ACP

PSA Regarding Agreeing to Side Various Cards

55 posts in this topic

For some strange reason, the following scenario has become somewhat of a hot button issue on DuelistGroundz:

 

After finishing game 1, players A and B make an agreement to mutually side out a particular card for game 2, perhaps Snatch Steal. If during game 2, player A activates Snatch Steal, what penalty, if any, should be assigned? If during or after the match, player B reveals that he was never even playing Snatch Steal in the first place, what penalty, if any, should be assigned? Does even making this kind of agreement in the first place violate policy?

 

My personal opinion (from reading Konami penalty guidelines): Telling your opponent to take a card out of their deck is not against Konami policy. It's a request that may be followed or ignored. Lying about the contents of your deck is also not against Konami policy. It's not public information, and thus it is not your responsibility to report accurately.

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/248499755248/permalink/10155328443560249/

 

Not only is the judge community overwhelmingly in agreement that no, this doesn't break any rules, but Julia herself, while not recommending that people lie to their opponents, and stated, "Never believe anything your opponent says about something that isn't Public Knowledge. Just do not do it. ... I don't RESPECT this kind of play. But it isn't against tournament policy."

 

For various other hypothetical lying scenarios, I recommend using this guide:

Who are you talking to?

Your opponent: You can lie about anything that is not public information. Reminder: Any card's text is public information.

A judge or tournament official: Lying to them about anything is considered cheating. Poeple have been banned for this before.

A random person who is neither a tournament official or your opponent: You can lie about anything. If you tell some dude that you're trading with that you're the president, no penalties will be applied to you.

 

Note that there is a loophole of sorts: If you can get your opponent to state directly to a judge that he sided a card out, the would be lying to a tournament official if he didn't. Note however that the role of judges is not to enforce arbitrary agreements between players. Remember that judges don't even like to be called over to verify that your Infernity opponent didn't set monsters in his s/t zone, so they are not going to enjoy being called over to half of your matches to enforce some silly agreement.

 

There is an even better way to enforce your agreements without wasting the time of judges. Just have both you and your opponent reveal the card that you are agreeing to side out. If they're not willing to do that, I'd say it's a pretty good indication that they're trying to trick you.

 

As far as I'm concerned this is an open and shut case. Bluffing (to mislead an opponent about the true nature of hidden information) is 100% allowed in yugioh, and in most other card games for that matter.

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there's no dilemma. It's not against the rules, it just makes him a scumbag.
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fuck yea
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it's stupid. 
You're siding out a game-winning card to make the match more about skill, when more often than not the person who drew better is going to win 85% of the time. 

 

Anywho this thread is about policy, and yeah if both players agree to side out something it shouldn't be a problem. It's your own damn fault if you trust your opponent and he ends up fucking you

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there's no dilemma. It's not against the rules, it just makes him a scumbag.

I agree that it's pretty cut and dry, but there were many notable members on DuelistGroundz who were under the impression that violating such agreements constituted UC-Cheating.

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there's no dilemma. It's not against the rules, it just makes him a scumbag.

 

I agree that it's pretty cut and dry, but there were many notable members on DuelistGroundz who were under the impression that violating such agreements constituted UC-Cheating.

 

what kind of idiot would think that? 

 

did klevis really have that much of an influence in the ygo grounds?

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There is an even better way to enforce your agreements without wasting the time of judges. Just have both you and your opponent reveal the card that you are agreeing to side out. If they're not willing to do that, I'd say it's a pretty good indication that they're trying to trick you.


The problem was that they had sided a Djinn, so even revealing the one they took out of their main deck wouldn't have solved the issue.
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There is an even better way to enforce your agreements without wasting the time of judges. Just have both you and your opponent reveal the card that you are agreeing to side out. If they're not willing to do that, I'd say it's a pretty good indication that they're trying to trick you.

 

 

Wait, people weren't doing this in the first place?

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There is an even better way to enforce your agreements without wasting the time of judges. Just have both you and your opponent reveal the card that you are agreeing to side out. If they're not willing to do that, I'd say it's a pretty good indication that they're trying to trick you.

 

 

Wait, people weren't doing this in the first place?

 

I thought what would occur is that both players put their (supposedly) single Djinn on the table, but one of the players sides in another copy unbeknownst to the other player. 

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now to be safe instead of :"do you want to side out djinn?" you're forced to say:"do you want to play g2 and g3 with no djinns in our decks?"

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Hey Allen, does shit like this ever happen in MTG?

 

"hey man, how about we side out Jace and Stoneforge?"

 

"sure"

 

"*snicker* had extra copies in my side deck haha, get outplayed noob!"

