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A Treatise Regarding Exarion Universe

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petersylie    56

Interesting discussion. Being an old school player myself and having played competitively in 2005, I would prefer playing without Exarion for authenticity reasons. However, I also think that authenticity should not be the main factor when playing a 10-year old format on a competitive level.

 

Exarion has, just like any other card, strenghts and weaknesses. Does it outclass other similar card choices like Blade Knight, Asura Priest, D.D. Assailant? Maybe it does, maybe not. It's not like those cards are now totally obsolete because of Exarion. They still have a niche and they provide enough reasons (being a Light, monster removal) to be played. The only cards that Exarion made obsolete were Enraged Battle Ox and Kycoo. But Exarion also opens up new doors for new cards to be discovered and for new plays to become more popular. For example, I play 2 Don Zaloog in my Warrior build precisely because of Exarion. I don't know how many times they lost a card because they attacked my set Don, then lost Exarion next turn via Smashing Ground. I think there are many ways of getting rid of it or even create advantage against it.

 

Stil, I would like to see a format without Exarion, simply because of nostalgic reasons.

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+ACP+    33886
Man, I have so many ridiculous posts to respond to when I get home. I think my strategy is going to be respond to every post individually and try to set a DGz record for largest number of successive posts by the same user.

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wonderPreaux    1432

Man, I have so many ridiculous posts to respond to when I get home. I think my strategy is going to be respond to every post individually and try to set a DGz record for largest number of successive posts by the same user.

inb4 Atem bans you to defend his title...

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-L2theZ-    1623

Here are a list of cards that I have observed to be effective in your average Exarion-less goat deck that I would argue are almost entirely unplayable in the world of Exarion Universe:
- Blade Knight
- Asura Priest
- D.D. Assailant
- Mystic Tomato
- Big Shield Gardna
- Apprentice Magician
- Skilled White Magician
- Dekoichi, the Battlechanted Locomotive
- Spirit Reaper
- Kycoo the Ghost Destroyer
It is also debatable whether D.D. Warrior Lady is playable in a format with Exarion Universe. Personally, I still play it, but the community seems to mostly disagree with my assessment. If you want, you can add that to the list too.


While Exarion does impact the playability of some of those cards I think the reality is that over 10 years of playing the format with the last 3 seeing a ton of people play the format has simply shifted and people have gotten better and have moved away from what is basically a list of mediocre cards.

In the past 3 years that Thunder Dragon deck became a thing, double Airknight becoming the norm even with Exarion around, and Merchant and Dust Tornado taking off in popularity. While compared to the 2005 lists nobody is running a ton of cards that were popular back then.

Charlotte main deck numbers:
Jinzo: 5
Bottomless Trap Hole: 6
Lightning Vortex: 5
Creature Swap: 5
Smashing Ground: 5
Swords of Revealing Light: 5
Dust Tornado: 6
Airknight Parshath: 8
Dekoichi: 0

Nats main deck numbers:
Jinzo: 8
Bottomless Trap Hole: 6
Lightning Vortex: 6
Creature Swap: 3
Smashing Ground: 4
Swords of Revealing Light: 7
Dust Tornado: 3
Airknight Parshath: 8
Dekoichi: 0

Seattle main deck numbers:
Jinzo: 4
Bottomless Trap Hole: 0
Lightning Vortex: 7
Creature Swap: 1
Smashing Ground: 4
Swords of Revealing Light: 6
Dust Tornado: 11
Airknight Parshath: 11
Dekoichi: 0

Indianapolis main deck numbers:
Jinzo: 4
Bottomless Trap Hole: 2
Lightning Vortex: 5
Creature Swap: 1
Smashing Ground: 0
Swords of Revealing Light: 8
Dust Tornado: 3
Airknight Parshath: 9
Dekoichi: 0

Vortex, Swords, and Jinzo were all super popular and now I very rarely see Jinzo on DN and never see Vortex or Swords used even though I do see Dekoichi very often.
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+mmf+    23113
yes, mediocre because exarion exists. what exactly is the point of the above post

