Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Knight-    6

yeah this deck is in such a weird spot atm, and I'm not really sure what the solution is. 

It feels like the deck kills itself, just because of the existence of the mirror. Right now, with the current build that's been played, you basically have 2 options a) Main deck Rides and give yourself the advantage in the mirror, but autolose to Mistake/Vanity's or b) Main MSTs but be at a severe disadvantage in the mirror. I struggle main deck anything that's going to make their MST's live and Mind Crush just seems worse in the mirror than Ride, especially because they MAY be playing the MST's for rogue and suddenly their live in the mirror.

The discussion that happened in the Shared Ride thread brought up some interesting points and I'd definitely recommend everyone go read through the few comments. Steinman makes an interesting point about the card, saying that, by playing it, you don't necessarily have to follow the rules of the mirror, ie. clearing the board every turn and how if you ride on their turn and draw cards, if they don't have the ride to dig for valk you will otk next turn, meaning they must stop or lose. 

The last paragraph is really interesting too.
 

 

 


If you don't want to play a card that's mediocre vs other matchups, play a different deck. There's no reason to play Nekroz mained for rogue. Why not just play Burning Abyss or something built towards rogue then side for Nekroz. At least you have a chance vs Nekroz game 1 that way. If you want to play the powerful deck, you have to make that sacrifice. You'll lose more games using a different deck just because it's bad than you will playing Nekroz and drawing mirror cards vs rogue game 1 and losing to floodgates. The difference isn't that huge, but it's huge for Nekroz to be significantly more dominant every tournament.

 

How correct this statement is, idk. I believe this applies when you're facing a field that is similar to nats, of like 50%Nekroz/50% everything else, but with the current diversity, it seems incorrect to dedicate your game 1 to winning the mirror, then hoping to when g2/g3 AFTER siding when MORE floods come in. The mirror also seems a lot more skillful, esp after the banlist. Sure one player can brick or draw the vanity, but for the most part it comes down to the better player will win a grindy resource game, whereas vs. rogue g2/g3 it's just can i beat his floods with my flood hate. 

I think Squiddy is probably correct with how the deck should be played atm. I actually just read his post thoroughly and it's very similar to my previous paragraph. Basically he says beat everything else g1 by making sure you can play YGO, then just being better in the mirror. Or we can go the direction of finding another engine to play, such as Dolls or Math. I struggle to play math because of consistency issues, I still believe that Emeral/Valk is a better t1 play a majority of the time, sure you can autowin a few games by going Nat Beast, but the requirements seem much steeper to pull off Nat Beast. I'm like 99% sure that, in order to go Emeral Valk by going Ju>Kaleido-Unicore>Cycle/Mirror-Valk, it requires this: 1 Ju + 2 of the following(no multiples): Brio, Claus, Unicore, Kaliedo, Shurit, ROTA + 1 of the following: Valk, Cycle, Mirror. Keep in mind there are also other ways to Valk away your board, this is just the most optimal. I'm not gonna state an opinion on the Dolls until I get a chance to test, but it seems decent. Is it possible that a middle ground could be found, where Anoya serves as your advantage in the mirror, and you can play MSTs to win rogue? I'd love to hear your opinion on that.

Sorry if I rambled a bit, just wanted to get all my thoughts put somewhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GerardoSDR    175

the problem with that game plan (beating everything else g1 by making sure you can play YGO, then just being better in the mirror) is that the mirror match has a lot of variance which makes it really hard to win even if you are better if your opponent simply had a better hand or you went first, I think that perhaps the solution to the nekroz vs rogue problem might be to simply focus on the mirror g1, with burning abyss still being kinda popular it becomes suicidal for people to be maining floodgates vs nekroz, which brings on the usual issue with anti-meta decks, they barely work because while the best deck only has to worry about the mirror and the floodgates, the anti-meta decks have to worry about nekroz, burning, qli, shaddoll, satellar and so on. Because of this usually if you survive the first 3-4 rounds you can be confident to encounter only mirror matches the rest of the tournament