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Hey Allen, does shit like this ever happen in MTG?

 

"hey man, how about we side out Jace and Stoneforge?"

 

"sure"

 

"*snicker* had extra copies in my side deck haha, get outplayed noob!"

Well no one would even offer those kinds of agreements because

1. We're already playing a well-designed game so there's no need

2. We understand the slippery slope that results from them

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This is largely irrelevant because ARG and Konami don't share the same rules. ARG's rules and tournament policy arent really posted anywhere.

 

According to http://www.yugioh-card.com/my/event/rules.php?lang=en- he did break that rule, but thats going on Konami's latest rules for the OCG

Tournament EtiquetteDuring the event, Duelists are liable for penalties if they exhibit inappropriate or malicious behavior. Common rules to follow include (but not limited to):

 

 

5.Always aim for a fair duel, and for its smooth progression.

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This is largely irrelevant because ARG and Konami don't share the same rules. ARG's rules and tournament policy arent really posted anywhere.

 

According to http://www.yugioh-card.com/my/event/rules.php?lang=en- he did break that rule, but thats going on Konami's latest rules for the OCG

Tournament EtiquetteDuring the event, Duelists are liable for penalties if they exhibit inappropriate or malicious behavior. Common rules to follow include (but not limited to):

 

 

5.Always aim for a fair duel, and for its smooth progression.

 

except Julia said this was not illegal.

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This is largely irrelevant because ARG and Konami don't share the same rules. ARG's rules and tournament policy arent really posted anywhere.

 

According to http://www.yugioh-card.com/my/event/rules.php?lang=en- he did break that rule, but thats going on Konami's latest rules for the OCG

Tournament EtiquetteDuring the event, Duelists are liable for penalties if they exhibit inappropriate or malicious behavior. Common rules to follow include (but not limited to):

 

 

5.Always aim for a fair duel, and for its smooth progression.

 

except Julia said this was not illegal.

 

Ok and , Julia doesnt make the rules and it wasnt a Konami event...

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This is largely irrelevant because ARG and Konami don't share the same rules. ARG's rules and tournament policy arent really posted anywhere.

 

According to http://www.yugioh-card.com/my/event/rules.php?lang=en- he did break that rule, but thats going on Konami's latest rules for the OCG

Tournament EtiquetteDuring the event, Duelists are liable for penalties if they exhibit inappropriate or malicious behavior. Common rules to follow include (but not limited to):

 

 

5.Always aim for a fair duel, and for its smooth progression.

 

except Julia said this was not illegal.

 

Ok and , Julia doesnt make the rules and it wasnt a Konami event...

 

No, she literally does make the rules. That's her fucking job. Every single TCG policy document was directly written by her. Do you just think that she gets paid to bitch on pojo and be the token Konami female?

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Although she did say it was not cheating she didn't really address if it was malicious behavior. Julia is a fairly moral person from what i can see and i couldn't really see her turning a blind eye to this if she just happened to be the floor judge who got called over.

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This is largely irrelevant because ARG and Konami don't share the same rules. ARG's rules and tournament policy arent really posted anywhere.

 

According to http://www.yugioh-card.com/my/event/rules.php?lang=en- he did break that rule, but thats going on Konami's latest rules for the OCG

Tournament EtiquetteDuring the event, Duelists are liable for penalties if they exhibit inappropriate or malicious behavior. Common rules to follow include (but not limited to):

 

 

5.Always aim for a fair duel, and for its smooth progression.

 

except Julia said this was not illegal.

 

Ok and , Julia doesnt make the rules and it wasnt a Konami event...

 

No, she literally does make the rules. That's her fucking job. Every single TCG policy document was directly written by her. Do you just think that she gets paid to bitch on pojo and be the token Konami female?

 

My mistake but this still doesnt change the fact that this is an ARG event not an Konami one. So how is she even relevant to the discussion at all ? Arg doesnt follow Konami's rules so its impossible to determine whether he cheated until we have a clear rules & policy from ARG themselves.

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ARG have said they unequivocably follow KDE's docs unless otherwise stated.
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now to be safe instead of :"do you want to side out djinn?" you're forced to say:"do you want to play g2 and g3 with no djinns in our decks?"

That still doesn't hold your opponent accountable for anything.

 

The point is that under KDE tournament policies there are no penalties for intentionally lying to your opponent about private information. 

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ARG have said they unequivocably follow KDE's docs unless otherwise stated.

Wait so follow their rules but not the banned players list ? what...

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ARG have said they unequivocably follow KDE's docs unless otherwise stated.

Wait so follow their rules but not the banned players list ? what...
Because it's impossible to follow the whole KDE banlist.
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