, I think the one that worked best was mind crush tbh as it was the most crippling in the mirror, maybe taking a similar aproach might be a good idea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wiz Khalifta    74

I completely agree in the sense that we need to maximize consistency early game.  I agree that ROTA maxed out at 3 is the correct number and whether we play another target is a whole different discussion (I personally am a fan of Thrasher for all the reasons listed previously and on top of that can do what Aqua Spirit does but is searchable).

 

 As for whether we go down the route of Math, Shadolls, Diva, or something completely different (I know that someone talked about Patrick using Hieratic Nekroz  in ARG format and whether or not that's relevant to Konami format is TBD) I cannot give much insight as I haven't done much extensive testing with those theories since most of my ideas are just thought-processed.

 

Once were past the early game is when we should compare cards like The Warrior Returning Alive and Dance Princess. Past turn 1 is when we're going to need to re-use that Shrit. Naveen brought up how you have to wait on Nekroz Mirror in order to get back Shrit and while you can just get it back that same turn, you're losing out on Shrits search effect. Plus with Dance Princess, using it for a Cycle gets you back Unicore to help go into a Rank 4. This is important to note because if you use the Shrit you recycled that turn to Nekroz Mirror, getting the free Unicore makes it easier to go into Emeral to put back the Shrit turning your ROTAs into live cards again. Dance Princess is also a searchable level 4 monster to search to go into Rank 4s (not a relevant point if you're playing Sorc as well) against rogue which is important because Dweller and Exciton are both huge cards. TWRA just doesn't compare to Dance Princess to me. It takes a little extra setup (basically just planning out your ritual summons for that turn a little differently is all) but the payoff is so great that it seems worth it. I would like to understand why you think TWRA is better than Dance Princess.

Sorry if I misinterpreted this section..

 

While I do advocate for TWRA, I'm not necessarily saying that TWRA should be played in place of a card like Dance Princess.  I think that Dance Princess is actually just nuts.  The fact that it baits out things like Warning, bottomless, breakthrough, etc.  means that your opponent isn't using those cards on your ritual monsters (i.e. Trishula?)  And the fact that it can get things you banished with your mirror searches are very good.

 

The thing I'm having difficulty understanding is what exactly you mean by "waiting on Nekroz Mirror in order to get back Shurit".  Assuming you're Cycling out a Shurit, you've already searched once meaning that you weren't going to get another search regardless.  In regards to you are talking about Nekroz Mirror not being able to banish your Shurit for a full tribute, what's to say that you couldn't just tribute one from hand?  On top of that, assuming you have an exo-mirror in hand already, you just TWRA Brio which tutors into ANY Nekroz Monster to follow up on your Shurit that was cycled in grave.

 

I'm saying that TWRA allows for more Ritual summons as it can be used as a full tribute a couple more times with TWRA.  Also, it can be good to Just TWRA Shurit/Brio back and just holding it to make Rhapsody hurt less.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yune    240

If you want to reuse Shurit, Salvage is really good. Other targets are Claus and Great Sorcerer. You can Salvage Shurit and Claus and go get Cycle, for example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dirk    1974

In the mirror match, you cant leave the shurit sit in your grave for a turn, because I think people will just rhapsody it away in the hopes that it sets you back. If you draw warrior returning or salvage after that it is bad, but if you have dance after that you are fine. Using them to add back claus in the late game is pointless since you will have access to all of your spells already

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×