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fractal

Official 2015-2016 NFL Season Thread

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Joe.    4932

You're avoiding my request to quantify the cheating. There is no evidence about other forms of cheating - and that is a can of worms no one wants to open. Are we going to look at every team like we do NE? Let us not kid ourselves, the Pats are not the only team looking to get an advantage (SD with sticky towels).

 

I think we need to critically looking at the act actually accomplishes, because statistics show it did virtually nothing.

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fractal    2488
SD was actually found to have done nothing wrong.

I think the biggest issue here is that the organization looks beyond stupid in how they're defending themselves: first, "deflator" is code for "I'm fat and trying to lose weight", then, the " going to ESPN" stuff is about shoes, and now they've fired the two guys they're trying so hard to defend.

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Joe.    4932
I'm not denying any of that. I completely agree.

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Samuel Pedigo    2203

You're avoiding my request to quantify the cheating. There is no evidence about other forms of cheating - and that is a can of worms no one wants to open. Are we going to look at every team like we do NE? Let us not kid ourselves, the Pats are not the only team looking to get an advantage (SD with sticky towels).

 

I think we need to critically looking at the act actually accomplishes, because statistics show it did virtually nothing.

 

 

You attack into Linde, your opponent grabs Pike and discards Marksman, you only have one backrow so you attempt to activate your Breakthrough Skill on his Pike, even though you're aware you cannot do so in the damage step. Your opponent also knows this so the game proceeds exactly how it would have if you hadn't attempted to activate BTS. Your opponent nullified any possible advantage you might have gained. But does looking at the results from this sample lessen the severity of your actions? After all, the purpose of the action was to provide an illegal advantage, whether one was gained or not.

 

I maintain it was relatively "minor" but illegal intent is what it is and tread lightly on using results. Besides, don't you all have an extremely low fumbling rate?

 

I'll stop now though. I feel bad for you hahah. Doesn't seem like you really post on DGz anymore (same here) and when you do it's usually in these sports threads, and here you are having defend yourself from an assault because of your allegiance to your local team. Kudos for having the commitment to come on and do so.

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You're avoiding my request to quantify the cheating. There is no evidence about other forms of cheating - and that is a can of worms no one wants to open. Are we going to look at every team like we do NE? Let us not kid ourselves, the Pats are not the only team looking to get an advantage (SD with sticky towels).

 

I think we need to critically looking at the act actually accomplishes, because statistics show it did virtually nothing.

 

 

You attack into Linde, your opponent grabs Pike and discards Marksman, you only have one backrow so you attempt to activate your Breakthrough Skill on his Pike, even though you're aware you cannot do so in the damage step. Your opponent also knows this so the game proceeds exactly how it would have if you hadn't attempted to activate BTS. Your opponent nullified any possible advantage you might have gained. But does looking at the results from this sample lessen the severity of your actions? After all, the purpose of the action was to provide an illegal advantage, whether one was gained or not.

 

I maintain it was relatively "minor" but illegal intent is what it is and tread lightly on using results. Besides, don't you all have an extremely low fumbling rate?

 

I'll stop now though. I feel bad for you hahah. Doesn't seem like you really post on DGz anymore (same here) and when you do it's usually in these sports threads, and here you are having defend yourself from an assault because of your allegiance to your local team. Kudos for having the commitment to come on and do so.

 

TLDR: The action of cheating shows the intent and willingness to cheat and in the end thats all that matters regardless of outcome or method used. Qualification and Justification are irrelevant. 

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Joe.    4932
Well if that is the case, every team in the NFL is on an even playing field.

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Well if that is the case, every team in the NFL is on an even playing field.

This assumes that their balls werent in regulation levels which given only 1 team got caught clearly isnt the case.

Even then, everyone doing it is not justification for doing it

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Joe.    4932

No, what I am saying is that - if you want to equate all forms of cheating on the same level, from PED use to pumping in crowd noise, than all teams play on the same level. You cannot seriously think every team in the NFL does not "cheat."