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Knight-    6

So rather than build a deck to beat the majority of the pool, build a deck that beats the top of the pool in skill and let your skill get you there versus the rest of it? The only problem is how certain are the mirrors once you hit that top cut. Also one positive to your answer is that Ride still 1 for 1's versus most meta decks and can 2 for 1 or even 3 for 1 versus Qlis. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GerardoSDR    175

your deck engine is inherently better than theirs, you are more likely to overwhelm them than they to draw one of their 3 copies of mistake, and the thing is basically that, only vanity's emptiness, skill drain, lose 1 turn and mistake can win you g1, I rather give myself better chances in the match that is a lot more difficult (the mirror), I mean whats the point in beating all those decks if you are going to lose in top vs nekroz or not even toping if you play vs a lot of nekroz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Virtuoso    95

i think you are confusing nekroz winning an event with a lot of mistakes (the card), and you individually winning an event with a lot of mistakes

 

yes its likely nekroz will still win the event with a bunch of jihadist shaddolls, but if you take that info and translate it to "since nekroz will probably win, mistake isnt a problem for me". nah thats not true, those jihadists will still take many people down with them and whether or not you are one is what you are building for

 

the nekroz mirror is pretty fair after this last list. if you want to blame any overall factor in losing the mirror now its probably just your inability to resolve jus. even trying to next level the mirror usually just boils down to some unexpected backrow. 

 

all building for the mirror means to me is the in/exclusion of gung/da in the main

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
902    1780

I don't know why players think playing MST means you auto lose the mirror match game 1. Nekroz mirrors are usually decided within the first 2-4 turns, so having a dead card isn't the end of the world. It's unlikely you'll draw into more MSTs. Even if you do, there are a lot of players playing traps like Breakthrough Skill, Torrential, Vanity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TFJ    632

I don't know why players think playing MST means you auto lose the mirror match game 1. Nekroz mirrors are usually decided within the first 2-4 turns, so having a dead card isn't the end of the world. It's unlikely you'll draw into more MSTs. Even if you do, there are a lot of players playing traps like Breakthrough Skill, Torrential, Vanity.

I agree we over emphasize MST in this discussion. I don't want my MST to be dead in hand (legitimate). I dont want to turn on their dead MSTs (not legitimate).

That said, if you are arguing that the game is decided in the first 4 turns. Then that imo emphasizes the importance of not having the dead card. So maybe I misunderstood you. Unless you consider 4 turns a long game where you will see quite a few cards where you have a chance to pull out.
Of course 1 dead card isn't the end. But if it cuts your combo short, while they have it. That is the problem we all know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Knight-    6

That's partially why I am swayed toward maining for rogue with MST's over maining for the mirror. Drawing an MST and having no rides puts you at a disadvantage in the mirror, but you don't autolose. Don't have the MST when they flip Mistake/Vanity and you pretty much do though. 

There's also the option of playing both MST's and Rides but idk if there's space for that without hitting the engine of the deck.  There's also the option of playing cards that are decent against both but I'm not sure if any card exists that accomplishes the similar things as Ride and MST. Maxx C gives you more cards like Ride but they can just search everything they need to go off next turn, and then in the other matchups the cards it gives you are irrelevant if you don't have outs in your deck to draw into. I'm actually 99% sure that bc of this Maxx C doesn't have a spot in the deck's main or side, but I'm pretty sure a majority of us didn't have it anyways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Igknight players aren't using Maxx "C" perhaps we should be siding out Trishula against competent Igknight duelists. They'll empty hand barring hand traps but hand traps such as Droll and Veiler shall stop your Trish meaning the only one that you'll really be able to resolve Trishula under would be Maxx "C". Hell, even if they're using Maxx "C" if that card is the only case in which they'll have cards in hand to Trishula that's only one situation whereas you won't be able to use it in any other situation. Against worse players they may not be as competent and thus could end with cards in hand to Trishula, rather they will or won't is up to you to gauge (I dislike the "If they're bad you'll win anyway" argument as it places more weight on technical play making up for faulty deck building choices which isn't a good idea to prioritize in 2015 when floods can just make or break the match, plus I think that argument shuts off and ignores actual theory regarding that situation, much like when people cover black and white areas with "gray area" when it does not apply.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Knight-    6
Using that logic, should Trishula also be sided out in mirrors against competent players..? Currently I can see where you're going saying this, but does Trishula have no applications against the deck? The dmg can help OTK going 2nd, i havent looked into the deck too much but doesnt trishulas protection effect also have applications bc the deck clears your stuff and does dmg? I think the answer to your q will be answered as a standard build and approach to the deck becomes more established

