Jump to content
ACP

A Treatise Regarding Exarion Universe

Recommended Posts

+ACP+    33891

How am I being dumb by saying that there were no tournaments where Exarion was legal and CRV wasn't?

 

Apparently I'm the dummy in this argument for actually checking legality dates, tournament policy, and tournament decklists instead of appealing to a hypothetical scenario that didn't actually happen.

 

But someone could've gotten a copy early, and gone to a non-existent regional and played it! Like how is that even an argument. The fact that something "could have happened" is completely irrelevant to anything. Unless said thing actually happened, why do we care?

 

Maybe we should also talk about how Crush Card Virus was accidentally released a few weeks early and how at SJC Orlando 2007 someone could've showed up with one of two copies in the world that had accidentally disseminated prior to its official release as a prize card.

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+Urthor    10206

Who cares, I doubt anyone really wants to play with Exarion ever again after seeing the way Exarion has influenced goats.  

 

 

If there is going to be any point of debate come June when we've had 2 months of past format warring, it won't be Exarion.  It'll be whether we want to put back in place bans on Burn cards, Dustshoot & similar stuff going forward after having 2 months of a free for all on that front.  

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TFJ    630
So because Stratos had a Jump where early copies where had, that is a real format.
But because Exarion had nothing, he never existed.

A tournament existing as such does not determine legality.
No one besides you is actually talking about tournament play. They are strictly talking legality date. You are the only one who seems to think a tournament existing is meaningful.
  • Upvote 1
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jazz    4716
This is sad. Allen's post was intellectually stimulting and the conversation has devolved into a squabble about the release date of a tin vs booster sets.

Even if this hypothetical 1 week format happened, it sucked in comparison to the definitively good 10 week format that preceded it. Let's talk about that.
  • Upvote 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+Gemstone Mine    2584

thats more because no one here is honestly against what allen is saying, most of the people in this thread as far as I can tell are anti-exarion, so there are a limited amount of I agree this to say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+ACP+    33891

Sorry, non-evidence based arguments are just one of my pet peeves. I'll agree to drop it so we can actually talk about things that people give a shit about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
OD Superman    1125

Here's my take:

1. IMO it isn't so important to play a historically accurate format. 

 

2. IMO Exarion made the format better. I feel like my deck is made more solid by the inclusion of Exarion and I think 1-of cards like Asura, Kycoo, Reaper, and Blade Knight are terrible additions to the format that are too easy to counter yet create too many runaway scenarios, which just makes for a more luck-based game. That's why I favor the inclusion of Exarion as a way to raise the bar, so to speak.

 

3. IMO Exarion itself doesn't have enough counters, and Allen is right to believe it's a problem. I believe Cydra is a fair counter so I'm open to changing the way we play Goats by including CRV or using Goat Format as a starting point for a new, custom-made format. I really, really wish people would start taking the latter idea seriously.

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jazz    4716

2. IMO Exarion made the format better. I feel like my deck is made more solid by the inclusion of Exarion and I think 1-of cards like Asura, Kycoo, Reaper, and Blade Knight are terrible additions to the format that are too easy to counter yet create too many runaway scenarios, which just makes for a more luck-based game. That's why I favor the inclusion of Exarion as a way to raise the bar, so to speak.

 

Of course it's more solid with Exarion, it's a better card than those you listed.

 

I think what you're saying has some merit though. I find it easier to press my advantage with Exarions. Without them the game might drag a bit too much. It's really hard to tell and I'm actually not sure what I like better--with Exarion or without, but I feel like I need to keep playing more mirrors without before I can fairly judge.

 

And I'm still waiting on you to make that custom format. You make it and I will play it. ;)

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Grimey    8197

Custom format for goats sounds pretty disgusting unless by custom you literally just mean banning Deliquent Duo in which case I 100% support this cause. 

  • Downvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+Urthor    10206

Without them the game might drag a bit too much

 
Idk about you but I don't see how having a longer slower game can really be a bad thing.  Games dragging on is something to love about goats, more turns more interaction more decision, not something to say "oh okay that's enough, too many decision trees no thanks no more." 
 
 
Regardless yea, for all the people crossing themselves and crying out cyber dragon is the enemy, it changed the attack stat tiers and ruined Yugioh, the interaction between goats and Cyber Dragon seems pretty fucking phenomenal and would make an unbelievable format, the only real issue I've ever seen raised to dispute Cyber Dragon having a positive impact on a format is limiter removal, which is a completely separate card anyway.  
 
Kris is right though, historical accuracy isn't really needed.  Personally I'd rather play a custom designed format that feel the need to cleave to reality because "that's how it was back than."
 

Custom format for goats sounds pretty disgusting unless by custom you literally just mean banning Deliquent Duo in which case I 100% support this cause.


If you take Duo away, the problem is that means there's 1 less card making Magician of Faith good all of a sudden. The trinity's role is to be power cards and targets for MoF, even though they lead to pretty unreal one sidedness at times, they're an integral part of the Magician of Faith equation itself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jazz    4716

 

 Without them the game might drag a bit too much

 

Idk about you but I don't see how having a longer slower game can really be a bad thing.  Games dragging on is something to love about goats, more turns more interaction more decision, not something to say "oh okay that's enough, too many decision trees no thanks no more." 

 

I'm not exactly sure how I feel about it, but here is my line of thought: The name of the game is grinding out advantage. If you have advantage, but you have no cards to press or close the deal, the game becomes about:

 

(1) Can the player who's down draw their outs? (BLS, snatch, ring) Perhaps without exarion they have too much time. For example in a given game state a losing player has say 2 of 20 outs left in deck. In Exarion Goats they have 3 turns to draw them, but in Exarionless Goats they might have 8 turns to draw them.

 

(2) Who is going to deck out first? If you cannot deal lethal damage, you cannot win, no matter how far "ahead" you are. This has happened to me a few times particularly when my BLS hits the GY via merchant, morphing jar, or duo. I find this very frustrating.

 

Perhaps this is more of an argument for needing a monster like Exarion in your deck, but it turns out no monster can press more reliably in a simplified game state except probably Airknight. Maybe I should be packing a tech Stealth Bird.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Grimey    8197
Grimey, on 20 Apr 2015 - 01:11 AM, said:

Custom format for goats sounds pretty disgusting unless by custom you literally just mean banning Deliquent Duo in which case I 100% support this cause.


If you take Duo away, the problem is that means there's 1 less card making Magician of Faith good all of a sudden. The trinity's role is to be power cards and targets for MoF, even though they lead to pretty unreal one sidedness at times, they're an integral part of the Magician of Faith equation itself.

 

 

...what???????????????????

 

come on urthor 

 

come the fuck on 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+Gemstone Mine    2584

2. IMO Exarion made the format better. I feel like my deck is made more solid by the inclusion of Exarion and I think 1-of cards like Asura, Kycoo, Reaper, and Blade Knight are terrible additions to the format that are too easy to counter yet create too many runaway scenarios, which just makes for a more luck-based game. That's why I favor the inclusion of Exarion as a way to raise the bar, so to speak.

 

Heres the thing though, I feel like exarion is more likely going run away with the game than any other card you just listed, because they all have very relevant downsides that make it hard to stick them, keep them around, or make them useful. I mean, really, how many times have you heard someone say "man, that asura priest wiping my board every turn without pushing for any damage cost me the game"? Is it possible for it to happen? Definately, but  Exarion on the other hand because it is so damn hard to actually answer because of the combination of having higher attack than anything but breaker and tribs and higher defense than anyhting but tribs is much more likely to run away with the game. I mean, I feel like the only increased varience it would give would be seeing the right half of your 1ofs vs wrong half and losing because you bricked, but that would be deckbuilder and tech error more than anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Grimey    8197

I can't believe I just read someone trying to justify Duo's existence by stating that it makes Magician of Faith a better card

 

If the entirety of the trinity was banned I'd still play Magician of Faith, have you read the fucking card? 

