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»TS Fearless    7185
The Problems with Nekroz
An article by Mike Steinman

Fix the early game
Fix the early game
Fix the early game
Fix the early game
Fix the early game

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»TS Fearless    7185

In the mirror match, you cant leave the shurit sit in your grave for a turn, because I think people will just rhapsody it away in the hopes that it sets you back. If you draw warrior returning or salvage after that it is bad, but if you have dance after that you are fine. Using them to add back claus in the late game is pointless since you will have access to all of your spells already


Another pro to Dance/Exa! And honestly probably the nail in the coffin to the TWRA/Salvage discussion. This is a great point.

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Elements    587

The Problems with Nekroz
An article by Mike Steinman

Fix the early game
Fix the early game
Fix the early game
Fix the early game
Fix the early game

 

I realised this straight away lol, even with my lack of understanding. 

 

i dont think the answer is simply just to add in exa/ great sorc etc and the problems go away. Those cards arent replacing whats been lost and they aren't adding anything to the early game.

 

I was watching a german tourney on stream today and saw eugen heidt using nekroz with exa and great sorcerer in. He proceeded to get otkd game one because his turn 1 play was to set mst or something and end because there isnt anything to do unless he had stuff to go off. It was plain to see theres just this gap and i think now the djinn locks is gone, decks that can exert early game pressure are going to do it with full force and nekroz just cant deal with that with the current way the decks are built.

 

This is why i was thinking about gishki chain. Mirror match aside, because you cant build a deck these days and it not have cards in it that are bad against one or more of the other decks. Its a 1800 stick with the ability to dig 3 cards into your deck, more than likely take one and then effectively stack your next 2 turns. I know theres all kinds of math involved and this card probably is a bad idea but perhaps it would aid in unbricking bad hands esp if people are looking to play dance princess, catastor etc etc. If folks have tried the card then please share your experiences with it.

 

For the most part, nekroz early game was to stop the opponent having theirs at the minimum as an unbroken lock usually meant the game. Once again we dont have that and that means theres potential for decks to join the tier and compete. Hell, ritual beasts can allow themselves to go second now :) haha

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wduartes    77

The Problems with Nekroz
An article by Mike Steinman

Fix the early game
Fix the early game
Fix the early game
Fix the early game
Fix the early game

i think that the limit on shurit its the same that the limit on Abyssgunde back on the day, there arent enough good cards to continue with the same gameplane as before.

We cant play upstars because after the second one they dont need to valk.
We cant play moray because 3x3 sucks.
Warriors dont have a mon that generates advantage on its own outside exiled force.
Rituals dont have a good generic support card outside preparations
We dont have good nekroz orange monsters that sirve to multiple things outside dance princess, and playing multiples doenst solve the turn 1 thing.
We should avoid cards like WRA, Catastor, etc.

We dont have good draw cards / searchers.

 

So, what can we do? Get some ideas from OCG, like:

a) Use shurit as a tool and not a central piece. For example, we can play different levels in the extradeck to give us more options to Kaleido like 3,7,10, wtc.
b) Use a couple of the "free slots" and use an alternative "shitty" engine to get more options ( deskbots, mathman / armaknight + dragon/bulb, non-ritual ghisky mons, chicken race,etc. )

c) Play " traps" to slowdown the mirror that can be used against non mirror matchs (books / raigeki / maxx C / veiler).

d) Other
 

 

Just a random note: I think that we cant stop using book of eclipse just because djinn doenst exist.

People are playing a lot of effect negation and sometimes resolving an exciton/trish under a L1T/BTS/Veiler can be a game breaker. 

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Gabe3Vino    77

The problem with WRA, Salvage, and the other Nekroz monsters is that they lose to first player who remembers that Necrovalley is insane. Like if you're replacing all the Djinn out cards with this stuff in the hopes of being able to reuse your Shurit, making your grind/mid game better, you're just losing faster to a set up a board + Necrovalley. Obviously solving the Shurit issue will be important, but I don't feel as though the answer lies in any cards which are beaten by something that was already semi-popular when Nekrox were more powerful. 

 

I haven't gotten a whole lot of time since the list dropped to really sharpen my ideas with this deck moving forward, but my initial feeling is that a build centered around Secret Village is going to be dominant. Even when Djinn was legal, Village was the better lock; now that Qli have shifted towards a spell-heavy/no-trap turbo style, Village is that much better. With Djinn gone, the majority of Nekroz players will blindly take out most anything that would have outed the Village lock. I think that kind of build, supported by an engine like Math + bulb to give Herald/Trish access while helping keep Spellcasters handy, will be really strong moving forward, since Herald helps a lot in the BA/Shaddoll match-up; two of the worst match-ups for said Village build.

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+Urthor    10239

The problem with WRA, Salvage, and the other Nekroz monsters is that they lose to first player who remembers that Necrovalley is insane. Like if you're replacing all the Djinn out cards with this stuff in the hopes of being able to reuse your Shurit, making your grind/mid game better, you're just losing faster to a set up a board + Necrovalley. Obviously solving the Shurit issue will be important, but I don't feel as though the answer lies in any cards which are beaten by something that was already semi-popular when Nekrox were more powerful. 

