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GerardoSDR    175

 

So I was thinking would it be any merit in runing things like Torrential Tribute or Compulsory? they arent bad in the mirror and also serve as defense against other decks

For decks like Heroes, Torrential Tribute and Mirror Force and Compulsory are very useful. These spot removal are great against decks that run a minimal amount of monsters.

 

Imagine the scenario that you Torrential or Compuls a Dark Law. They often could not afford to lose any monsters this way when they already do not have sufficient monsters to summon onto the field. These cards make their life very difficult (their hand will brick automatically).

 

And then imagine the scenario that you Torrential a Valk or even a full field of monsters. They almost have an endless supply of monsters. You kill 3 and there are still 7 coming. This case if I need defence I will just play floodgates so that they can have 10 monsters without being able to summon any single one.

 

But since it is very likely the case that Nekroz will still be at large this format, I think I will stick to floodgate if I am to play defensive cards.

 

while it's true tht you can keep a constant stream of monsters in the mirror match, the fact that torrential or compulsory can disrupt a valk play can be huge as you esentially stop them from drawing 2 cards, and in the case of compulsory you leave them open to trish

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THERON SHAN    10
Isn't the problem with running traps in the mirror like Evac, Is that it opens you to getting Trish'd in the first place? Your taking a gamble, your hoping they Ju search trish? And then what evac the Ju for a neg one?

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GerardoSDR    175

Isn't the problem with running traps in the mirror like Evac, Is that it opens you to getting Trish'd in the first place? Your taking a gamble, your hoping they Ju search trish? And then what evac the Ju for a neg one?

not really since you can chain the torrential, ring of destruction or compulsory to trish and clearing your field to avoid it, sure bouncing a trish isnt very good but you get rid of one of his summons of that turn which leads to having a little tempo advantage, also if they spend resources to summon trish there's a high chance of them being unable to summon valk to get rid of their manju

 

edit: had a missconception on how cards are sent to the graveyard during a chain

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Matt Bishop    2372

This deck is the best deck because of incredible consistency and a magnificent engine.  Not because of the sole reason it can drop Trishula.  Obviously, Trishula is a great card and a very significant one at that, but you cannot simply say that the reason Nekroz is the best deck is because it can play Trish.  That is extremely short sighted.  

 

The fact that everyone clambered on jhadd for simply stating that you guys are overexaggerating how good Trishula is, is dumb.  Like obviously, Trishula is amazing, and insane versus decks that cannot play it when it resolves, but more and more people are building their decks to counter it or play around it.  I find Trishula is best used as a final dagger type of play when dismantling a board that your opponent has constructed.  

 

Secondly, Scolding is an interesting card, but the fact that it does make MST live is relevant.  Like all of your matches will not be against mirrors.  If you knew you were going to play 100% mirrors, then sure, it would be insane.  The problem with that is, that you don't know you will only play against mirrors and the card is especially subpar in game ones against anything that mains Typhoon.  Against decks that lock will be poor against, Scolding will probably be underwhelming in those matchups as well.  

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!Shining Bind!    220

This deck is the best deck because of incredible consistency and a magnificent engine.  Not because of the sole reason it can drop Trishula.  Obviously, Trishula is a great card and a very significant one at that, but you cannot simply say that the reason Nekroz is the best deck is because it can play Trish.  That is extremely short sighted.  
 
The fact that everyone clambered on jhadd for simply stating that you guys are overexaggerating how good Trishula is, is dumb.  Like obviously, Trishula is amazing, and insane versus decks that cannot play it when it resolves, but more and more people are building their decks to counter it or play around it.  I find Trishula is best used as a final dagger type of play when dismantling a board that your opponent has constructed.  
 
Secondly, Scolding is an interesting card, but the fact that it does make MST live is relevant.  Like all of your matches will not be against mirrors.  If you knew you were going to play 100% mirrors, then sure, it would be insane.  The problem with that is, that you don't know you will only play against mirrors and the card is especially subpar in game ones against anything that mains Typhoon.  Against decks that lock will be poor against, Scolding will probably be underwhelming in those matchups as well.  


"More and more people are constructing their decks against it."

Way to invalidate your own argument...pretty sure if people are building their decks to counter that specific card, it's a testament to just how absurdly powerful it is, putting aside the fact that the entire mirror is pretty much playing around Trish

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Actually, if Trishula didnt exist, this deck would not be the best deck.

 

Change "Trishula" to Unicore, Brionac, Kaleidoscope, whatever and you'll quickly see why these types of arguments are meaningless. Regardless of how this discussion resolves, our decks won't change as a result and neither will anything, so why even have this argument?