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Here are a list of cards that I have observed to be effective in your average Exarion-less goat deck that I would argue are almost entirely unplayable in the world of Exarion Universe:
- Blade Knight
- Asura Priest
- D.D. Assailant
- Mystic Tomato
- Big Shield Gardna
- Apprentice Magician
- Skilled White Magician
- Dekoichi, the Battlechanted Locomotive
- Spirit Reaper
- Kycoo the Ghost Destroyer
It is also debatable whether D.D. Warrior Lady is playable in a format with Exarion Universe. Personally, I still play it, but the community seems to mostly disagree with my assessment. If you want, you can add that to the list too.


While Exarion does impact the playability of some of those cards I think the reality is that over 10 years of playing the format with the last 3 seeing a ton of people play the format has simply shifted and people have gotten better and have moved away from what is basically a list of mediocre cards.

In the past 3 years that Thunder Dragon deck became a thing, double Airknight becoming the norm even with Exarion around, and Merchant and Dust Tornado taking off in popularity. While compared to the 2005 lists nobody is running a ton of cards that were popular back then.

 

I don't get what you are trying to say. The above cards are only mediorce and unplayable because of exarion. Dekoiki slightly less so than the others to the point where it would be somewhat playable in exarion format, but most of the other cards are just straight up crowded out by exarion, so of course they wouldn't be played in a exarion format. In a format without exarion they still aren't the end all be all like exarion is of the designated beater slot, but they are very strong flex picks that aren't normally available with exarion legal, so people can build and tech with them as they want (I personally have become a huge fan of blade knight over playing exarionless, but I know a lot of other people won't touch it). That's pretty good progress

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-L2theZ-    1623

yes, mediocre because exarion exists. what exactly is the point of the above post


Mediocre because they're mediocre.

The point is over the last 10 years of playing the format Swords, Lightning Vortex, and Jinzo went from borderline staples to seeing no use and I'm pretty sure that everyone getting better and the format evolving is the reason for that shift in card use, not Exarion.

Exarion is probably causing Asura Priest, Skilled White Magician, Spirit Reaper, and maybe Dekoichi to see less play (although I'd say double Tsuku is what's really holding back Asura and I see Dekoichi fairly often). I wouldn't expect any of the other cards listed to suddenly rise in popularity if we got rid of Exarion because much like Lightning Vortex and Swords of Revealing Light they haven't held up very well.

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+mmf+    23113
mediocrity isn't an inherent quality in cards. the only thing that ever makes a card mediocre is another card or group of cards being better than it
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+ACP+    33886

Here's my take:

1. IMO it isn't so important to play a historically accurate format. 

 

2. IMO Exarion made the format better. I feel like my deck is made more solid by the inclusion of Exarion and I think 1-of cards like Asura, Kycoo, Reaper, and Blade Knight are terrible additions to the format that are too easy to counter yet create too many runaway scenarios, which just makes for a more luck-based game. That's why I favor the inclusion of Exarion as a way to raise the bar, so to speak.

 

3. IMO Exarion itself doesn't have enough counters, and Allen is right to believe it's a problem. I believe Cydra is a fair counter so I'm open to changing the way we play Goats by including CRV or using Goat Format as a starting point for a new, custom-made format. I really, really wish people would start taking the latter idea seriously.

1. I think most people would agree that is at least somewhat slightly just a little relevant.

 

2. Saying that a card makes a deck better doesn't have any bearing on whether said card is good for the format. If you think that cards like Asura, Kycoo, Reaper, and Blade Knight create "runaway" scenarios then you are clearly playing a different yugioh than I am. Kycoo and Reaper certainly don't. Blade Knight can randomly beat hands of like Dekoichi+Faith+Morphing jar, and Asura Priest can randomly beat hands of Goat x2, Meta x2, but that's doesn't mean either is bad for the format. Blade Knight is a card that you can play around (by setting non-flip effect monsters), and Asura Priest is downright terrible vs some decks (aggro in particular). Exarion Universe being low variance doesn't necessarily make for a skill-based game. It's a lot easier to misplay your Kycoo than it is to misplay your Exarion Universe. That's because it's almost impossible to misplay your Exarion Universe.