 

I haven't gotten a whole lot of time since the list dropped to really sharpen my ideas with this deck moving forward, but my initial feeling is that a build centered around Secret Village is going to be dominant. Even when Djinn was legal, Village was the better lock; now that Qli have shifted towards a spell-heavy/no-trap turbo style, Village is that much better. With Djinn gone, the majority of Nekroz players will blindly take out most anything that would have outed the Village lock. I think that kind of build, supported by an engine like Math + bulb to give Herald/Trish access while helping keep Spellcasters handy, will be really strong moving forward, since Herald helps a lot in the BA/Shaddoll match-up; two of the worst match-ups for said Village build.

 

You're pretty much right, the long game combo pieces are pretty bad post side when people deploy floodgates in the Nekroz mirror, they're essentially cards that play the "fair" Nekroz game better at the end of the day, so they'll basically just be something to consider but move to the side once people catch up and shift to the "unfair" Nekroz game.   

 

The thing is, pre-side combo pieces like the monsters are going to be good vs Nekroz AND not Nekroz.  Even if they lose to Necrovalley post side, fact is there's Qliphort and BA to keep people honest and stop them presiding for Nekroz.   So I'm more than happy to combo up g1, then I can shift to my dedicated sideplan g2.  

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What are you looking at that will play Necrovalley?
Certainly not Shaddoll, BA, or Satellars, and Qliphort already has L1T and Reqliate Skill Drain.

Granted Valley may be the better card overall, but not many people are using it because Ju into Unicore into Exciton blows Necrovalley out along with whatever else they had on the field.

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+Urthor    10239

Incidentally, although I just read it, Eccentric Archfiend could be the most important card from the new set by far.  It outs EVERY single floodgate in the game, except Majesty's fiend and Anti Spell Fragrance.  Practically every single last one.

 

That's the solution to the emptiness paradox more than likely, it's the first card that outs s/ts and monsters except for BA's discard traps.     

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Blacklisted    1334

So I did give Wavering Eyes + Zefrasaber a go, and most of the time its great against qlips but the same boat as fairy wind, it gets countered by their wavering eyes. Also if you draw Zefra first, you can put it in the pendulum zone and get a free banish as well. Perhaps Fairy wind might just be better because it hits flood gates./

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Squiddy    9278

ya eccentric is amazing its relly popular in the ocg too. its so flexible and replaces the problem that removal had by condensing it into one cart, so u dont have to play and draw multiple different ones like mst/decree/eclipse/hole like u did last format

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+Urthor    10239

What are you looking at that will play Necrovalley?
Certainly not Shaddoll, BA, or Satellars, and Qliphort already has L1T and Reqliate Skill Drain.

Granted Valley may be the better card overall, but not many people are using it because Ju into Unicore into Exciton blows Necrovalley out along with whatever else they had on the field.

 

Whether it's Necrovalley or mistake or anything else, there will be floods of some kind, and you will want to be using some of your own pretty much.  Valley's pretty good in BA though, even if it's not optimal it's like mistake in Nekroz, hurts them way more than it hurts you if you go double dante Necrovalley, or Necrovalley Dante Mechequipped Angineer with Farfa to disrupt.  

 

 

THe other new card from the set is a quickplay spell version of mistake.  I forgot the name but it reminds me of Different Dimension Grounds, probably the first secret tech on Duelistgroundz back in the day, in that it's just like a version of Macrocosmos you physically cannot MST.  Honestly the card might just tip the equation against Nekroz completely, and make Kroz the second best deck.  

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Berdversary    184

The card's name you are looking for is Wrongful Arrest, but that's tentative. The card gives you a tremendous advantage when forced to go first, however it lingers until the end of your next turn so the ideal scenario would be to create a board (the usual 2-turn clock when going second) while sculpting your hand for the following turn. This might end up being inferior to simply floodgating the opponent, but being able to have an "improved" version of Mistake (in the sense that it has less counters ie MST) appears worthwhile if not increasing the copies of Mistake you can possibly maindeck to 6.

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fractal    2515

Ok, so, I have very little understanding of this Deck outside of (what should be) pretty basic stuff. Valk your boards clean, Valk OTKs, Jus to get what you need, resource management with Mirrors, etc. What I don't know is, if the issue is the early game, what are you ideally, in a perfect scenario, trying to do with your first 1-3 turns?

 

From what I can tell, you have 8 ways to tutor for Ritual Monsters (6 Jus, 2 Brio), and 8-11 ways to tutor for Ritual Spells (2 Brio, 3 Jus, 3 Claus, and by extension, a potential 9 if you play 3 RotA), not including the Mirrors themselves. Is the issue not getting value from your Ritual Summons? That's what I see with everyone wondering what to do with 1 Shurit.

