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.Sammy    41

I want to touch upon the 2:1:1 Shritt - Mage - Dancer ratio.

 

Do we think this is correct because 3 Shritt is too many when we are using Mage and Dancer. Then Mage and Dancer both have their applications that can't be ignored as 1-ofs. Dancer recycles our other 1-ofs which is awesome and also makes sure our banished Nekroz are never out of reach. Archmage I'm not really sure what he can offer outside of setting up searches. Oh and making sure both Valk and your in-grave rituals are live.

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Tingy    463

i personally think 3 shrite 1 mage 0 emilia is correct due to reasons included in my previous posts. 

 

i think you choose between mage or emilia not run both

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.Sammy    41

Both have pro's and con's though which makes me think testing with each, both together and separately would be something to try again.

 

On an unrelated note, I haven't read through this entire thread but are we considering the usage of Mirror of the Ice Barrier? In a way its seems good but not good, like its the sort of card you use at the first event so that people aren't prepared to play around it but its a total blowout in the mirror when they finally manage to drop a Trish on you. After the first tournament when people start talking about it, it becomes easier to telegraph a set 1 as a Mirror, but until then people won't be expecting it? Sorry this isn't properly structured I'm just trying to get my idea down before its gone and want peoples thoughts on it.

 

As double Rhapsody becomes a thing when people begin to use it, Mirror helps out here turn all their Rhapsody hits into your own Rhapsody with twice the impact.

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!Shining Bind!    220

Both have pro's and con's though which makes me think testing with each, both together and separately would be something to try again.

 

On an unrelated note, I haven't read through this entire thread but are we considering the usage of Mirror of the Ice Barrier? In a way its seems good but not good, like its the sort of card you use at the first event so that people aren't prepared to play around it but its a total blowout in the mirror when they finally manage to drop a Trish on you. After the first tournament when people start talking about it, it becomes easier to telegraph a set 1 as a Mirror, but until then people won't be expecting it? Sorry this isn't properly structured I'm just trying to get my idea down before its gone and want peoples thoughts on it.

 

As double Rhapsody becomes a thing when people begin to use it, Mirror helps out here turn all their Rhapsody hits into your own Rhapsody with twice the impact.

 

Definitely no mirror. If you play properly you should be able to avoid getting Trish'd

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.Sammy    41

Mirror punishes the other guy for dropping Trish. It punishes them for assuming bad play. They'll only make the mistake once but making it once is a free game to you. I want to test it regardless of 'correct play' because if you don't have to fear Trish then you shouldn't. Ofc we always have to fair it and leaving a board for Trish while we have Mirror allows us to gain mass advantage over the other player because they got greedy. 

 

I can see Nekroz mirrors being a lot like Shaddolls mirrors in the sense that Fusion > Plus > Tribute Set Beast is the same as Valk + Emeral/Lavalval. Whoever runs out first has to play aggressively if the game isn't over before the first player runs out of access to Valk, which can happen for any number of reasons and post board being prepared for situations like that when the other guy isn't is what will give us the win and allow us to consistently come out on top.

 

IMO we can't assume that mirror matches will always go according to the gameplan. A lot of the playerbase being bad and not knowing correct play in certain situations adds unpredictability to the game and thats something we can't control. But we can at least be prepared for it happening. 

 

Say the other guy is using 3 Trish and isn't the best player in the world. Early after release this will happen more often than once the format progresses. They leave a board for you, you're gonna drop your Trish. The do something stupid like drop Lancea when you were relying on GY Mirrors to clear your board, then you are open for them to Trish you again. In this situation the bad player is more likely to carry the 3 MST + Denko mindset from previous formats making mirror redundant, which is why I think it should be used for punishing good players for 'correct/optimal play' and punishing bad players, simply put, for being bad. People will disagree with me but eventually I convince you or you convince me which is a win win for everyone.

 

Shit happens in YGO and it helps to be prepared, especially going into a non-established format.

 

 

On a Artifact Lancea note; is it going to be a problem card? Mid-late game getting a Lancea dropped when you try to Exomirror is akin to getting ECon/BoM/Laked when you try Fuse from deck.

