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Drewsifer    49

Subbing just so I may as well learn what the deck that the majority of the players at my locals will be using now...

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dopespot    34

The deck doesn't need Teleport to work tbh.

 

The deck has some serious consistency issues and tele helps alleviate them by being a combo-starter. Anytime you don't open either Elder or Hawk (and to a lesser extent Penguin) you aren't doing anything significant. Tele comes in here by allowing you to make plays when you don't have your preferred openers because you can go spirit beast + tele into ulti-hawk and start to play the game. Yes it is weak late-game but you won't get to the late-game if you aren't opening strong. 

 

Soto's top 4 list feels like a good starting point considering how little discussion has been done on this deck. The only things that I have changed are -2 Fiendish chain -1 Ghost Ogre for +3 Upstart because the deck desperately needs to draw into its combo-starters and can still otk through upstarts. Ghost Ogre is generally awful and you never want to draw it or realistically tele for it.

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Blacklisted    1330

327px-BrainResearchLab-ANPR-EN-C-UE.png

 

 

How terrible is this card (with Terraforming) ? Makes all of them an Elder

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Gabe3Vino    77

It would be better if you could use both this and Elder in the same turn, but the additional normal summon won't stack.

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XEVO    1

As BearAlchemist mentioned before, 2 Terra / 1 Research Lab / 1 Oracle of Zefra both increases the consistency and early game potency, both of which this deck struggles with. 

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Kyou    32

My problem with that is the deck doesn't really have an issue with consistently getting to Tamers. You can have all of the methods to get to your Tamers that you want, but if you can't get to your Beasts, you're still screwed.

 

Honestly, if I were to run this deck, I'd be maxing out on Upstart Goblin and Reckless Greed. The quicker you can establish a combo by accessing your missing pieces, the quicker you can establish a game state where you're in a winning position.

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Sess    280

My problem with that is the deck doesn't really have an issue with consistently getting to Tamers. You can have all of the methods to get to your Tamers that you want, but if you can't get to your Beasts, you're still screwed.

 

Honestly, if I were to run this deck, I'd be maxing out on Upstart Goblin and Reckless Greed. The quicker you can establish a combo by accessing your missing pieces, the quicker you can establish a game state where you're in a winning position.

 

Upstart is good but I think there is a valid reason to not include it in the deck. This deck can pull out 3200 damage off of just ambush after you set-up. Ambush for guys during end phase then ulti-cannahawk to get search wen/lara, summon and re-make ulti-hawk to get bond and make double apelio for and bond into ulti-gaiapelio for 8200. Consistency is a big deal for this deck, but I'm just saying that the life total is a reason other than just player preference for not including it for this deck.

 

Also what are everyone's thoughts about just running a combination of 3 wen/lara/zeframpilica rather than the standard 4 tamer combination whether its 2 wen or 2 lara? 

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Ostaph    73
The main reason the deck does good is the combo that searches your traps (or if you have enough of those, sets up your next turn or if you bring him out, gives you fodder for Ulti-Gaia). So the Ulti-Cannahawk combo is the wincondition of the deck. And it is pretty much the only way the deck wins consistently.
The main goal should therefore be to make the combo as soon and as often as possible. Anything that achieves that should be considered.

Possible monster line-up:
3 Elder - This should be without debate.
1 of each other tamer - The other tamers and their ratios are a bit difficult. Generally you want to ss your beast rather from grave then from the banished pile. Therefore, Wen is should not be run in greater number than 2. I think that one is often enough. On the other hand, it can be a great top deck card. The other tamers do pretty much the same thing. You only run both for different names. I don't like that the Zefra goes to extra. It does not serve as resource there. So you might want to play 2 Lara instead. Lara is also OK in a situation where you did not open the combo but something like Penguin, which will end in grave and can be summoned next turn or whatever it had sent to grave with its eff. While the ratios make slight differences, I don't think playing 6, 7 or 8 Tamers makes or brakes the deck.

3 Hawk - Look Elder...
3 Penguin - Many play 3 and consider it almost as important as Hawk. It can open the door for combos in the next turns. I also gives combos more length = more searches. Also with Ulti-Gaia he's more versatile now. 3 looks best.
2 Lion - He can serve as an out to Winda and Tking. Solid beatstick and gives combos length without wasting more ultis from extra.
2 Dolphin - Dolphin is an out to every floodgate monster. He is seriously underestimated imho. Also the cost for his eff can be reused for combos. I really liked 2. Always.

The themed S/T:
3 Steeds - obviously
3 Ambush - Would not run less than 3. When you run out of Ambushes you lose. Can clogg turn one.
1 Bond - Has so much utility in dodging cards and finishing the game. Great card. But don't draw it too often, please.