 

I also see people keeping count of Normal Summons. I don't think that adding Math and Bulb are going to help in the slightest. In order to see Math before Bulb, and consistently enough to do so before drawing the Bulb (which I can only imagine would be god awful outside of using a couple Jus/1 Ju with to summon Trish/Catastor), you have to play at least 2 Math, which jumps you to 10 Normal Summons. Also, with that play, Herald just adds more tutors for cards that aren't Shurit if the issue is not being able to access Shurit.

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if u go 1st off u want to do a valk play with manju in order to draw a protection card and end with 5+valk

 

if u go 2nd u want to just do damage and try to draw a protection spell+valk

 

if this goes on and both players just trade valks, then the first player to waste all his ritual spells to summon valk will lose if neither player draws any play stoppers.

 

with only 1 shurit this will be even harder as if u remove ur shurit with mirorr on your second valk summon then ur gonna have trouble summoning valks for the rest of the game.

 

this dramatically changes the way ur supposed to play going 1st. if ur forced to go 1st and valk using shurit, then ur gonna need to either warrior returning it back or core it back (which means u cant core for valk) because ur opp can rapsody it to ruin ur life and prevent all further valk plays.this is why warrior would be better than cat cuz ur not going to cat back ur shurit t1. it also means that realitsically u want to do the ju scope core valk combo instead as it saves u a shurit, but it is weak to maxx c and u lose a core and a valk and still need to draw a core/valk off ur emeral/valk.

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thunderman    18

Been playing with exa abit, and it has quite a decent turn 1 interaction with valk in that Ju + Any 2 of Valk/Clausolus/Exa (with Ju searching the missing piece)

results in a 5 card hand + a mirror via  claus > exo mirror banish claus and send exa from hand, but of course you need to be running a dragon for it to work (decisive armor has been auto include for me considering the current popularity of Qli turbo).

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Oh_The_Irony    772

Incidentally, although I just read it, Eccentric Archfiend could be the most important card from the new set by far.  It outs EVERY single floodgate in the game, except Majesty's fiend and Anti Spell Fragrance.  Practically every single last one.

 

That's the solution to the emptiness paradox more than likely, it's the first card that outs s/ts and monsters except for BA's discard traps.     

 

It doesn't out Secret Village + Gungnir though which will probably be one of the more common floodgates. 

 

As a side note, how much does 1000 extra life matter in the mirror? 2000 makes it so you can take an attack you would probably Valkyrus otherwise, but 1000 is pretty iffy. Are there any other specific interactions worth noting that would discourage someone from playing just one Upstart Goblin?

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»Pengwan    7881

Eccentric Archfiend is searchable through Scarm though. 

Archfiend Hieress is better if you are just trying to search Eccentric.

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Virtuoso    95

eccentric doesnt really do anything that shaddoll dragon cant. the backrow pop is a bit more immediate, but you cant pop ASF or village with it or anything so you are still leaving some bases to be covered by your answer cards.

 

with qli towers running around and ASF as popular as ive seen it, there is no real reason to not use typhoon as even primary backrow removal. the fact that it doesnt hit facedowns is usually irrelevant as popping FD is usually just a drop in the water. understandably, easy access to king crab does out towers, but the truth remains is that typhoon in hand keeps the doctors away

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Catasterism    401

 

Eccentric Archfiend is searchable through Scarm though. 

Archfiend Hieress is better if you are just trying to search Eccentric.

 

 

Mostly because Scarm only searches Dark fiends and Eccentric is Light.

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The obvious plus to Eccentric Archfiend is it goes hand in hand with Wavering Eyes, letting you pop 2 scales and add another removal card.
I'd still play Typhoon first and foremost but maining Archfiend as generic removal and siding in Wavering Eyes seems like a decent option to have.

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Blacklisted    1334

I tested a Catastor and its realistically not that bad (I found it more useful than Exa but perhaps i played exa wrong). Anyway, it turns manju into a Wolfbark when you use it to bring back a Great sorc and make a rank 4 play. Or just bringing back a Shurit.

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Fullerene60    404

I think that getting to claus early will help solve the early game issue brought up by fearless. I am arguing that we should run 3 clausolas over the standard 2.

The best early game plays we have involve valky. Without shurit the easiest way to drop valk is with kaliedo. Only 2 monsters combo with valk on kaleido and we are already maxing out on one (unicore), we should be maxing out on both.

veiler will play a key role in this type of gameplan as we can protect valk in the mirror with it, or we can summon it off of a valk+claus play off of kaleido and end with valk+ arc light.

You could also summon a mathematician off of this play and try to make the invoker nat beast play. Tributing off the invoker to get a fresh card.

Claus is a very easy way to add more monsters to grave early game and sets up this neat examirror combo. --
Claus+exa+ju= claus->mirror, ju->valk, mirror (trib claus+exa)->summon valk and search catastor/decisive. From this point you can catastor back exa for 6300 or you can just swing with valk and ju for 4300 and tribute both to draw 2 and get a spell search. Your end hand would be 2 fresh cards, a decisive/catastor and a spell along with an exa in grave.

Claus and brio are really the only 2 nekroz monsters that can jump out of the gate early game. We should play maximum copies of both.

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