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On 1/19/2018 at 11:22 PM, Francis J Underwood said:

Idk I feel this season just hasn't been executed well. I feel like the Thinker has too much plot armor. LIke I get that hes a superior intellect, but the writers are putting very little effort into showing it and as a result it just feels random (with Thawne, you got to watch him manipulate Barry into doing what he wanted which is lacking with the Thinker who arguably could benefit from it even more than Thawne did). The other major problem is that the spoiled that villain last season and that Barry will ultimately beat him. Given Barry showed he knows this, it kind ruins any real suspension of disbelief that Barry could believe he was going to lose. 

 

While I appreciate the Thinker showing up more often, it is almost a joke because he doesnt really present a thret. It always "I'm smarter than you. Better luck next time." He doesn't really do anything or present a threat. Would possibly be more interesting if he were fucking with Iris, Cisco's girl, Cecile etc . . . as opposed to Barry 

 

 

 

 

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Okay I had my mini rant. Look this is the problem when you deal with a villain like the Thinker. They give him an insane amount of plot armor and he never seems like a credible threat. 

 

Fwiw, absorbing the metas makes him a much more credible threat in terms of keeping up with Barry. Like I can buy that he can with a fight vs. Barry now (although super human reaction speed should still trump which was emphasized in the nuke episode). However, the Thinker simply isn't a threat and what's worse is that he is a re-hash of Savitar taking everything good about Savitar out. Savitar could predict all of Barry's moves because they were history to Savitar. The Thinker can do it because he simply "out-thinks" them (although unlike Savitar, his predictions are not perfect). Further, they undercut the Thinker by telling us last season that Barry will win, which while we know, completely ruins suspension of disbelief. 

 

The Thinker's backstory is also awful. Ripped straight out of the uni-bomber's manifesto. To me that killed any interest I had in him. 

 

The other villains in Flash were great because

 

1. It was plausible they could pose a threat to Barry physically because they were speedsters. - The Thinker absorbing the metas arguably satisfies this. 

 

2. They were a credible threat because they were savage enough to follow through 

 

1. Thawne psychologically tortured Barry and was the one who killed his mother. He was also a serial killer capable of ending Barry whenever he wanted. He literally toyed with Barry the entire time and was only lost because he was literally erased from history. Barry could not and did not beat him. There was enough intrigue with the identity of Thawne which also made him more interesting. Thawne could not read Barry despite future information because he altered the timeline by being present himself. 

 

2. Zoom was as brutal and sadistic as it got. Literally tossed Barry around like a rag doll and broke him. The whole Caitlyn thing was weird, but Barry still literally had to kill himself to beat Zoom. There was also enough intrigue with Earth 2 and the identity of Zoom . 

 

3. Savitar was once again brutal like Zoom. The difference is future knowledge allowed us to know that Savitar would carry out his threat. It just was not in the way we expected. Once again, toyed with Barry. 

 

The Thinker lacks the ability to carry out a credible threat because he lacks a personal vendetta against Barry. He has a bigger overarching goals (that somehow include Barry and are literally the only reason im still watching) that dont involve putting our hero in credible danger. The Thinker literally does not care about Barry. It makes no difference to him what happens to Barry. Thus, the writers have essentially taken him out of the show. 

 

Honestly, the way to salvage the Thinker was to have him turn Cisco, Caitlyn, Iris, Joe, and Harry into metas and then have him absorb them. That would have made for a much more interesting season as Barry would have had to learn how to do it alone. Fuck, if you gave one of them speedster powers or, just used Earth 2's Jesse Quick or Wally, the Thinker becomes a credible threat that can fuck with Barry and he presents a threat to the hero as he is taking away everyone that Barry loves leaving Barry to learn how to save the world all on his own. 

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+Gemstone Mine    2596
24 minutes ago, Francis J Underwood said:

I hate it when I see missed opportunities for the writers. 

arrow in a nutshell

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Gemstone Mine said:

arrow in a nutshell

Eh I give the Arrow writers more credit. They don't have a ton to work with after setting the bar so high in Season 2. Arrow is at least a bit more interesting with all the dynamics going on. 

 

Like I don't consider myself an amazing writer or even a competent one, but all I did in coming up with the Thinker variant was apply the same formula they used for villains in the first three season. Not sure why the changed lanes so drastically here when following a formula with a few variations is what makes most shows successful. 