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Knight-    6
also regarding your statements with good/bad players, shouldnt we make the assumption that every single person we play is competent and will make the optimal plays/siding choices/etc.?

actually lemme expand on this in a more general discussion way, bc i believe theres a few situations and approaches to the good/bad players thing. i think we all instantly start taking in how skillful our opponent is when the match starts, from their appearance/presentation/actions etc., but for you guys does this ever change how you guys side and play the game? More importantly, do misplays ever affect how you side and play? This is prob not the best example, but for the sake of the explanation lets say for some reason siding out trish became standard in mirrors. if your opp left a monster on the board even tho he could have valked it away or something, and you could not punish it w a trish, would you make the 'suboptimal' siding choice of keeping trish in and assuming the opp will misplay again? should siding be reactive and change not only based on the cards we see our opponent playing, but also how they play the deck?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

also regarding your statements with good/bad players, shouldnt we make the assumption that every single person we play is competent and will make the optimal plays/siding choices/etc.?

 

Of course not, because that just isn't the truth lol. Gauging how good your opponent is and acting correspondingly is something required in perfecting technical play.

 

Anyway, there actually is an argument for siding out Trishula in the mirror against competent players too but the difference is I believe there are situations in the mirror that can lead to a case where the right play leaves you vulnerable to Trishula. In the Igknight deck, I see no such situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Warthog    165
I think it will take sometime for Igknight to evolve into a point that there should be no Trishula but depending on the hand trap involved you can still main some good shit like BoM to get your plays to go through. You can also try and bait Veiler on something else.

With Droll are we talking about one card in hand type of scenerios with only card in hand is Droll or Veiler baiting out Trish? Other than that can't think of a lot of ways to get the Trish out and resolve other than getting cards in your opponent's hand (One Day/Eclipse perhaps).

If you're playing a good player, the chance of getting them Trish ed is tough anyways unless you put them in a shitty position in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wiggins    84

I wouldn't say mained MST results in an auto-loss in the mirror. Some builds are maining Torrential Tribute, Vanity's Emptiness and perhaps even Breakthrough Skill (considering the additional space), which can result in a blowout, so MST mediates that issue, and allows plays to go through.

 

The issue I'm finding is that even though the deck has more space and doesn't have to include less consistent cards (Djinn, Djinn outs) it has less options, with only one Shurit and no Chain, and other decks still have all of their Nekroz hate if not more when considering cards like Retaliaing "C".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sanjura    6725
but that doesn't even sound remotely good at all? I'm not gonna remove combo cards or cards that #valuevalk gets mileage out of just so I can side a shitton more,when in reality, I can side the same shit I've been using with better results and less dedicated space.


Retaliating C isn't even that bad considering you can just stop what you're doing and run it over. It's only annoying when they protect it or god forbid summon Glow-Up on their turn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Warthog    165
Eccentrick is definitely more versatile card but I wouldn't go all out and side multiple Wavering Eyes to support it. However, it is good enough to have a copy or in the side if you're playing pendulums. We're not Qlips or Igknight where we'd get full value and I'd rather capitalize on Typhoon to interrupt my opponent on any turn. I started siding Eccentrick and it does exactly what you want it to do and that is to clear floods and personally think it's good enough to hit any side deck that fears floods or is easily searchable in.

Retaliating C I have considered just to put a nail in the Shaddoll coffin. At the very least it will replace itself and banish fusion/shaddolls.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nephilim    20

I've been having a relative amount of success with the following list at my local tournaments, consistently placing 1st and 2nd. 
3 Senju

3 Manju

3 Unicore

3 Valkyrus

2 Brionac

2 Clausolas

2 Maxx 'C'

1 Trishula

1 Decisive Armor

1 Gungnir

1 Shurit

1 Dance Princess

 

3 Mystical Space Typhoon

3 Reinforcement of the Army

2 Kaleidoscope

2 Mirror

2 Cycle

1 Book of Moon

1 Raigeki

1 Preparation of Rites

 