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Medb    773

I think that the issue here is that the reasons/justifications for cheating, no matter what method of cheating, are almost always the same, and therefore irrelevant. The method of cheating is important, and punishments should be doled out based on the frequency, and the ways in which that helps the team.  The issue is that you can't even say all cheating is the same, because technically any missed calls on penalties are cheating.  I'm thinking the only reason the Patriots got such a severe punishment is because they got caught before, and Brady's unwillingness to cooperate, which just makes people think he or the organization is really trying to hide the fact they cheated.  I also think the time in which they got caught played a part in it, since it was shortly before the Super Bowl, which makes it feel even worse.

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Joe.    4932

They got penalized for the lack of cooperation - not the act. The act was not serious.

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slickz    4307
The act of doing something illegal, er exploiting grey areas, to gain an advantage can be classified as serious.

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Joe.    4932

Not in the eyes of the NFL. That is why they botched the whole situation from the start.

 

And again, if you want to classify all acts on that level - than all NFL teams play on the same level - so there is no need to complai.

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slickz    4307
You can't prove that last statement. The Falcons are the most recent example and they were punished.

How did they botch the situation?

I would say deflating footballs is almost on the same level as "putting a bounty on the opponents quarterbaxk"

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Not in the eyes of the NFL. That is why they botched the whole situation from the start.

 

And again, if you want to classify all acts on that level - than all NFL teams play on the same level - so there is no need to complai.

Joe your team literally cheated to get to the Superbowl. Do you understand how much that undermines the integrity of the game if that is let go? Like if you want to qualify cheating then that has to be factored in. You can say it was soft cheating, but the situation was literally one step away from being the most critical one possible. 

 

The only real argument you have to stand on is what the rulebook says the punishment should be and even then the franchise isn't exempt given its past nature. Brady would be the only one and he essentially gets off on a technicality because the nfl decided to keep an archaic rule that should have been amended long ago. 

 

Also in regards to your comments about other teams, Here are the facts: You got caught! They didn't! In the end, thats all that matters. You can't make this claim about everyone doing it when only your team gets caught since its just conjecture. Even then, it doesn't justify your team doing it. 

 

I really think this suspension should be upheld and honestly Belichick probably should have been suspended too under the Sean Peyton precedent. Even if he had 0 clue as to what is going on, he is both the GM and head coach of the team, it is his job to make sure basically every aspect of this franchise is in order and he should have known. 

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You can't prove that last statement. The Falcons are the most recent example and they were punished.

How did they botch the situation?

I would say deflating footballs is almost on the same level as "putting a bounty on the opponents quarterbaxk"

Now this isn't true. There is a huge difference by trying to gain a competitive advantage in a game compared to trying to take someone's livelihood away (as we saw with Kurt Warner and Favre). I hate everything that Pats franchise stands for and does, but even I wont go there. One is cheating, the other is literally trying to destroy a person's life and health. 

 

Imo the Pats did get what they deserve and got what I consider a very fair punishment all things considered. The NFL got this one exactly right imo. Would I have preferred harsher (especially considering its Belichick)? Yes and I still think the nfl should have gotten him and would have been in the right to do so. 

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Joe.    4932

You can't prove that last statement. The Falcons are the most recent example and they were punished.

How did they botch the situation?

I would say deflating footballs is almost on the same level as "putting a bounty on the opponents quarterbaxk"

 

How did they not botch the situation? The NFL received an email from the Colts regarding the situation. Not only did Walt Anderson not adequately record the pre-game psi numbers (the Wells Report just takes him at his word regarding the # and the gauge), he ended up losing sight of the balls! if this was such a big deal on the NFL's end, don't you think they would have tried to keep track of this before the game? But they didn't, because they viewed the claims as just another meangingless complaint from a NFL team. Now you have this have unconvincing report scattered with holes and inadequacies (and yes, I've read it fully once; plus several sections multiple times over). The NFL could have had the Patriots dead to rites on this one, but no, they had an institutional failure from Walt Anderson on down.

 

Oh, and yes - all teams cheat:

 

http://yourteamcheats.com/

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You can't prove that last statement. The Falcons are the most recent example and they were punished.

How did they botch the situation?

I would say deflating footballs is almost on the same level as "putting a bounty on the opponents quarterbaxk"

 

How did they not botch the situation? The NFL received an email from the Colts regarding the situation. Not only did Walt Anderson not adequately record the pre-game psi numbers (the Wells Report just takes him at his word regarding the # and the gauge), he ended up losing sight of the balls! if this was such a big deal on the NFL's end, don't you think they would have tried to keep track of this before the game? But they didn't, because they viewed the claims as just another meangingless complaint from a NFL team. Now you have this have unconvincing report scattered with holes and inadequacies (and yes, I've read it fully once; plus several sections multiple times over). The NFL could have had the Patriots dead to rites on this one, but no, they had an institutional failure from Walt Anderson on down.