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+Urthor    10206

I can't believe I just read someone trying to justify Duo's existence by stating that it makes Magician of Faith a better card

 

If the entirety of the trinity was banned I'd still play Magician of Faith, have you read the fucking card? 

 

I wouldn't call Duo something that should be knee jerk banned, unlike dustshoot.  If we're going to be explicitly making a completely unhistorical custom banlist shoot will be the first card to go without a doubt.  

 

I'm just saying, the interaction between the trinity and MoF is the entire point of the trinity. Duo could probably go but auto banning duo/pot/graceful because "any 1 of power card that gives you a +1 for nothing is bad," isn't smart at all.  And we'd have to think pretty hard about banning Duo in any case.  

  • Downvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+Urthor    10206

 

 

 Without them the game might drag a bit too much

 

Idk about you but I don't see how having a longer slower game can really be a bad thing.  Games dragging on is something to love about goats, more turns more interaction more decision, not something to say "oh okay that's enough, too many decision trees no thanks no more." 

 

I'm not exactly sure how I feel about it, but here is my line of thought: The name of the game is grinding out advantage. If you have advantage, but you have no cards to press or close the deal, the game becomes about:

 

(1) Can the player who's down draw their outs? (BLS, snatch, ring) Perhaps without exarion they have too much time. For example in a given game state a losing player has say 2 of 20 outs left in deck. In Exarion Goats they have 3 turns to draw them, but in Exarionless Goats they might have 8 turns to draw them.

 

(2) Who is going to deck out first? If you cannot deal lethal damage, you cannot win, no matter how far "ahead" you are. This has happened to me a few times particularly when my BLS hits the GY via merchant, morphing jar, or duo. I find this very frustrating.

 

Perhaps this is more of an argument for needing a monster like Exarion in your deck, but it turns out no monster can press more reliably in a simplified game state except probably Airknight. Maybe I should be packing a tech Stealth Bird.

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I'm reading it sorta seems like your idea of having an advantage in Goats seems a bit rigidly based around 2-3 cards ahead, having tempo and dictating the state of play; and you feel that when a player gets 2-3 cards ahead and has board control they should be able to lock out the duel just like that and call it a win.    

 

Beating someone down with a dominant set up b4 they topdeck an answer isn't the only deserving way of winning goats, nor do players need to be playing a game of a lot of moderately sized pushes and counter pushes. The Goat format where players lock them field down and set up some critical end game turns are just as good.  

 

Honestly the Goat games where both players are completely denied any sort of win condition as they're fighting each other to dictate play in very unsimplified game states would probably count as the best games of Yugioh I've played in my life.  Games that revolve around setting up for a turn 30 win, or one player forcing the other to deckout without the help of jars, as the other attempts to break out of his opponent's control of the gamestate, those are what I dream of when I play goats.  

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jazz    4716

 

 

 

 Without them the game might drag a bit too much

 

Idk about you but I don't see how having a longer slower game can really be a bad thing.  Games dragging on is something to love about goats, more turns more interaction more decision, not something to say "oh okay that's enough, too many decision trees no thanks no more." 

 

I'm not exactly sure how I feel about it, but here is my line of thought: The name of the game is grinding out advantage. If you have advantage, but you have no cards to press or close the deal, the game becomes about:

 

(1) Can the player who's down draw their outs? (BLS, snatch, ring) Perhaps without exarion they have too much time. For example in a given game state a losing player has say 2 of 20 outs left in deck. In Exarion Goats they have 3 turns to draw them, but in Exarionless Goats they might have 8 turns to draw them.