Edited by Francis J Underwood

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+Gemstone Mine    2596
3 minutes ago, Francis J Underwood said:

Eh I give the Arrow writers more credit. They don't have a ton to work with after setting the bar so high in Season 2. Arrow is at least a bit more interesting with all the dynamics going on. 

 

 

 

Disagree tbh. Aside from the unsalvagable wreck that was s4, Arrow's had all the right pieces in play, they just can't get it across the finish line. It might speak more that they can even get all the right pieces in play given how much of the universe has been siphoned off by the other 3 series, but it's physically painful that they can get what they need to succeed, they just can't put it together in an order that makes any fucking sense.

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+Gemstone Mine    2596

I'm not even exaggerating about the order thing, this season would have made so much more fucking sense if diaz was the fall guy, he takes over the city, with cayden james lurking in the shadows for the 'hold the entire city hostage' plan as the end game.

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+Gemstone Mine    2596

also, the best thing that could happen to arrow rn is if diaz shoots black siren in the face. Not only is that plot line such a drag, it also takes every character completely out of character.

 

Oliver: My loyal, well-trained team betrayed me once, I must be absolutely on guard against any possible future betrayal.

 

Also Oliver: Black Siren has stabbed us in the back like 3 times now. I should totally trust her.

 

You can't have it both ways.

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5 minutes ago, Gemstone Mine said:

Disagree tbh. Aside from the unsalvagable wreck that was s4, Arrow's had all the right pieces in play, they just can't get it across the finish line. It might speak more that they can even get all the right pieces in play given how much of the universe has been siphoned off by the other 3 series, but it's physically painful that they can get what they need to succeed, they just can't put it together in an order that makes any fucking sense.

Yeah introducing the Flash and Legends into Arrow verse was a trump card for the writers because it literally allows themselves a get out jail free card for any hole they write themselves into. Literally any hole. 

 

I think Diaz is the right type of villain for Arrow. He isn't a meta so there's no suspension of disbelief in fighting him. Also given Oliver has went the "I'm going to be the Mayor" route, his connections and corruption foil that nicely. Arrow just suffers from some of the same problems Flash does. The villain does not have a personal vendetta against the hero so the threat to the hero is never credible. 

 

In Season 1, Dark Arrow aka Malcolm Merlyn has a person grudge against Oliver because Oliver was fucking up his business. Not to mention, Oliver was a completely calm and de-humanized killing machine, which was fucking awesome and the highlight of the season i.e. I have a mission I must accomplish by any means necessary mindset. 

 

In Season 2, Slade had a literal vendetta against Oliver and the culmination of that Vendetta is arguably the high point of the entire show (Although, I though the last two episodes of the season were highlights and really marked Oliver's growth from deranged inhuman killing machine to real actual person). 

 

Season 3, The League had no vendetta against Oliver. 

 

Season 4, Darhk had no vendetta against Oliver. The power scale also created an issue creating a reverse situation of the formula described in the previous post i.e suspension of disbelief was ruined because Oliver really had no plausible way of being Darhk. 

 

Season 5, while they finally reintroduced a villain with a person vendetta, it was just poorly done. They never fleshed out his vendetta or how Oliver really fit into it. Further, even with training its dubious to me, at best, that he could have presented even a semblance of a threat to Oliver. I think part of the reason they added the mayor situation was to give future villains a way to attack Oliver. 

 

Season 6 first half, James was just an awful villain to me. To much spoon-feeding us "all went according to plan." To make those types of villains good, you have to show how each little act led to the ultimate conclusion (like they did with Thawne in Flash). 

 

Season 6, second half, Diaz presents a credible threat to Oliver both politically and physically (by way of numbers not a one on one fight. They confirmed Oliver would win in the battle for honor). Further, Diaz is taking advantage of Oliver's weakness to pit his loved ones against one another which is being done well (although its not entertaining to watch). However, it does explain Oliver's return to solo mission mode. 

 

While I think Arrow suffers from the same issues as Flash, i think two other problems pervade the series. 

 

1. First, I think that the existence of the rest of Arrow-verse makes the show boring in comparison. Simply put, Arrow cannot pull of the same things as Flash, Supergirl, or Legends, which viewers have been accustomed to and now crave. 