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harig07    2058

I've found Dance Princess to be underwhelming. It just baits out a card that would have been used on something else. Sure, that can be useful, but expending your Normal Summon on a bait to Breakthrough/PwwB/Karma/Drain is not particularly worthwhile. If they let it stay face-up then sure, that's great, but when it is most useful (when you're staring down a bunch of backrow [which you assume most of which at least is relevant]) your opponent will almost certainly throw a card into Dance Princess and expending your NS to take a set is not amazing. Best case scenario they Lake it, but even then you traded your Normal Summon for a Lake bait which lots of thing in your deck do better. If they use Emptiness pre-emptively unless you main deck MST or draw your one Raigeki (post sideboard discussions aren't relevant because Denko is just infinitely better) you're stuck - even if you have Dark Hole you're throwing a card into it.

 

Its on Tribute effect is kinda good late game, but I wouldn't dedicate a space to the main just for that.

 

I just never saw scenarios where I'd actually want to search it except for very few niche ones. A lot of the reasons why I said Archmage + DA are necessary to run can be replaced by DP + DA, but there are lots of other benefits to Archmage that I can't see extending to Dance Princess. Nothing wrong with running it but I don't having tried it for a while.

 

In regards to Mirror, I think it's bad to just Trishula into an obvious Trishula-able field for the reason that if the opponent is actually that bad you should win anyway, but it's more likely that they'll have a reason for making you assume that Trishula is okay. I rarely use Trishula in the mirror, only in last resorts or "perfect Trishula" situations. It's high risk high reward, like Heavy Slump was in Ruler format against Prophecy (they aren't comparable other than that in one particular scenario it's complete blowout and in every other scenario is a -1). Trishulaing for lols is rarely better than going for a hit and run with Valk because they can counter Trish you, so it's only in simplified gamestates where you'll really see value off Trish. Of course, this can't be universalised, but I tend not to throw Trishula into a lone backrow because either that backrow is something relevant (Mind Crush or TT) or it's some Trishula bait (people have set MSTs to throw into my Ritual Spells to try and lure me into Trishula lol). Sure, Trishula itself can be very rewarding at times. But better than Uni Valk swing for 5k draw 2 with the potential for Stratos + Rhapsody? Rarely.

 

People could very reasonably side out Trishula in the mirror and it wouldn't get punished. I just don't think siding in a blowout that punishes bad play is very logical, however it could be potent early on if people don't understand the deck as well and would be prone to play into it. So whether it is wise is very dependant on the event you're going to. Then again, that's always the crux with deck building in this game.

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petqwe    286

 

People could very reasonably side out Trishula in the mirror and it wouldn't get punished. I just don't think siding in a blowout that punishes bad play is very logical, however it could be potent early on if people don't understand the deck as well and would be prone to play into it. So whether it is wise is very dependant on the event you're going to. Then again, that's always the crux with deck building in this game.

I don't side Trishula out. I side them in.

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.Sammy    41

So I live in NZ and Regionals over here is just like a local lol. The north island has all the competitive players so this Regional for me is like a free invite. I've got 5 weeks and no premiere events with the same set legality as the regional before then, which means there will be no standardized build or ratios and everyone will either be using Dictator40 or AznEyes or Pojo or OCG netdecks. Which is fine but w/e. But I think at an event like this not playing Ice Mirror is just outright dumb. What you guys think? 

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!Shining Bind!    220

So I live in NZ and Regionals over here is just like a local lol. The north island has all the competitive players so this Regional for me is like a free invite. I've got 5 weeks and no premiere events with the same set legality as the regional before then, which means there will be no standardized build or ratios and everyone will either be using Dictator40 or AznEyes or Pojo or OCG netdecks. Which is fine but w/e. But I think at an event like this not playing Ice Mirror is just outright dumb. What you guys think? 

 

I certainly hope nobody net decks Azneyes or we're in for a shitty start. 