Cards that make T1 combo more likely:
1 Foolish - send fodder for Lara
1 Gold Sarc - send fodder for Wen. Both, foolish and Sarc are terrible topdecks though. But should you be topdecking while being behind, you'll lose most of the time anyways and the goal should be to avoid that situation in the first place.
2 Teleport - While the card of course has good utility it is not the be all end all card some made it look like in the beginning. It can clogg and be totally useless. But it can also help to get stuff going. The "only ss once" clause makes it much worse though, which is why I don't like 3.
3 Upstart

There is a couple of other questions:
For example: What other traps to include? Which floodgates to play? Include Synchro option with Yuki?
I think other traps should be minimized to some carefully selected options. The deck has no inherent effect negation. So BTS or Fiendish should be considered, also Veiler. Regarding Floodgates: Macro and Fissure are good but only Macro is really superb. Fissure is often of limited use due to XYZ and Spells. Best thing about it is that it makes Maxx "C" impossible. I have never tried other floodgated in here tbh. The Synchro option with Yuki provides access to CWSD, Yazi, Black Rose (moon) and even Horus as most vialble options. Never tried it but always found it tempting. But I am also emotionally biased towards synchros as my favorite monsters... Might not be worth it, although Yazi is pretty solid vs. BA and CWSD is a nice protection.

That's it for my wall of text with thoughts on the deck. ;-P Feel free to disagree. I had decent success with the deck, got bored with it and am a little suprised that it had a good showing at NAWCQ.

EDIT: WHY is this not in paragraphs? I'm not that stupid.
EDIT²: Apparently I am. Now it is in paragraphs. Mysterious.

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Me.    57

One idea I saw floating around somewhere but I don'y think ever was seriously tested is pot of duality, with the reasoning being that if you draw it without a combo it's an invaluable consistency booster while if you draw it with a combo you're generally going to be fine either way because you combo off so strong that you can handle a dead card.

 

There is also the combo monk summon hawk, use hawk eff, overlay lavalval chain and stack a lara to get going the next turn. I don't think this is the format for it with hand traps currently seeing a lot of play, but is something to keep in mind for the future.

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One idea I saw floating around somewhere but I don'y think ever was seriously tested is pot of duality, with the reasoning being that if you draw it without a combo it's an invaluable consistency booster while if you draw it with a combo you're generally going to be fine either way because you combo off so strong that you can handle a dead card.

 

There is also the combo monk summon hawk, use hawk eff, overlay lavalval chain and stack a lara to get going the next turn. I don't think this is the format for it with hand traps currently seeing a lot of play, but is something to keep in mind for the future.

 

I feel like both of these ideas have been discussed to some extent in the thread before.

1. The deck's first turn play is everything , there is no real time to set up anymore especially going first. The longer it takes you to set up , the more behind you are and more vulnerable you are. This decks builds advantage with the ability to build fusions . As much as i want to play pot of duality the best possible option is to summon canna sent a tamer (preferably lara cus 2000 ass ) set ambush and pass. The problem with this is that if your opponent is smart they will be reading ambush and do bad things to your canna so your ambush isint live, and ambush isint live untii after the battle phase. So their space typhoons are more powerful.

2. I have tested summoner monk ,when hand traps where not as strong ,and while it is cute. Discard a spell,  summon canna send lara . Summon chain stack cool stuff set preferably ambush and pass. Your next play is telegraphed. Your opponent knows what to look out for ,and they know what you are drawing. But your ambush is stronger because its live once your opponent draws a card. Also steeds is turned off assuming you opened steeds+ambush. Also spells are really important with this decks early game, i cant see myself discarding a spell to get to where i would be already +a fusion to mess with your opponent

 

The problem with these us even with giving the deck the benefit of the doubt that you opened the cards in question and ambush. Assuming you didn't open ambush both of these play are relatively weak for their own reasons,and the slight consistency boost doesn't beat the fact that a passive first turn will have you playing catch up the rest of the game

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Me.    57

So pretty much concede every game you don't open elder or e-tele, rather than trying to make the best out of a consistently occurring bad situation?

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I'm pretty sure i didn't say that.  Its ideal if you do open a fusion because a fusion gets you somewhere, A fusion accelerates your game state guaranteed. While duality is not guaranteed to get you to a combo piece to accelerate your game state next turn, the odds are increased that it does but the "no special summoning clause" is not worth the possible combo piece you might get. If it was guaranteed it would be a different story.

 

Chain on the other hand, would require me to play summoner monk. This is a decent idea, either telegraphs my next play or requires my to open ambush for my follow up play to have any steam (I don't like that my opponent knows where my next play is coming  from ). Also i cant see myself using a summoner monk outside of the first turn, because there is a lot to invest into it for it to grant you anything in return. And i find that crippling with a card that is at two

 

What i am trying to say is all of the ways of  opening a first turn fusion, which is optimal, i do not see a reason why i would play these cards. 

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Me.    57

The "no special summoning clause" of duality doesn't mean anything if you don't have a combo. If there was another combo starter to play over it sure, then I'd agree. But to my knowledge, there isn't one. And then you can't argue that not comboing off that turn hurts you, because you wouldn't have combo'd off that turn no matter what card you were running instead. And duality-ing into a non-combo starter here is pretty much equal to running another non-combo starter instead of the duality, so I don't see your point here. If anything, you should be arguing about how bad duality is to draw when you can combo off.

 

You not liking your opponent knowing where your next play is coming from is not by itself a good enough reason to refute something. Why do you not like it?