 

2. Second is pacing. I think CW shows as a whole are suffering from shitty pacing overall. Look at Seasons 1 and 2 of both Arrow and Flash. Both the villains and plans were developed meticulously with each reveal logically placed and only revealing enough to leave the viewers with more questions. This gave the viewers incentive to really pay attention and formulate theories as the writers left breadcrumbs for the viewer to pick up on the entire time in hindsight. 

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27 minutes ago, Gemstone Mine said:

also, the best thing that could happen to arrow rn is if diaz shoots black siren in the face. Not only is that plot line such a drag, it also takes every character completely out of character.

 

Oliver: My loyal, well-trained team betrayed me once, I must be absolutely on guard against any possible future betrayal.

 

Also Oliver: Black Siren has stabbed us in the back like 3 times now. I should totally trust her.

I dont mind Oliver trusting Siren. Siren's nature is self-preservation. Taking out Diaz aligns with that goal so Oliver has no reason not trust her since their goals align. Yes, Siren could be pulling the wool over Oliver's eyes, but its implied that was considered and rationalized away by the above. 

 

Best thing that could happen right now is for Diaz to kill off William. Like realistically, that is the best possible thing to happen. He is by far the most annoying actor/character on the entire show. Every scene he is in literally just chews up time. Killing him off might cause Oliver to revert to Season 1 Oliver, which would be amazing. It would truly test his character development in a way that they missed on with killing off Laurel. 

 

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+Gemstone Mine    2596
16 minutes ago, Francis J Underwood said:

I dont mind Oliver trusting Siren. Siren's nature is self-preservation. Taking out Diaz aligns with that goal so Oliver has no reason not trust her since their goals align. Yes, Siren could be pulling the wool over Oliver's eyes, but its implied that was considered and rationalized away by the above.

 

 which you might believe if it weren't for the fact that this is the 4th fucking time she's played that card, 3 of which was against non-metas, ie people she hilariously outclasses.

 

Also, I honestly don't mind William. Mostly because it's the arrow equivilent of 'dbz has a strong female character and puts a baby in her to keep her out of the way of the main story'. Except unlike dbz chacacters, Felicity actually deserves it. The series is way better with 90% less Dr. Phil starring Oliver and Felicity (although I don't subscribe to the  apparently common belief that Felicity is the worst part of Arrow, she's just a symptom of the problem. the most reoccuring symptom). Felicity is way better when she's kept in the bunker as Overwatch and a one liner machine, she does not have the backstory and emotional range to carry a main character role.

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+Gemstone Mine    2596
 

 


diaz is so ineffective as a big bad that he doesn't even show up to his own season finale.

 

Like, I'd like to think that the people at CW realized that Diaz could have been so much more given more time, but I know they aren't going to deliver.

 

Also, they killed the wrong fucking lance. And the only thing keeping Olicity afloat. And his death was absolute bullshit. He's ok, no, wait, we off-screened him, nvm.

 

The only good thing coming out of this finale is that with Sara and Siren being formally introduced, Siren might become a Legend. Which is apparently the equivalent of basic training for CW characters, they show up useless pieces of shit and they come out all stars.

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NB96    838

I can't believe that they spend so much time on Caitlin wanting Killer Frost back and unfunny scenes of Wells losing his intelligence and memory (which they could have done some kind of commentary of dementia/alzheimers instead of terrible comedic relief as I have seen other people mention and might actually be interesting) and the most painfully unfunny scene I have ever watched featuring Cecile and a pizza delivery guy. These writers must be banned from writing comedic scenes, they're just a little bit shit at it.

 

Also those writers do realise this is the penultimate episode right? They spent so much time on filler that we still don't know why the Thinker needs Barry for his plan. They have a great deal to cover in the finale and I suspect the Thinker does NOT need Barry because the writers decided they left it too late since the had so much filler instead of progressing the story. Maybe I will be wrong and they will answer those questions but I seriously doubt it.

 

The show has gone so far downhill now that it's astonishing. I just can't understand how you go from season 1 to this. And even season 1 had it's problems (revealing Wells as Reverse Flash in episode 1 when it could have been a shock reveal later on). But still way better than this garbage. I will likely avoid season 5 unless they somehow make an amazing villain which I doubt they are capable of anymore.