 

Oh, and yes - all teams cheat:

 

http://yourteamcheats.com/

 

lmao 

 

Requesting Ban for the use of this evidence. Like this is hilarious. There is being a fan of your favorite team and then there is being hopelessly deluded. 

 

 

Edit: the neg was solely due to using that website as any kind of documentation of anything. Page freaking cites a wikipedia page as evidence. What a joke. Also a player taking PED's is not equivalent to a franchise collectively cheating. One is personal incentive done for personal reasons (ie bigger contract, to make the team etc....) while the other has a pretty clearly defined goal (to win a championship)

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Joe.    4932

I could go through the history of each team - I simply enjoyed the satire with that site. I will make this an on going project when I have time. But I will take many of those events and provide better documentation. I cannot believe you won't admit "all teams cheat." 

 

I just want us to be honest. The NFL (and others) want to give the Patriots the death penalty for speeding. Just don't distort what got them in trouble. The actual infraction wasn't serious - the lack of cooperation was the real issue. That is all I am asking us to do - be honest and critical of the reality; not the distortion.

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fractal    2488

There should be a line drawn between individual cheating (isolated cases of PED tests) and club sponsored. One bad individual does not mean a bad organization. The Patriots as an organization also were punished because those participated were also club officials, not just a player.

 

The actual infraction was also serious. How could it not be if the penalties were so steep? Altering the conditions of game outside of the players themselves (so outside of PEDs or anything of the like) is a serious infraction. That is why the rules exist. Brady's lack of compliance only made him look worse, and no one believes that he had nothing to do with it, not even Bill. "No one does anything to the football that the quarterback doesn't like"

 

Didn't Walt Anderson say that he "lost" the balls because he never had them to the first place, that a Patriots employee brought the balls out just prior to the start of the game, which is also a breach of protocol?

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Jazz    5327
Anybody read up on the AEI report? I'm really skeptical of the Wells law firm now. If you can't replicate their experimental analysis as it's written I don't see how it's proof of anything. The sole basis of the report is a wonderful interpretation of nit-picked text messages framed against the backdrop of the one time use of the word "deflator." The PSI analysis holds no water.

Regardless of whether the Pats are actually guilty, this has been a total witch hunt from the beginning by the media, and the public just lapped it up. The rush to judgment by color commentators was absurd. The leaked "facts" were laughable, particularly the bit about 11 of 12 being 2 PSI under. And people still refer to "spygate" as taping practices, which it unequivocally was NOT, when it was only taping signals from an improper location during live games, when there was an assigned location from where it was allowed.

At this point I don't know what to believe about the particulars of the Colts game, but I still believe in the notion of innocence until proven guilty.
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Joe.    4932

Exactly. Perfectly written.

 

This has been a witch hunt from day one. Why am I not hearing anything on ESPN about MLB teams HACKING for competitive advantage? Witch hunt. People hate the Patriots and will blow ANYTHING they can astronomically out of proportion.

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Joe.    4932

But the Patriots are the only team that ever gets pulled over and it is certainly not because they are the only ones speeding.

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But the Patriots are the only team that ever gets pulled over and it is certainly not because they are the only ones speeding.

This isn't even true. Saints got caught with Bounty Gate. Falcons got caught for pumping in fake crowd noise. Browns got caught for text gate. Dolphins got caught for Incognito (not cheating but still). Like seriously how deluded do you have to be to actually believe this?

 

Did it ever cross your mind that the reason the Pats get caught more than anyone else (debatable but I'll agree for the sake of argument) is because they cheat more thus giving the nfl more opportunities to catch them?

 

 

FTR: Im just negging it because its such an awful argument no matter how you look at it. Even if you are correct and the league has it out for them (a hilarious notion), it still doesn't justify what they did at all. 

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Joe.    4932
This isn't some elaborate cheating. It is literally going 70 in a 65. No other teams get pulled over for that. Those other scandals are infinitely worse (minus Incognito).

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