 

As a rule I've never been a fan of playing cards like Mirror that depend on your opponent being bad. It obviously has the potential to be a blowout card early on and i guess it's worth consideration but I feel like that side spot could be used for the more reliable options that have already been discussed in the thread

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.Sammy    41

So I have another issue here now and its about TCG Ratios. The standard atm seems to be:

 

3 Valk

3 Brio

3 Uni

1-2 Claus

1 Trish

1 Gungnir

1 DA

 

Has any thought been put into running 2 Trish in TCG and/or 2 Gung? Reasoning being TCG players love their Djinn locks and these cards stop the lock being broken. 2nd Trish probably comes up vs BA (Discard Traps + Lake) and 2nd Gungnir, realistically could come up any time you use the first. 

 

Would I be correct in saying if you can set-up Djinn-hanced Gungnir instead of something like Claus or Unicore you should? But this leaves the Djinnhanced Gung weak to Dark Hole and Raigeki. 

 

I think because there is no way to be sure whether Djinn will be used, mained, sided, how it will be used upon Nekroz TCG release by the majority of the playerbase, nor do we know how many people will main outs other than Dark Hole/Raigeki/Book of Moon/Tsukuyomi/Snatch Steal etc. Simple fact is all of these outs can be stopped by either Trish or Gung. Also BoE is the only semi-likely side card I can see being relevant that we can't protect our monster from by using our own engine. 

 

I guess the Djinnhanced Trish comes up enough also, but then you don't have a Trish in hand to out the BoM/Tsuk/Snatch.

 

Thoughts?

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Nate1080    1232
I'm not really versed in this deck yet, just learning the cards and how this deck works so take my advice with less than a grain of salt, but Burial from the Different Dimension seems legit here.

Returns banished Nekroz to be added to hand via Uni, returns banished Shrite to be used for another ritual summon, returns banished Nekroz to search out more Ritual Spells.


Apologize if its been mentioned before.

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So I have another issue here now and its about TCG Ratios. The standard atm seems to be:

 

3 Valk

3 Brio

3 Uni

1-2 Claus

1 Trish

1 Gungnir

1 DA

 

Has any thought been put into running 2 Trish in TCG and/or 2 Gung? Reasoning being TCG players love their Djinn locks and these cards stop the lock being broken. 2nd Trish probably comes up vs BA (Discard Traps + Lake) and 2nd Gungnir, realistically could come up any time you use the first. 

 

Would I be correct in saying if you can set-up Djinn-hanced Gungnir instead of something like Claus or Unicore you should? But this leaves the Djinnhanced Gung weak to Dark Hole and Raigeki. 

 

I think because there is no way to be sure whether Djinn will be used, mained, sided, how it will be used upon Nekroz TCG release by the majority of the playerbase, nor do we know how many people will main outs other than Dark Hole/Raigeki/Book of Moon/Tsukuyomi/Snatch Steal etc. Simple fact is all of these outs can be stopped by either Trish or Gung. Also BoE is the only semi-likely side card I can see being relevant that we can't protect our monster from by using our own engine. 

 

I guess the Djinnhanced Trish comes up enough also, but then you don't have a Trish in hand to out the BoM/Tsuk/Snatch.

 

Thoughts?

 

It's a decent idea and one that I've thought about as well...

 

but I'm just not willing to devote more slots to our "power" ritual monsters in an attempt to protect a lock that's falling out of favor it would seem.

 

like, i get the concept. but i would think extra copies of gung/trish just further promote clog because they're not actual "engine" cards.

 

---

 

also, i'm not sure upping trish/gung in an attempt to counter certain BA traps is the correct answer either.

 

i think we're going to see a BA deck that runs a lot less traps than previous builds in a post-secret forces. probably just lake + vanity main-deck.

 

this deck already has the inherent ability of making BA play Lake "awkwardly" against us. We can make plays that essentially force them to Lake us when we want them to Lake us.

 

NS Ju + SS Unic in a play that reads "I'm making Dweller" is going to force a knee-jerk reaction of flipping Lake on your field. Which is really fine because you got a search off of Ju + Herald + kaleido from grave. Or just dropping a single brionac on board against a field of double dante + set Lake.

 

we're hardly ever committing enough resources to the board to really be "hurt" by lake. it's the most easily read set in the game right now. so just don't make plays that commit 3 cards to the board. or 2 cards. completely doable in this deck.

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.Sammy    41

I'm not really versed in this deck yet, just learning the cards and how this deck works so take my advice with less than a grain of salt, but Burial from the Different Dimension seems legit here.

