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13 hours ago, Gemstone Mine said:

thank god

Inb4 its something worse than a Speedster. Gonna be something too OP, in which case beating him wont make sense, or too underpowered to suspend disbelief

 

Or Barry will be nerfed to the point where the show will be avg villain v avg person 

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+Gemstone Mine    2602

I mean, the logical step is to round up another big dc villian to stand in for the speedsters, like legends rounded up savage for season 1. So I have hopes.

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+Gemstone Mine    2602

part of the problem is using a villian that hasn't been done before, most of the name brand villians are either already taken (ra's, luthors, deathstroke, brainiac, savage, thawne), or are too big and iconic to use (darkseid, joker, etc), so that's what has me worried is that I can't really think of another top tier villain to use, but I suppose there's one floating around somewhere.

 

part of me suspects it'll be an alien because they've swung that door wide open and they've been pushing supergirl crossovers pretty hard, but still.

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+Gemstone Mine    2602
 

 


season's actually getting obnoxiously dark. Like, arrow dark. Anyone else remember when this show was allowed to be fun?

 

Like, it's actually gotten so dark we're literally getting emo barry next episode.
 

 

 

 

potential spoiler for next season

 

 

 


so did anyone else notice that kadabra named dropped Devoe as an upcoming villian in the same sentence as thawne zoom and savitar? Highly likely he's next seasons big bad or at the very least plays a major role.
 

 

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27 minutes ago, Gemstone Mine said:
  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

potential spoiler for next season

 

  Hide contents

 


so did anyone else notice that kadabra named dropped Devoe as an upcoming villian in the same sentence as thawne zoom and savitar? Highly likely he's next seasons big bad or at the very least plays a major role.
 

 

 

cool a rapper supervillian.

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On 3/29/2017 at 3:53 PM, Gemstone Mine said:
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season's actually getting obnoxiously dark. Like, arrow dark. Anyone else remember when this show was allowed to be fun?

 

Like, it's actually gotten so dark we're literally getting emo barry next episode.
 

 

1

 

 

potential spoiler for next season

 

  Hide contents

 


so did anyone else notice that kadabra named dropped Devoe as an upcoming villian in the same sentence as thawne zoom and savitar? Highly likely he's next seasons big bad or at the very least plays a major role.
 

 

5

Yeah I caught that too and i'm hoping they go the route of pure psychological torture because idk how theyd make that work otherwise. 

 

Also dark is good

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+Gemstone Mine    2602

cw literally can't make psychological torture work. They've tried it this season with flash, and its iffy at best. Arrow's done it this season, and it's lead to a season long nose dive that they've just now pulled out of. I have no faith.

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+Gemstone Mine    2602

the only upside of the arrow shitshow is that they're apparently finally done with flashbacks (I hope), they've set up so that there are no more of them.

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Faint    5720

After s2 arrow wasnt worth watching

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+Gemstone Mine    2602
 

 


I'm still reasonably sure it's a future version of julian. I doubt it's barry because then why would he kill iris. Also, barry trapping himself in the speedforce seems wrong. Especially since kadabra mentions that barry beats savitar and fights people afterwords, meaning that it's unlikely that barry beats savitar, lives a long time, then becomes savitar.
 

It's also highly unlikely it's jay. Because of the way tv shows play out, savitar is going to be someone already introduced at some point this season, and only julian fits the description. Like how arrow introduced a character early and kept him around just so you would already know about who prometheus is once he was unveiled.

 

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On 3/30/2017 at 7:21 PM, Gemstone Mine said:

cw literally can't make psychological torture work. They've tried it this season with flash, and its iffy at best. Arrow's done it this season, and it's lead to a season long nose dive that they've just now pulled out of. I have no faith.

Except they have reasoably well in Season 1 of Flash and Season 2 of Arrow. Its just hard to pull off because it requires the writers to really really delve into establishing a relationship between the two characters that sucks you in and one season doesn't really allow for that (Flash relied on off screen lore, Arrow was essentially two season in one with Lian Yu) 

On 3/30/2017 at 7:24 PM, Gemstone Mine said:

the only upside of the arrow shitshow is that they're apparently finally done with flashbacks (I hope), they've set up so that there are no more of them.

I find the flashbacks tends to break up the story nicely, but yeah the quality has gotten progressively worse. 

18 hours ago, Jesus the Jew said:

Speculation, but

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could Barry by Savitar? Or the older Flash who took Kid Flash's place in the Timestream?

 

Doubtful 

18 hours ago, Gemstone Mine said:
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I'm still reasonably sure it's a future version of julian. I doubt it's barry because then why would he kill iris. Also, barry trapping himself in the speedforce seems wrong. Especially since kadabra mentions that barry beats savitar and fights people afterwords, meaning that it's unlikely that barry beats savitar, lives a long time, then becomes savitar.
 