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Faint    5825

but what do you REALLY think? ;)

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+Gemstone Mine    2596
 

 


So wait, did they leave Ralph with devoe's nigh-omnipotent powers, or are they bullshitting that when ralph pushed devoe out of his mind and he shifted into the chair he took all of the other meta powers with him? I assume it's the latter, but still.

 

Finale was super predictable.  Wasn't as atrociously bad as arrow's, but definitely wasn't good.

 

Here's hoping supergirl does it up right.
 

 

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NB96    838
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Gemstone Mine said:
  Reveal hidden contents

Yes it was an okay finale but nothing special. To me it didn't even feel like a finale though, just another episode. Season 1 and 2's finales felt like ends to the season, season 3 perhaps too but this was just felt like another episode.

 

 

Why did The Thinker return to life for 30 seconds and then die again? What was the point of that scene? They could have just taken it out I suppose. Also for all the building up of his intelligence, he was defeated by Barry just brute forcing his way to victory... really? The way The Thinker was defeated was very disappointing for me, and not as exciting as you would hope for a season finale.

 

Overall, it was just another okay-ish episode. I hope season 5 will be better if I even bother to stick around for it at this point.

 

Edited by NB96

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+Gemstone Mine    2596
 

 


Honestly, despite how predictable it was, it was good enough warrant being called passable up until that scene. That sequence sunk the entire episode.

 

'I now possess the ability to move my mind and powers into technology. I foresaw the sequence of events that could lead to my defeat. Not only did I not chose to take preemptive defensive measures, instead of relying on the power of my mind which I know had a chance of failing, I failed to figure out what the hell was the plan if I did have to resort to reincarnation. Even though I have plenty of time to figure out how to, I don't know, make myself a new body to move into (keep in mind, devoe knew about individuals on multiple earths, which means that he knew about shit like Red Tornado if he wanted an android body), put my mind somewhere where no one can get to it and remote control from there, hide so team flash thinks I'm defeated then come back later, or literally any of the good options, I'm going to use it to sit semi-menacingly in a chair, spout random non-sense to my ex, then die again when she just casually walks forward and yanks the plug. And then make the satellites fall out of spite.  This plan makes absolute sense, and was made with the kind of calculations only my mind can handle.
 

 

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, NB96 said:

Yes it was an okay finale but nothing special. To me it didn't even feel like a finale though, just another episode. Season 1 and 2's finales felt like ends to the season, season 3 perhaps too but this was just felt like another episode.

 

  Hide contents

Why did The Thinker return to life for 30 seconds and then die again? What was the point of that scene? They could have just taken it out I suppose. Also for all the building up of his intelligence, he was defeated by Barry just brute forcing his way to victory... really? The way The Thinker was defeated was very disappointing for me, and not as exciting as you would hope for a season finale.

 

Overall, it was just another okay-ish episode. I hope season 5 will be better if I even bother to stick around for it at this point.

 

Point of that scene was so that they could bring him back at some point. Technical reincarnation and all that jazz. He probably backed himself up in a pocket dimension. He obviously figured out he would die from the collapse of a satellite destroying the chair if Marlize hadn't done it first.

Edited by Francis J Underwood

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13 hours ago, Gemstone Mine said:
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Honestly, despite how predictable it was, it was good enough warrant being called passable up until that scene. That sequence sunk the entire episode.

 

'I now possess the ability to move my mind and powers into technology. I foresaw the sequence of events that could lead to my defeat. Not only did I not chose to take preemptive defensive measures, instead of relying on the power of my mind which I know had a chance of failing, I failed to figure out what the hell was the plan if I did have to resort to reincarnation. Even though I have plenty of time to figure out how to, I don't know, make myself a new body to move into (keep in mind, devoe knew about individuals on multiple earths, which means that he knew about shit like Red Tornado if he wanted an android body), put my mind somewhere where no one can get to it and remote control from there, hide so team flash thinks I'm defeated then come back later, or literally any of the good options, I'm going to use it to sit semi-menacingly in a chair, spout random non-sense to my ex, then die again when she just casually walks forward and yanks the plug. And then make the satellites fall out of spite.  This plan makes absolute sense, and was made with the kind of calculations only my mind can handle.
 

 

Fwiw, the Thinker struggles with predicting the future as has been evidenced multiple times. His plan would have worked if Barry had acted alone which was shown on screen. He probably didn't predict a literal fucking paradox occurring with Nora returning to help her father speed punch the satellite.

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