 

3. Can't contest either of these points. At some point, I would like for DGz to try warring with CRV+Exarion goats. But hell, it was hard convincing them to war goats at all.

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2. IMO Exarion made the format better. I feel like my deck is made more solid by the inclusion of Exarion and I think 1-of cards like Asura, Kycoo, Reaper, and Blade Knight are terrible additions to the format that are too easy to counter yet create too many runaway scenarios, which just makes for a more luck-based game. That's why I favor the inclusion of Exarion as a way to raise the bar, so to speak.

 

Of course it's more solid with Exarion, it's a better card than those you listed.

 

I think what you're saying has some merit though. I find it easier to press my advantage with Exarions. Without them the game might drag a bit too much. It's really hard to tell and I'm actually not sure what I like better--with Exarion or without, but I feel like I need to keep playing more mirrors without before I can fairly judge.

 

And I'm still waiting on you to make that custom format. You make it and I will play it. ;)

 

 

 

 

 Without them the game might drag a bit too much

 

Idk about you but I don't see how having a longer slower game can really be a bad thing.  Games dragging on is something to love about goats, more turns more interaction more decision, not something to say "oh okay that's enough, too many decision trees no thanks no more." 

 

I'm not exactly sure how I feel about it, but here is my line of thought: The name of the game is grinding out advantage. If you have advantage, but you have no cards to press or close the deal, the game becomes about:

 

(1) Can the player who's down draw their outs? (BLS, snatch, ring) Perhaps without exarion they have too much time. For example in a given game state a losing player has say 2 of 20 outs left in deck. In Exarion Goats they have 3 turns to draw them, but in Exarionless Goats they might have 8 turns to draw them.

 

(2) Who is going to deck out first? If you cannot deal lethal damage, you cannot win, no matter how far "ahead" you are. This has happened to me a few times particularly when my BLS hits the GY via merchant, morphing jar, or duo. I find this very frustrating.

 

Perhaps this is more of an argument for needing a monster like Exarion in your deck, but it turns out no monster can press more reliably in a simplified game state except probably Airknight. Maybe I should be packing a tech Stealth Bird.

 

The fact that Exarion easily allows you to convert your advantage into damage and hence a win condition is part of the problem. In the early game, whoever has the most advantage is primarily as result of who opened better. Whether we're talking about some combination of trinity+faith or dekoichi+tsukuyomi+backrow or getting value with breaker or sinister or graceful pitching airknight + premature burial. If you don't give people enough time to come back then the game just has higher variance. Like I said earlier, my match with Perovic is a perfect example of this. With Exarion gone, I can be down in advantage, wall with Goats, and make a comeback. If your opponent has advantage and is able to push you down into the 4000-5000 range in the first few turns, a lot more things have to go right for you in order to win the game.

 

Honestly, the decks that you in particular have built for non-Exarion goats are very passive, which is why you're losing games where you're ahead in advantage, and I feel like this has tainted your perspective. Your entire deck is flip effects and with no ways for pressing for damage, so it's no wonder that you have a hard time closing out the game. Part of the deck building skill in non-Exarion goats is figuring out what kind of monsters your want to fill your empty slots:

1. You can play either a purely aggressive monster like Blade Knight or Asura Priest

2. You can play a passive monster like Dekoichi or Big Shield

3. You can play a flex monster like D.D. Assailant or Skilled White Magician

 

Figuring out which one you want depends on a lot of different factors. Exarion doesn't force you make that choice. As a flex monster, the card is better than the best aggro options in the format as well the best passive options in the format.

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+ACP+    33886

 

Without them the game might drag a bit too much

 
Idk about you but I don't see how having a longer slower game can really be a bad thing.  Games dragging on is something to love about goats, more turns more interaction more decision, not something to say "oh okay that's enough, too many decision trees no thanks no more." 
 