Returns banished Nekroz to be added to hand via Uni, returns banished Shrite to be used for another ritual summon, returns banished Nekroz to search out more Ritual Spells.


Apologize if its been mentioned before.

I guess Dancer/Emelia is better but people don't even like that so idk?

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Retort-ABYR-EN-ScR-1E.png

 

 

So this got pointed out today and it's really interesting to me for its applications in the mirror. It has applications in the early and the late game. In the early if you've gone first and managed to have this set and you're opponent is making a multiple ritual card play then you can stop them halfway through it or prevent them from even starting. A common example being Ju-Kaleido-Unicore-Lavaval Chain-dump shrit-summon Valk with Exo. So retorts application here would be to either leave them with Chain on field or to prevent them even being able to summon unicore. Then in the late game when both players have played multiple rituals  and are pushing and then clearing boards, retort can prevent the push, or force the opponent to "over-banish" from the grave to make sure you don't have matching ritual spells, giving you an edge. 
 

I feel due to the situational nature of the card you would consider siding it in when you've won game one in the mirror and so when it's likely that you'll be the one going first, and so you're free to set cards, and gives you some kind of safety net if you've left cards on the field. It has the issue of being a card that is at risk of being left of the field and is entirely dependent on the opponent and what cards they are playing and kinda can be played around by banishing a matching ritual and then re-adding the same one. However, retort does also work for preparation of rites, which is one of the best searchers the deck has access to and so being able to recycle it is kinda nice. Oh and it does also allow you to somewhat advance your game state too as you get the matching card back.

Has anyone tested this or see any other applications? 

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.Sammy    41

 

So I have another issue here now and its about TCG Ratios. The standard atm seems to be:

 

3 Valk

3 Brio

3 Uni

1-2 Claus

1 Trish

1 Gungnir

1 DA

 

Has any thought been put into running 2 Trish in TCG and/or 2 Gung? Reasoning being TCG players love their Djinn locks and these cards stop the lock being broken. 2nd Trish probably comes up vs BA (Discard Traps + Lake) and 2nd Gungnir, realistically could come up any time you use the first. 

 

Would I be correct in saying if you can set-up Djinn-hanced Gungnir instead of something like Claus or Unicore you should? But this leaves the Djinnhanced Gung weak to Dark Hole and Raigeki. 

 

I think because there is no way to be sure whether Djinn will be used, mained, sided, how it will be used upon Nekroz TCG release by the majority of the playerbase, nor do we know how many people will main outs other than Dark Hole/Raigeki/Book of Moon/Tsukuyomi/Snatch Steal etc. Simple fact is all of these outs can be stopped by either Trish or Gung. Also BoE is the only semi-likely side card I can see being relevant that we can't protect our monster from by using our own engine. 

 

I guess the Djinnhanced Trish comes up enough also, but then you don't have a Trish in hand to out the BoM/Tsuk/Snatch.

 

Thoughts?

 

It's a decent idea and one that I've thought about as well...

 

but I'm just not willing to devote more slots to our "power" ritual monsters in an attempt to protect a lock that's falling out of favor it would seem.

 

like, i get the concept. but i would think extra copies of gung/trish just further promote clog because they're not actual "engine" cards.

 

---

 

also, i'm not sure upping trish/gung in an attempt to counter certain BA traps is the correct answer either.

 

i think we're going to see a BA deck that runs a lot less traps than previous builds in a post-secret forces. probably just lake + vanity main-deck.

 

this deck already has the inherent ability of making BA play Lake "awkwardly" against us. We can make plays that essentially force them to Lake us when we want them to Lake us.

 

NS Ju + SS Unic in a play that reads "I'm making Dweller" is going to force a knee-jerk reaction of flipping Lake on your field. Which is really fine because you got a search off of Ju + Herald + kaleido from grave. Or just dropping a single brionac on board against a field of double dante + set Lake.

 

we're hardly ever committing enough resources to the board to really be "hurt" by lake. it's the most easily read set in the game right now. so just don't make plays that commit 3 cards to the board. or 2 cards. completely doable in this deck.