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Onion    12

What??? People are constantly playing AROUND Trish.  They have to.  Just because this deck runs 1 trish is the sole reason why this deck is what it is.  It punishes people for playing yugioh similar to how Dolls punished people for going into the extra.  If this deck did not have trish, it would just be Valk and unicore plays. Trish has a powerful affect on the game where you have to constantly avoid it, just like not setting all 5 cards into Heavy Storm.  Thats why people are playing veilers and other annoying shit to stop your win condition, aka trish.  It might not do everything, it doesnt have to, its just the simple fact that its there.

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What??? People are constantly playing AROUND Trish.  They have to.  Just because this deck runs 1 trish is the sole reason why this deck is what it is.  It punishes people for playing yugioh similar to how Dolls punished people for going into the extra.  If this deck did not have trish, it would just be Valk and unicore plays. Trish has a powerful affect on the game where you have to constantly avoid it, just like not setting all 5 cards into Heavy Storm.  Thats why people are playing veilers and other annoying shit to stop your win condition, aka trish.  It might not do everything, it doesnt have to, its just the simple fact that its there.

 

Still don't know why I try.

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Matt Bishop    2372

Actually, if Trishula didnt exist, this deck would not be the best deck.


did I ever say that it would be?

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Yeah saw it and remembered Jeff and others saying Trade-In sucked and not to waste our collective time. Perhaps he was wrong, not that one regional top or anecdotal evidence as a whole has anything to do with what is right or wrong to play, but instead of shutting up the discussion via authorative one-lining, maybe we should actually discuss everything the card does with actual theory and logic.

 

Maybe we ought to waste our time.

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Virtuoso    95

trading real cards for random draws sounds iffy, unless you are trying to make perfect djinns and digging for unsearchable cards like lance. still, at that point you are turning one of the more consistent decks to ever exist into a crapshoot. and the trade-in player wasnt even using that many unsearchable cards. he didnt even use 3 rota, while he had the 2 claus. Idk, im just of the opinion of that list isnt good. maybe its too next level and i dont see it, but i wouldnt run it. I love 3 rota and have no problem drawing all 3 even. the logic might be -2 rites +2 rota. which is wrong because rites is rites

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trading real cards for random draws sounds iffy, unless you are trying to make perfect djinns and digging for unsearchable cards like lance. still, at that point you are turning one of the more consistent decks to ever exist into a crapshoot. and the trade-in player wasnt even using that many unsearchable cards. he didnt even use 3 rota, while he had the 2 claus. Idk, im just of the opinion of that list isnt good. maybe its too next level and i dont see it, but i wouldnt run it. I love 3 rota and have no problem drawing 3 even. the logic might be -2 rites +2 rota. which is wrong because rites is rites

 

It also sets up the play Jhadd brought up earlier, without even having to send it with Lavalval Chain

 

Also, who says the the random cards aren't "real cards?"

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RedeemedOne    104

 

trading real cards for random draws sounds iffy, unless you are trying to make perfect djinns and digging for unsearchable cards like lance. still, at that point you are turning one of the more consistent decks to ever exist into a crapshoot. and the trade-in player wasnt even using that many unsearchable cards. he didnt even use 3 rota, while he had the 2 claus. Idk, im just of the opinion of that list isnt good. maybe its too next level and i dont see it, but i wouldnt run it. I love 3 rota and have no problem drawing 3 even. the logic might be -2 rites +2 rota. which is wrong because rites is rites

 

It also sets up the play Jhadd brought up earlier, without even having to send it with Lavalval Chain

 

Also, who says the the random cards aren't "real cards?"

 

What I am currently testing and I haven't missed the other two ROTA, yet.

 

Monsters: 25

 

Nekroz of Valkyrus x 3

Nekroz of Unicore x 3

Nekroz of Brionac x 2

Nekroz of Clausolas x 2

Nekroz of Gungnir x 1

Nekroz of Trishula x 1

Shurit, Strategist of the Nekroz x 3

Manju of the Ten Thousand Hands x 3

Senju of the Thousand Hands x 3

Effect Veiler x 3

Djinn Releaser of Rituals x 1

 

Spells: 12

 

Nekroz Kaleidoscope x 2

Nekroz Cycle x 2

Nekroz Mirror x 2

Book of Eclipse x 2

Book of Moon x 1

Preparation of Rites x 1

Raigeki x 1

Reinforcement of the Army x 1

 

Traps: 3

 

Solemn Scolding x 3

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TFJ    632
Can we stop saying making MST live is a bad reason to use a card. So we turned their 141 into a 141. Otherwise they might *gasp* at it as a blur our never use it.

The problem I have with scolding is, MST + Djinn out beats it. But did happens.