 
Regardless yea, for all the people crossing themselves and crying out cyber dragon is the enemy, it changed the attack stat tiers and ruined Yugioh, the interaction between goats and Cyber Dragon seems pretty fucking phenomenal and would make an unbelievable format, the only real issue I've ever seen raised to dispute Cyber Dragon having a positive impact on a format is limiter removal, which is a completely separate card anyway.  
 
Kris is right though, historical accuracy isn't really needed.  Personally I'd rather play a custom designed format that feel the need to cleave to reality because "that's how it was back than."
 

Custom format for goats sounds pretty disgusting unless by custom you literally just mean banning Deliquent Duo in which case I 100% support this cause.


If you take Duo away, the problem is that means there's 1 less card making Magician of Faith good all of a sudden. The trinity's role is to be power cards and targets for MoF, even though they lead to pretty unreal one sidedness at times, they're an integral part of the Magician of Faith equation itself.

 

There is a such thing as a game that's too slow. If half of our games were ending in deckout, that would be too slow. However, at this point I have played hundreds of games and only had one end in deckout (which could've been avoided had the player played tighter).

 

Removing Duo from the format turns Faith from a 9/10 card into a 8.9/10 card. My best argument for keeping Duo in the format would be that it's actually the worst of the Trinity. Unlike Pot, it can go 1-for-1. Graceful can also go 1-for-1, but Graceful can also set up some ridiculous plays with Premature Burial and/or BLS. However, Duo has a luck factor that the other trinity don't have as much. When you're going 2nd and your opponent first turn Dou's you and hits your Pot of Greed, you want to slam your head into a wall. It's a lot more tilting than the rest of the trinity.

 

I think it would be interesting to pull a Konami and do a power-level errata that would be something like the following.

 

Delinquent Duo

Normal Spell

This card cannot be activated on the first turn of the game. Pay 1000 Life Points. Your opponent randomly selects and discards 1 card from his/her hand, and then, if he/she has at least 3 cards in hand, selects and discards another card from his/her hand.

 

Removes a lot of the variance and allows people to better play around it. Dust Tornado to avoid the second discard on it would be very satisfying.

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I can't believe I just read someone trying to justify Duo's existence by stating that it makes Magician of Faith a better card

 

If the entirety of the trinity was banned I'd still play Magician of Faith, have you read the fucking card? 

 

I wouldn't call Duo something that should be knee jerk banned, unlike dustshoot.  If we're going to be explicitly making a completely unhistorical custom banlist shoot will be the first card to go without a doubt.  

 

I'm just saying, the interaction between the trinity and MoF is the entire point of the trinity. Duo could probably go but auto banning duo/pot/graceful because "any 1 of power card that gives you a +1 for nothing is bad," isn't smart at all.  And we'd have to think pretty hard about banning Duo in any case.  

 

Dustshoot is just a terrible baddy bad card in goat format. I've had the card activated dozens of times against me, and never felt like I cared. I'm always in favor is leaving bad cards legal. Not to mention the fact that it's a legitimate sideboard card against some of the OTK decks. Stein being an example.

 

Graceful Charity is the only trinity that I strongly feel should be legal, as it's the one that requires the most thought behind it.

 

On another note, though, the problem with custom formats in general is that it's so hard to get people to agree on anything. Like personally, I would want to remove BLS from goat format, since it's the card that can most easily completely turn a game around. Also, I think it would be interesting to see a format where people didn't feel like every monster in their deck had to be chaos-typed. But here's the thing, that's just my opinion man. I'm sure there are plenty of people who could make great arguments for why BLS makes goat format better, and I would be hard-pressed to say that their wrong. Unless you set up some kind of "goat back room" (if you pardon the smash reference) it would be very difficult to actually make a custom format that people would feel compelled to want to play.

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+ACP+    33886

Kris' point was that the upside of playing with Exarion is making the format is a more concentrated format, not having a beater that closes out games.  There's fewer situational cards like Blade, Asura etc that you can't get a read on but turn the duel around on their own because they happen to counter your play completely in a certain situation.  