 

(2) Who is going to deck out first? If you cannot deal lethal damage, you cannot win, no matter how far "ahead" you are. This has happened to me a few times particularly when my BLS hits the GY via merchant, morphing jar, or duo. I find this very frustrating.

 

Perhaps this is more of an argument for needing a monster like Exarion in your deck, but it turns out no monster can press more reliably in a simplified game state except probably Airknight. Maybe I should be packing a tech Stealth Bird.

 

 

 you feel that when a player gets 2-3 cards ahead and has board control they should be able to lock out the duel just like that and call it a win.    

 

 

Yeah, as long as he/she plays it out "correctly". I find it infuriating when I am up 2-3 in advantage and cannot close it out due to drawing junk. But again this is probably a deck building issue I have in no exarion--I need to find the right presser--but I'm not convinced it exists, and maybe as Kris says goat is a more skillful game (in-game, not deck building) when everyone has a generic presser.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+Urthor    10206

Kris' point was that the upside of playing with Exarion is making the format is a more concentrated format, not having a beater that closes out games.  There's fewer situational cards like Blade, Asura etc that you can't get a read on but turn the duel around on their own because they happen to counter your play completely in a certain situation.  

 

His argument is that if you're playing Exarion, you at least know the format's resolving around Exarion so you can predict what's coming and play around it, more so than the Asura priest out of nowhere.  But then, since Exarion's piercing it warps the format away from Scapegoat.  

 

You can also have a format concentrated around 1 specific non-piercing beater, Cyber Dragon, and I think that's probably a lot better than Exarion or pre-Exarion goats.  

 

 

But yeah if not being able to close out duels when you're 2-3 cards ahead and have tempo infuriates you, then it's hilarious that you've been behind goat format of all things.  I'm pretty sure of all the formats between April 05 and The Shining Darkness, Goat Format is the format with the most options for escape, not the least.  It's the format where microcosmal advantage is the least relevant, and extending in order to tempo someone out for the win is punished the most.  You should probably have devoted those years of your life towards advocating some other past format.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jazz    4716

I'm pretty sure I'm playing a format I enjoy lol

 

You missed my point about "playing things out correctly", i.e. carefully and in a calculated manner. I don't think you should overlook this as a given. It's a simple skill in theory but difficult to perfect.

 

Of course it's just as fun to be on the other end, down in advantage, and to claw back. But I don't think it should be extremely easy. That plays along with Kris's point about dropping one-off outers. There is a fine line between giving leading players win conditions and lagging players comeback opportunities. No good game should tip too far to either side. That's definitely something to consider.

 

I'm just trying to play devil's advocate about the actual topic of this treatise

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+Gemstone Mine    2584

You can also have a format concentrated around 1 specific non-piercing beater, Cyber Dragon, and I think that's probably a lot better than Exarion or pre-Exarion goats.  

 

From what I understand of it (never played crv goats tho), the issue with crv goats is less to do with cydra crowding out a lot of other picks (athough that is a factor), and more to do with us not wanting to invite in what else crv brings (stein otk, cyber twin in general). The change to the format cydra brings in general wasn't worth what else came with it to be worth playing the format over pre-crv goats.  I mean, we could ban all that shit, but i mean, really? Why are we playing that format at that point if we have to honor ban a bunch of shit to make it worth playing over pre-crv. Essentially, cyber dragon was of very arguable benefit to the format, and everything else that came with it was detrimental, so it just nets negative.

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+Logic    2035
Let's say we agree that Exarion limits deck choices in the sense that it incentives the mirror more, and playing a super skills based mirror is obviously of the highlights of goats. The downside is that there's less room for innovation and the threat of stagnation is higher.

Exarion goats streamlines why people play goat format in the first place.


What if we actknowledge Exarion goats as a format with honour bans, and Exarion-less goats as a format that doesn't? you're more guarenteed the consistent format with just enough wiggle room for tech, or the slightly more innovatie format with more archetype variance.

Win-win.