It's also highly unlikely it's jay. Because of the way tv shows play out, savitar is going to be someone already introduced at some point this season, and only julian fits the description. Like how arrow introduced a character early and kept him around just so you would already know about who prometheus is once he was unveiled.

 

To really hammer this home, Julian's whole gripe with metas is that they never do anything good with their powers and lo and behold when he gets powers, he becomes the incarnation of evil

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Faint    5720

Yeah arrow season 2 was bloody brilliant and the perfect dc season. Dat perdect circle trailer god damn. Problem is that it did take 2 full seasons to set up slade 

 

What nakes the flash great is that they've left it open for more thawne whenever they want, and hes the best villain they have

 

Ive enjiyed the julian - savitar link so far

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+Gemstone Mine    2602

i mean, if you throw enough darts at the board i guess you hit the target once and a while. But I have been singularly unimpressed with cws ability to make psych torture work. I'm not even sure if I would count s1 of flash.

 

 

 


considering they've offed thawne twice now (once in flash, once in legends), I highly highly doubt he's coming back. Original thawne no longer exists, the only ones that do are time remnants, and they've already used that excuse twice now. I doubt we'll see it again for a long time
 

 

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+Gemstone Mine    2602



although random aside, I fuckin loved how thawne went out in legends. Although the 'army of me' thing was ridiculous, the rest of his performance in that episode was great, and his death was so satisfying.

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2 minutes ago, Gemstone Mine said:

i mean, if you throw enough darts at the board i guess you hit the target once and a while. But I have been singularly unimpressed with cws ability to make psych torture work. I'm not even sure if I would count s1 of flash.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

What made Reverse Flash great was the psych torture. 

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+Gemstone Mine    2602

and you'll notice that unlike apparently everyone else, I didn't like s1 of flash as much as apparently everyone else did.

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Faint    5720

im still hoping that e19 flash is actually thawne the whole time

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+Gemstone Mine    2602
 

 


So the more I think about it the more the season hurts my head. Did I mention I hate time travel?

 

If present savitar is from a future where barry trapped him, but that barry has the exact same story, meaning that a future barry fought savitar in the exact same way before him. are there infinite savitars to get trapped over and over or is it the same savitar falling for the same trick over and over ad infinitum?

 

Also, why did the speed force ban travelling to the past to change things, but is apparently fine with barry travelling forward? What's the difference between barry travelling backwards to change things and barry travelling forward, getting the knowledge that future barry would have brought, then travelling back, other that future barry not leaving his point in time?

 really liked the episode though, was dark but not pointlessly so (like say arrow)

 

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+Gemstone Mine    2602



 

also, since we know there's a cycle, how do they expect us to believe that the cycle is just arbitrarily broken? TV logic says that it's unlikely that it takes barry the full 5 years or w/e it took barry to beat savitar the first go round, and apparently a barry before him did the same thing, so they better have a damn good explanation for why savitar loses faster this time.

 

Also, I like how they preemptively took time remnants off the table.

 

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On 4/25/2017 at 9:08 PM, Gemstone Mine said:
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So the more I think about it the more the season hurts my head. Did I mention I hate time travel?

 

If present savitar is from a future where barry trapped him, but that barry has the exact same story, meaning that a future barry fought savitar in the exact same way before him. are there infinite savitars to get trapped over and over or is it the same savitar falling for the same trick over and over ad infinitum?

 

Also, why did the speed force ban travelling to the past to change things, but is apparently fine with barry travelling forward? What's the difference between barry travelling backwards to change things and barry travelling forward, getting the knowledge that future barry would have brought, then travelling back, other that future barry not leaving his point in time?

 really liked the episode though, was dark but not pointlessly so (like say arrow)

 

 

Let's start with this one. There are infinite timelines (ignoring the multiverse for now). When you change one thing, you essentially switch timelines. 

Ex) Barry going to the past to save his mother led to the Flashpoint timeline

 

Savitar said he got the idea for his escape in watching Barry create/discover the Flashpoint timeline presumably from the Speed Force. This likely means that the Speed Force exists outside of time. This also likely means that Savitar was defeated by Barry in a different timeline. 

 

Now recall in the original timeline, Iris wrote the newsletter of Barry's disappearance and that after Barry went to Flashpoint, this had changed (presumably because Savitar kills Iris.) 

 

This means that Iris did not die at the hands of Savitar (at least at that point) in the original timeline. 

 

Things get complicated after this so, to sum up where we are so far: 

 

1. View time travel as changing lanes on a street. All changing the past does is switch you to a different lane that may lead to a different place. 

2. The Speed Force exists outside of all of these timelines and Savitar was trapped there from the original timeline (we will call it timeline A.) 