 

His argument is that if you're playing Exarion, you at least know the format's resolving around Exarion so you can predict what's coming and play around it, more so than the Asura priest out of nowhere.  But then, since Exarion's piercing it warps the format away from Scapegoat.  

 

You can also have a format concentrated around 1 specific non-piercing beater, Cyber Dragon, and I think that's probably a lot better than Exarion or pre-Exarion goats.  

 

 

But yeah if not being able to close out duels when you're 2-3 cards ahead and have tempo infuriates you, then it's hilarious that you've been behind goat format of all things.  I'm pretty sure of all the formats between April 05 and The Shining Darkness, Goat Format is the format with the most options for escape, not the least.  It's the format where microcosmal advantage is the least relevant, and extending in order to tempo someone out for the win is punished the most.  You should probably have devoted those years of your life towards advocating some other past format.  

That would be true except for the fact that:

1. If you've ever got your shit wrecked by a Blade Knight or Asura Priest, then you just got very unlucky or you managed to construct your deck exceptionally poorly. For the people who are currently warring in dgz's non-Exarion goats, does anyone have any Blade Knight or Asura Priest horror stories that they want to bring up? Blade Knight is definitely the more common of the two, and overall it's been pretty balanced.

2. Knowing that everyone is jamming multiple Exarions doesn't help when there's jack shit you can do about it.

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There's already enough options for degenerate decks in goats that anyone actually participating in warring is sacrificing their war record in the name of actual fun by not rotating through Burn/DMOC launch/other vs unprepared opponents.  Post-CRV doesn't sound like it'd be very different to pre-CRV realistically.  

 

With warring being nothing like the demands of going x-1 and topping a swiss tournament, the fact is anyone not maintaining a solid 60-70% win rate by rotating through burn/et all is basically is being nice to your opponents and not playing for the win.  That's the situation as I see it atm, and saying there's new methods post-CRV seems moot when the fact is the optimal strategy pre-CRV is already playing alt-win, not interacting g1, running the odds your opponent won't know/won't have/won't draw a sideplan g2/3 that gives him a favourable matchup vs you.   

 

If you can shift from Ben Kei to DMOC launch at the click of your fingers, ofc it's better to try and hit up your opponent with a build they haven't prepared for, score the win then shift to another deck.  

You're completely wrong. Please war so I can wreck your terrible decks. DMoC launch is unplayable trash. Your combo is a card that's limited to 1 and three other cards. If you want to protect your combo from Dust Tornado, then you need a Trunade as well. Congrats, you've basically entered into Exodia territory. Burn is playable, but definitely not 60% against the field. People show up with Mobius, Wave, and Dusts or Decrees in their side and it's pretty difficult to win. The only legitimate combo choices are basically Empty Jar and Ben Kei, and burn is semi-legit but still not something I would just pull out at random.

 

The thing is that there's easily room in your side for all of the OTK decks in the field, which is really all that you should be siding for anyways.

 

The fact that you're trying to argue that combo/burn is better in a warring environment that a tournament environment is laughable. If deck A is more likely to win than deck B, it doesn't matter whether it's at a tournament or a war. The goal is always to play the deck with the highest EV.

 

Like tbh there are so many flaws in this post that I'm just going to move on to the other 10 posts that I need to respond to.

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Here are a list of cards that I have observed to be effective in your average Exarion-less goat deck that I would argue are almost entirely unplayable in the world of Exarion Universe:
- Blade Knight
- Asura Priest
- D.D. Assailant
- Mystic Tomato
- Big Shield Gardna
- Apprentice Magician
- Skilled White Magician
- Dekoichi, the Battlechanted Locomotive
- Spirit Reaper
- Kycoo the Ghost Destroyer
It is also debatable whether D.D. Warrior Lady is playable in a format with Exarion Universe. Personally, I still play it, but the community seems to mostly disagree with my assessment. If you want, you can add that to the list too.