Also, and I don't know how relevant this is, but one of the more unique aspects of Goats were the regional diversities in the meta; I think I remember the Intro to Goat Format noting that also. Any card I remember falling in that category overlap with the list in OP of cards that lose most of their playability when Exarion exists.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+Logic    2035



You can also have a format concentrated around 1 specific non-piercing beater, Cyber Dragon, and I think that's probably a lot better than Exarion or pre-Exarion goats.  

 
From what I understand of it (never played crv goats tho), the issue with crv goats is less to do with cydra crowding out a lot of other picks (athough that is a factor), and more to do with us not wanting to invite in what else crv brings (stein otk, cyber twin in general). The change to the format cydra brings in general wasn't worth what else came with it to be worth playing the format over pre-crv goats.  I mean, we could ban all that shit, but i mean, really? Why are we playing that format at that point if we have to honor ban a bunch of shit to make it worth playing over pre-crv. Essentially, cyber dragon was of very arguable benefit to the format, and everything else that came with it was detrimental, so it just nets negative.

i like this.

I don't even think it takes much testing to realize between Stein, twin, cyber end dragon, and kinda dimension wall, you're enabling a lot of things that conflict with why people play the format.

I would also theorize that the legality of Cydra increases the playability of Limiter, Brain Control, Chaos Sorc, and consequently Return. Cydra/Limiter/Ring for 8000 is lame enough.

I think 3 months of CRV goats and the format wouldn't even look the same. Not saying it would be better or worse, but I think the formats would hardly be comparible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+Urthor    10206

There's already enough options for degenerate decks in goats that anyone actually participating in warring is sacrificing their war record in the name of actual fun by not rotating through Burn/DMOC launch/other vs unprepared opponents.  Post-CRV doesn't sound like it'd be very different to pre-CRV realistically.  

 

With warring being nothing like the demands of going x-1 and topping a swiss tournament, the fact is anyone not maintaining a solid 60-70% win rate by rotating through burn/et all is basically is being nice to your opponents and not playing for the win.  That's the situation as I see it atm, and saying there's new methods post-CRV seems moot when the fact is the optimal strategy pre-CRV is already playing alt-win, not interacting g1, running the odds your opponent won't know/won't have/won't draw a sideplan g2/3 that gives him a favourable matchup vs you.   

 

If you can shift from Ben Kei to DMOC launch at the click of your fingers, ofc it's better to try and hit up your opponent with a build they haven't prepared for, score the win then shift to another deck.  

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+Logic    2035

There's already enough options for degenerate decks in goats that anyone actually participating in warring is sacrificing their war record in the name of actual fun by not rotating through Burn/DMOC launch/other vs unprepared opponents.  Post-CRV doesn't sound like it'd be very different to pre-CRV realistically.  
 
With warring being nothing like the demands of going x-1 and topping a swiss tournament, the fact is anyone not maintaining a solid 60-70% win rate by rotating through burn/et all is basically is being nice to your opponents and not playing for the win.  That's the situation as I see it atm, and saying there's new methods post-CRV seems moot when the fact is the optimal strategy pre-CRV is already playing alt-win, not interacting g1, running the odds your opponent won't know/won't have/won't draw a sideplan g2/3 that gives him a favourable matchup vs you.   
 
If you can shift from Ben Kei to DMOC launch at the click of your fingers, ofc it's better to try and hit up your opponent with a build they haven't prepared for, score the win then shift to another deck.

Until you remember you could side from stein into slowburn and then even siding can be irrelevant. Hell even some people ran the 'standard play yugioh deck" and sided into stein.

When Stein was ebanned, the format had 0 snatch, 1 Limiter, 1 Last Will, i think 2 Trunade, and no PoG. The deck would be mad consistent.

Tundo is actually a thing in that format also because Magical Explosion, and that's twice as consistent as dmoc. Can you imagine seeing people trying to correctly play that deck on DN?

Sorry, digressing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×