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The Ween    238
For what it's woery, I was playing against the trade in build with dolls maining mistake. I crushed him game 1, then got absolutely destroyed games 2 and 3. I think the real value in trade in is that you can side just 3 or 4 cards and still see at least one of them basically every game. i can see where the draw powers value would lie, especially when paradoxes like MST for counter siding comes up

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Squiddy    9278

theres like a million cards that does wat solemn scolding does but beter so i dont understand why u wouldnt just play emptiness or ring before scolding plus u need to pay 3k which means auto lose if u have a clear board and it may not look like it but this decks consistency got hurt a lot so playing traps in the first place just makes ur hands even worse. imagine going 1st and opening scolding thats already a blank meaning u have 4 carts even less of a chance to see unicore and valkyrus ur most optimal opening plus u will find urself using it to negate their trishula otherwise u 1 for 1 it with their brionac or search cart (why not just play ride in this case)

 

the only time scolding would ever be good is if u opened a good hand in the first place and able to set up djinn its so very awkward

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Suuwo    690

I didn't see upstart in that guy's deck, but I could be wrong as I quickly went through it. I don't think I'd run trade in before maxing out on upstart. I'd rather start with 37 cards before playing 40 with two trade ins in it. You'd have to resolve both trade ins to catch up and marginally thin out your deck more than upstart would have done so.

 

The turn one options it gives you are cool. I won't deny that being able to do something like emeral + cycled valk over chain + cycled valk is amazing turn one. In order to get that value play in you have to draw the following:

 

Trade in + a way to put emeral on the board + a way to get shurit + cycle + the valk you need to dump

Trade in + Ju + kaleido / unicore / claus + rota / shurit / brio + cycle / brio / claus + valk / brio but you can't use brio or claus twice so you would have to eliminate some possible combinations of cards. You have to open two unsearchables trade-in and a Ju. I know you can do some other cool plays with  trade-in cycling valk, but this is the best play I can think of that trade in gives you access to that blows out regular builds out of the water.

 

After turn one, most of the benefits of trade in disappear. You're going to be pressured to use your unicore to do stuff like fetch back brio / shurit / valk to stay in the game. You won't have that much room to use a unicore or brio to fuel your trade ins. Even if you're not under that much pressure, you just used one of your most important once per turn effects to do it so you actually limited rather than extended your options that turn by using trade in. There's also the issue of getting another valk to keep yourself in the game.

 

I think you would rather max out upstart and rota before even considering something like trade-in. Upstart straight up cuts your deck size and rota gives you a specific card without being combo reliant or using up one of your once per turn effects. I guess trade in gets you to your unsearchable stuff, but it's not even guaranteed.

 

edit: added some stuff

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falolipe    72

We didn't talk about trade in not because Jeff said it sucks, we didn't discuss it because most of us already knew trade in sucks. And a top with them doesn't change that. I have tried the build myself and every time I play someone using trade in I win because they turbo their cards and run out of resources faster. Like the only real benefit those builds have is try to apply pressure early on the game and try to kill fast either with a lock or by disruptive cards like veiler, maxx c, etc. If they don't put you in awkward positions in the first few turns you know you will win at the end by having more resources.

 

Scolding + djinn seem extreemly scary to face but I do agree with squiddy about scolding being mediocre when you don't have djinn. 3k is a lot in the mirror match because you are 1 gungnir away from losing the game and it doesn't do much against your opponent's djinn lock unike something like ring wich is good to disrupt plays and also out djinn, even though it doesn't protect your own lock from spells. Also you have to consider if you go first there are hands where you don't have valk (specially if one of those 5 is scolding) and you are forced to take damage, meaning scoldings are dead or they can kill you if you use it too early, and having a dead card on the field = getting trish'ed, so you are pretty much forced to negate the first ju they summon because you don't get value from negating spells, but if you pay 3k to negate ju they can kill you with unicore+valk or brio+trish or whatever.

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Matt Bishop    2372

theres like a million cards that does wat solemn scolding does but beter so i dont understand why u wouldnt just play emptiness or ring before scolding plus u need to pay 3k which means auto lose if u have a clear board and it may not look like it but this decks consistency got hurt a lot so playing traps in the first place just makes ur hands even worse. imagine going 1st and opening scolding thats already a blank meaning u have 4 carts even less of a chance to see unicore and valkyrus ur most optimal opening plus u will find urself using it to negate their trishula otherwise u 1 for 1 it with their brionac or search cart (why not just play ride in this case)
 
the only time scolding would ever be good is if u opened a good hand in the first place and able to set up djinn its so very awkward

thank you for having a brain squiddy.

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