2 Aquamirror Cycle

 

Extra:

2 Herald of the Arc Light

1 Leo, Keeper of the Sacred Tree

1 Star Eater

1 Blue-Eyes Ultimate Dragon

1 Abyss Dweller

1 Number 101

1 Castel

1 Exciton Knight

1 GaGaGa Cowboy

1 Diamond Dire Wolf

1 Daigusto Emeral

1 Number 80

1 Number 103

1 Dark Rebellion XYZ Dragon

 

Side:

2 Artifact Lancea

2 Effect Veiler

2 Fire Hand

2 Ice Hand

2 Shadow-Imprisoning Mirror

2 Fairy Wind

1 Vanity's Emptiness

2 De-Fusion

 

I have been flip-flopping a few cards in this list depending on how i feel really, i was playing Upstarts for a while but cut them out for 2 Maxx 'C' and the third RotA recently, and have liked it more. Having more outs to Claus and Shurit is really essential, especially in the early game.

Aquamirror Cycle is an interesting card and I'm not really sure how i feel about it despite having played it since the new list was released. It has quite a bit of flexibility, and you can really plus when your opponent tries to say, 101 your trish and you just get so much advantage. There hasn't been a point where i felt like it was really dead or useless even when i open with both of them, which i have done a few times.

I personally believe maining MST is the correct choice, at least for this portion of the format, where nothing is very defined. Also i am not extremely concerned with the mirror match as i have a more Shaddoll-heavy meta in my area, hence the heavy side for them and mained MSTs for floodgates.

I also believe that Decisive armor is the absolute nut. That card has been extremely clutch, from outing Spell Canceller T1 with Dance Princess, to being a 3300 beater to smash over anything, as well as single handedly winning me the Shaddoll matchup a few times. Please do not skip out on this card.

Gungnir is optional, but i am trying it right now, and it has been pretty good for protecting my Nekroz cards rather than popping something with its on-field effect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Warthog    165
If you have a Shaddoll infested local why no Diamond in the extra? Not a fan of 103, Leo nor Rebellion. Definitely some room for it. You probably will have more success with Retaliating C than SIM as they are similar ad work going second and first. Not a fan of all the main deck choices but think Aquamirror Cycle is neat. Reason I like it is because it is an interesting card when you are made/chosen to go first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nephilim    20

What Main deck choices do you not agree with? I don't play Diamond because i don't own one lol, absolutely would play it if i did. XYZ Dragon is basically filler, and i like 103 a lot for a multitude of matchups. I will put in Retaliating C immediately over SIMs when i get them as well, haven't gotten any of the new set yet. Why do you not like Leo? Its a Kaleido target for Brio+Unicore or Gungnir+Claus, because those situations do come up, and i might as well play the cards for those situations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Squiddy    9278

has the idea of trick clown come up in this deck yet? even though chain is baned with cycle its a 1 cart rank 4 if u resurrect unicore, and combos well with thousand blade if u play 3 assault halberd to pair with the reinforcemints. with exa u can also summon trishula. i think accessing rank 4s are pretty important right now in almost every matchup, like crab vs qliphort, dweller vs ba, diamond vs dolls plus it lets u pleaides with ptolemaios. and since djinn is gone halberd could be really useful to double up on easy emeral or number 80 in the mirror and u can force the valk or grind them with the searches (|:|)

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Warthog    165
Just not a fan of Maxx right now but everything else is standard I suppose. Don't like it for the mirror nor vs anything really other than maybe BA and Teller which you are pretty much guaranteed two draws. I would definitely pick up Diamond for your meta.

Not a fan for Halberd because I feel Thrasher is just that much better and doesn't rely on my opponent having a monster to make a play. I would have considered Clown but Chains absence hurts the consistency of the idea.

Juggler and Hat Tricker are a better idea. You can block damage with Juggler or use it for ritual fodder, then search for Hat Tricker.

Other old ideas I threw around was King Feral Imp and Kagetokage or Gigabyte to help rank 4 engines. Even if it is just one copy it sets up the Emeral / rank 4 play next turn. Reason why I didn't mess with the idea too much was extra deck space but may explore the idea again as there isn't too much dedication to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×