3. Barry discovered Flashpoint which probably illustrated the above facts to Savitar that he could be free in a different timeline where different events occurred. (Basically, Savitar realized that the timelines are like the multiverse in that they are infinite and infinite in their results. Savitar knows of the multiverse because it is hinted that Jay knew of Savitar) 

 

Now let's continue

 

Barry undoes Flashpoint by having Thawne kill his mother. But this doesn't return us to Timeline A. This creates a new timeline in itself. We shall refer to it as timeline C. 

 

Timeline C includes Savitar's and Barry's knowledge of Flashpoint, which as we have seen led to certain events being altered from the original timeline (Diggle's kid being a boy instead of a girl. Jay told Barry that time fragmented, but this is probably an incorrect interpretation of what he perceived was happening. The slight differences in events are a tip-off that we are in a different timeline.)  

 

Thus, in Timeline C, Savitar could be freed from his prison which exists outside of time itself because of the knowledge of Flashpoint. Savitar and Barry are the only two beings (that we know of) that are not from this specific timeline. 

 

Tldr: The present Savitar is from a future in a different timeline. 

 

As for falling for the same trick twice, this can be explained in two ways

 

1. Timeline switch - Barry ran to a different future than the one he is on course for presently. Given how time travel has been explained on this show (you have to envision where you are going), it is more than possible that Barry's perception of future events led to this. 

 

2. Time wants to happen. We have seen it time and again that time wants to happen and that putting off a problem, compounds it and at best delays the inevitable. Savitar probably realizes this. 

 

Traveling to the Past definitely, alters the timeline of future events because the mere knowledge of it affects things. 

 

Traveling to the future doesn't necessarily do this because of principle 2 above. 

 

Last season set that up for this season. Barry went back in time to discover the secret to the Reverse Flash's speed to use against Zoom. If he doesn't do that, Zoom likely doesn't kill his father and just steals Barry's speed. If Zoom, doesn't kill his father, Barry doesn't create Flashpoint revealing the chance of release to Savitar. (Remember without that, we don't know if Barry would have been fast enough to beat Zoom)

 

On 4/25/2017 at 9:17 PM, Gemstone Mine said:

 

  Hide contents

 

 


 

also, since we know there's a cycle, how do they expect us to believe that the cycle is just arbitrarily broken? TV logic says that it's unlikely that it takes barry the full 5 years or w/e it took barry to beat savitar the first go round, and apparently a barry before him did the same thing, so they better have a damn good explanation for why savitar loses faster this time.

 

Also, I like how they preemptively took time remnants off the table.

 
 

 

3

 

 

Again, if Savitar loses faster the consequences just get delayed and compounded (we have seen this with a bigger big bad every season). Barry has future knowledge now which he will presumably share with this doctor who will also gain future knowledge and shift the timeline to timeline D, but that will, of course, lead to consequences. 

 

As for who Savitar is: I think it is Eddie Thawne. 

 

We haven't seen him since Season 1 where he was sucked into the time vortex. The assumption is that Eddie's death is what erased Eobard from existence, but that may not necessarily be the case. If Eddie doesn't have sex with Eobard's great grandmother, this would also erase him from existence and perhaps Eddie stabbing himself led to that sequence of events instead. 

 

Eddie could have been sent to the speed force where he healed and ended up in the past after he left (explaining his genesis as the first speedster). Time travel would explain the lack of aging (as well as speedster healing factor). It also explains some of Savitar's more interesting dialogue

 

"From my perspective, you're the big bad in choosing to go back in time to change the time line for your self"

 

"I'm sorry that you have to die Iris, but it's your or me."

 

The second quote would be especially consistent with what the speed force has been trying to teach Barry all season."  

 

Just my 2cents

Edited by Francis J Underwood

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+Gemstone Mine    2602

 

 

 

 


 

I still think it's going to be a version of julian. Perhaps it's a time remnant version of julian, but i think there are too many overlaps with the story that julian told and what i understand to be savitar's comic origins, among other reasons like the fact that he's the only member of team flash who isn't affected by savitar. Also, it would explain why killer frost saw who he was and instantly sided with him, because even as killer frost she had a thing for julian, she just hated the fact that he wanted to cure her. An alternate julian who is completely a fan of her being killer frost would win her over in a hearbeat. Also, eddie thawne likely wouldn't win her trust instantly, but julian literally had like a 4 episode character arc where they come to trust each other.

 

Honestly, I would think it would be ronnie more than eddie. It would explain her insta-trust of him, as well, we know firestorm can absorb energy, and we never actually saw what happened to ronnie, whereas we saw thawne die. It's possible that ronnie got shot into the portal when they seperated, and absorbed enough of the speed force to become a speedster. It would also explain his building the savitar suit, because while eddie thawne didn't have any afaik technical proficiency, ronnie was a mechanic.
 

 

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