 

As for them being dead outside of turn 1, getting the deck started is the real problem and a late game dead draw is very manageable when the deck gets to do its thing because it goes enough plus in its combos. The struggle is getting there, and getting there is what you should build for because the deck creates the strong late game itself without needing the topdecks.

 

I'm not saying that either of these options are good, I'm just pointing out their existence as cards with potential to partially solve some of the decks problems. And explaining why they might solve these problems. I'm not trying to defend there cards as something worth running (which I think I'm coming off as), but rather pointing out why your reasonings for refuting them are bad.

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XEVO    1

So the "No Special Summon clause" would be worth it if the combo piece was assured? What about Thunder Sea Horse, then?

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THERON SHAN    10
Emergency teleport can be played at 3 minimum 2.

- With Canna nets 2 searches. And you have 4 names available.

- With Pengu nets 1 search. 3 names available.

- When you open canna+elder, you can set and on opponents ep, get 5th name out, setting up even further for your next turn.

The cons of e-tele are offset in any of those senarios by giving you access to more names. More names, more plays.

Canna + e-tele: canna banish a tamer, e-tele for another. Fuse, combo.
Canna banish apelio. Fuse, combo (dumping apelio and beast or tamer)
That's 2 searches. Assuming you can protect ulti-canna on your opponents ep ambush for apelio and a tamer in grave. With apelio banish the other name, defuse your ulti-canna. 4 names on board. This is by far the best alternative outside canna+elder that involves e-tele.

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Doom Engine    6

Here are two of the turn one Elder combos for those that learn by reading like myself.

1. Elder + Cannahawk
 

Elder normal summon Cannahawk, Cannahawk effect banishing Apelio.
Contact into any fusion, contact out into Elder/Cannahawk.
Activate Cannahawk banishing a Wen.
Contact into Ulti-Cannahawk, activate it's effect to search sending Elder/Apelio.
Chain Ulti-Cannahawk's effect summoning Wen and Apelio and sending Elder to grave. 
Search for Steeds/Ambush.
Activate Apelio to banish Elder.
Contact into Ulti-Cannahawk, activate it's effect to search and send Wen/Apelio.
Search for Steeds/Ambush. 

2. Elder + Cannahawk 2
Elder normal summon Cannahawk, Cannahawk effect banishing Rampengu. 
Contact into any fusion, contact out into Elder/Cannahawk.
Activate Cannahawk banishing a tamer. Contact into Ulti-Cannahawk, activate it's effect to search sending a Lara/Cannahawk.
Chain Ulti-Cannahawk's effect summoning Lara/Rampengu. 
Search for Steeds/Ambush. 
Activate Rampengu banishing Ulti-Apelio and send Apelio.
Contact into Ulti-Cannahawk, activate it's effect to search sending a tamer/Ulti-Apelio.
Search for Steeds/Ambush. 

 

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SpiceWeasel    19

Seahorse doesn't search anything in the deck. It can't get cannahawk, because canna is wind not light.

 

So the "No Special Summon clause" would be worth it if the combo piece was assured? What about Thunder Sea Horse, then?

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The pendulum could be used for resource at times where you could banish the Ritual Beast Zefra from the Extra Deck to send a psychic to the grave instead of banishing one of your Gaia's.

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GerardoSDR    173

so after testing for a while I found that brain research lab is a must in this deck, it unbricks hands and lets you make bigger combos for example summoning a rapengu followed by a lara is even better than elder + canahawk, the fact that you can even normal summon 2 lara/zeframpilica/wen in the same turn is actually pretty unfair as it opens up a lot of otks and easier access to ulti-gaiapelio, however even when using 3 brain research lab, 2 terraforming and 2 e-tele the deck still has some serious consistency issues, I tried to lower the consistency problems by runing only the core traps to fit more combo cards, but even then its not enough, the build im testing right now has 65.6% chance of opening the combo compared to the 29.3% chance of the mistake build and the 49.6% of the e-tele build so I think I might be in the right direction, but its still not quite there. I cant stress enough on how important is being able to combo in the first turn as even waiting 1 more turn can be too late.

on another note raigeki, dark holes and the 2nd dolphin are kinda necesary because this deck really struggles pushing through anything bigger than 2600, also ...ehemm...          a certain fat ritual tribute fodder can be a problem[spoiler]enV1ZIE.png[/spoiler]

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Me.    57

You should run Foolish Burial if you have 5 monsters to pair it with 1st turn.

 

With some good will, you can make that 7 with lion.

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GerardoSDR    173

You should run Foolish Burial if you have 5 monsters to pair it with 1st turn.

I was using foolish burial but the card is only good with lara and pilica, so I decided to take it out and put in a second terraforming as its better overall, might take the vanity out and put it back

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knives1990    262
I think that I would play gold sarc before foolish, and I'm not even sure if I want to be running that.

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dopespot    34

I think that I would play gold sarc before foolish, and I'm not even sure if I want to be running that.

 

You wouldn't if your deck was running 5 gy summoners vs 2 banished summoners.

 

Both of them feel situational though.

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