 

 

Yeah I think they will probably stick with 3 Emptiness 2-3 Lake (i'm picking 2) and maybe 2 PWWB. On top of Maxx "C" and Effect Veiler.

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.Sammy    41

Retort-ABYR-EN-ScR-1E.png

 

 

So this got pointed out today and it's really interesting to me for its applications in the mirror. It has applications in the early and the late game. In the early if you've gone first and managed to have this set and you're opponent is making a multiple ritual card play then you can stop them halfway through it or prevent them from even starting. A common example being Ju-Kaleido-Unicore-Lavaval Chain-dump shrit-summon Valk with Exo. So retorts application here would be to either leave them with Chain on field or to prevent them even being able to summon unicore. Then in the late game when both players have played multiple rituals  and are pushing and then clearing boards, retort can prevent the push, or force the opponent to "over-banish" from the grave to make sure you don't have matching ritual spells, giving you an edge. 
 

I feel due to the situational nature of the card you would consider siding it in when you've won game one in the mirror and so when it's likely that you'll be the one going first, and so you're free to set cards, and gives you some kind of safety net if you've left cards on the field. It has the issue of being a card that is at risk of being left of the field and is entirely dependent on the opponent and what cards they are playing and kinda can be played around by banishing a matching ritual and then re-adding the same one. However, retort does also work for preparation of rites, which is one of the best searchers the deck has access to and so being able to recycle it is kinda nice. Oh and it does also allow you to somewhat advance your game state too as you get the matching card back.

Has anyone tested this or see any other applications? 

 

Resolving a Retort can be an absolute blow-out at times but I doubt it will be. Because this deck can just banish > recur a ritual other than the one you took.

 

I want to talk briefly about the Synchros we actually have to play. Atm I have

 

1 Five-Headed

1 Quasar

1 Star Eater

1 Shooting Star

1 Barkion

2 Herald 

 

I've only found that I need 2 12's and 2 4's. The 6 comes up more than enough also its just the 10 and 11 feel redundant. I don't need Star Eater or Shooting Star ever so I might cut them down for more Rank 4's. This means we have more access to the Rank 4 toolbox and don't have to decide between stuff like double Rhapsody OR double Chain we can use both. Like Klevis said double Chain comes up a lot but double Rhapsody comes up a fair bit in the mirror. Idk it might just be me but what do you guys think?

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falolipe    72

Retort-ABYR-EN-ScR-1E.png

 

 

So this got pointed out today and it's really interesting to me for its applications in the mirror. It has applications in the early and the late game. In the early if you've gone first and managed to have this set and you're opponent is making a multiple ritual card play then you can stop them halfway through it or prevent them from even starting. A common example being Ju-Kaleido-Unicore-Lavaval Chain-dump shrit-summon Valk with Exo. So retorts application here would be to either leave them with Chain on field or to prevent them even being able to summon unicore. Then in the late game when both players have played multiple rituals  and are pushing and then clearing boards, retort can prevent the push, or force the opponent to "over-banish" from the grave to make sure you don't have matching ritual spells, giving you an edge. 
 

I feel due to the situational nature of the card you would consider siding it in when you've won game one in the mirror and so when it's likely that you'll be the one going first, and so you're free to set cards, and gives you some kind of safety net if you've left cards on the field. It has the issue of being a card that is at risk of being left of the field and is entirely dependent on the opponent and what cards they are playing and kinda can be played around by banishing a matching ritual and then re-adding the same one. However, retort does also work for preparation of rites, which is one of the best searchers the deck has access to and so being able to recycle it is kinda nice. Oh and it does also allow you to somewhat advance your game state too as you get the matching card back.

Has anyone tested this or see any other applications? 

You are asking to get trish'ed if they activate a different ritual spell. Like, you have kaleidomirror in grave and set retort, your opponent activate cycle or exomirror and summon trishula. Not so great.

Besides he can just banish and search another ritual spell and repeat, and the card you gain from your grave is not even relevant because you could've banished and search anyway (even though you need to burn resources in your deck, but at the same time its better search for the ritual spells than drawing them for turn so idk).

If you hit preparations its a whole different matter, but again you cannot risk to make his trish alive hoping your opponent draw preparation while you have one of your own in grave for the blowout.

@.Sammy: I don't ever need lvl 10 and 11 either. If I have brionac + unicore + kaleidomirror I rather go for herald search cycle, discard brionac to grab shrit and tribute it to summon brionac from grave, that way I don't "lose" brionac in my hand because I can search another with shrit or trishula/clausolas if you need for that turn. Taking synchros out to add more rank 4 doesn't seem bad to me, someone could say "what if you ever need the synchro?" but the point is, can you win more games with the second berserk or whatever rank 4 you choose than the games you would lose because you didn't have the synchro? I think the answer is yes.

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.Sammy    41

Yeah so I've cut the 10 and the 11. People argue that you need them for rogue decks to stick Brionac + Unicore but you don't. Rogue decks die to getting Trished turn after turn and lose even faster when you can stick a Djinn + Gungnir.

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The 11 serves as another means of making a Valk play as well.

 

Valk + Claus

 

Doesn't come up a lot... but sometimes it's the difference between not doing anything for a turn against the mirror or drawing 2 + searching off kaleido in-grave eff.

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.Sammy    41

You only break even you don't plus. I guess it sets up the grave but I'd rather just leave Valk in hand and not reveal I'm using Water.

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.Sammy    41

So I just wanted to go quickly over some of my card choices and explain my thought patterns etc.

 

cwD1rzF.png

 

So everything in the main deck is pretty standard for now, 40 cards and I'm not sure that I want to go over that for the time being. The only thing I kinda miss is the 3rd Shritt but I think doing it this way while not going over 40 cards is correct. I want to play 2-3 MST in the main because my first event with this deck is going to be a small regionals, not a lot of optimized decklists and a lot of rogue. Which is not ideal for us because we can't predict that I will have a high chance of versing the big 3 in early rounds. So because of this I want to main the msts/denkos or maybe even 2nd Trish to dodge eff negation. I'm not sure though. I think I need MST as an out to floodgates people main while play rogue at regional level. Sure after round 3-4 I'll be versing all meta which is then a lot easier to predict, so i am unsure if its worth saturating my deck with subpar cards to counter threats that I may or may not face. Need opinions on this.

 

 

CbLKXAL.png

 

 

Second off heres the extra deck I am currently testing. I have double Lavalval Chain and double Rhapsody because aside from Emeral, these are the best monsters you summon from your extra deck and they come up in doubles the most often. Cowboy has also been super super important vs the mirror in both practice and in theory. I want to add crazy box too but the entire extra deck comes up more often than Crazy box. I just want peoples ideas and theory on what cards are most important in the main and the extra.

 

Next relevant issue is OTK's in the mirror. Imo it is more important to push for game as soon as possible as opposed to stalling out with Valks. There are 2 cards that help do that and I think Lancea might be better than Kycoo because it doesn't require your normal summon. At the same Kycoo is better if you wanna play slower but it does require your normal summon. Both have positive applications and are both something we have alright talked about. But when it comes down to cards that help the matchup and cards that outright win the game Lancea wins.

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Tingy    463

yup lancea is very strong. playing lancea depends on your decklist. if you have alot of hand traps like veiler etc lancea is less valuable and kycoo is stronger and the inverse is true. 

 

if i were going into a regional level event i wouldnt play a deck teched out for the mirror, moreso you're in new zealand. probably just play the hands in main

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.Sammy    41

Hands in the main you reckon? What would a build like that look like?

 

Also I know there is a couple of good players in my area that will be using Nekroz so I'll just side 3 Lanceas for them.

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August    280

Next relevant issue is OTK's in the mirror. Imo it is more important to push for game as soon as possible as opposed to stalling out with Valks. There are 2 cards that help do that and I think Lancea might be better than Kycoo because it doesn't require your normal summon. At the same Kycoo is better if you wanna play slower but it does require your normal summon. Both have positive applications and are both something we have alright talked about. But when it comes down to cards that help the matchup and cards that outright win the game Lancea wins.

 

You know lancea only can be used on your opponent's turn, right?

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I would side Mirror in the early stages to grab free wins off bad players. Then slowly phase it out as people actually learn how the mirror match works. Sammy what's your reasoning on not playing snatch steal? 

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