While Exarion does impact the playability of some of those cards I think the reality is that over 10 years of playing the format with the last 3 seeing a ton of people play the format has simply shifted and people have gotten better and have moved away from what is basically a list of mediocre cards.

In the past 3 years that Thunder Dragon deck became a thing, double Airknight becoming the norm even with Exarion around, and Merchant and Dust Tornado taking off in popularity. While compared to the 2005 lists nobody is running a ton of cards that were popular back then.

Charlotte main deck numbers:
Jinzo: 5
Bottomless Trap Hole: 6
Lightning Vortex: 5
Creature Swap: 5
Smashing Ground: 5
Swords of Revealing Light: 5
Dust Tornado: 6
Airknight Parshath: 8
Dekoichi: 0

Nats main deck numbers:
Jinzo: 8
Bottomless Trap Hole: 6
Lightning Vortex: 6
Creature Swap: 3
Smashing Ground: 4
Swords of Revealing Light: 7
Dust Tornado: 3
Airknight Parshath: 8
Dekoichi: 0

Seattle main deck numbers:
Jinzo: 4
Bottomless Trap Hole: 0
Lightning Vortex: 7
Creature Swap: 1
Smashing Ground: 4
Swords of Revealing Light: 6
Dust Tornado: 11
Airknight Parshath: 11
Dekoichi: 0

Indianapolis main deck numbers:
Jinzo: 4
Bottomless Trap Hole: 2
Lightning Vortex: 5
Creature Swap: 1
Smashing Ground: 0
Swords of Revealing Light: 8
Dust Tornado: 3
Airknight Parshath: 9
Dekoichi: 0

Vortex, Swords, and Jinzo were all super popular and now I very rarely see Jinzo on DN and never see Vortex or Swords used even though I do see Dekoichi very often.

 

 

 

yes, mediocre because exarion exists. what exactly is the point of the above post


Mediocre because they're mediocre.

The point is over the last 10 years of playing the format Swords, Lightning Vortex, and Jinzo went from borderline staples to seeing no use and I'm pretty sure that everyone getting better and the format evolving is the reason for that shift in card use, not Exarion.

Exarion is probably causing Asura Priest, Skilled White Magician, Spirit Reaper, and maybe Dekoichi to see less play (although I'd say double Tsuku is what's really holding back Asura and I see Dekoichi fairly often). I wouldn't expect any of the other cards listed to suddenly rise in popularity if we got rid of Exarion because much like Lightning Vortex and Swords of Revealing Light they haven't held up very well.

 

While you are right that goats has evolved a lot over 10 years, and yes, cards like Bottomless Trap Hole example are absolute trash, I don't think that changes any of what I'm saying. For example, I can tell you from a month of warring Exarion-less goats that Blade Knight is both good and popular. I'd say anywhere from a third to a half of decks are maindecking one. To some extent it depends on the groupthink of that particular team.

 

Dekoichi is a perfect example of the type of card that has florished in Exarion-less goats and almost nonexistent in Exarion goats. if you look at Perovic's list, there is not a single card that you can justify to cut for Dekoichi. It's typing and level makes it worse than Merchant, and its worse at pushing for damage than Exarion. Because of that, something like a 2/2/1 split on Exarion/Merchant/Dekoichi is very non sensible. Actually cutting them for Dekoichi would be lunacy.

 

I can say that from my observation for nearly a month of warring, these particular cards have definitely seem a rise in play as the result of Exarion exclusion:

- D.D. Assailant

- Big Shield Gardna

- Night Assailant

- Dekoichi

- Blade Knight

- Spirit Reaper

- Mystic Tomato

 

Asura Priest has seen a tiny rise in play (maybe 10% of lists play it instead of 5%) but nothing I'd consider significant. No one's been breaking out the Skilled White Magicians yet, but my point wasn't that I was necessarily guaranteeing that every single card on that list would see play. I know you're not super active on DGZ, but you should consider joining our past format warring, or at least watch a few matches. The diversity might surprise you.

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+ACP+    33886

mediocrity isn't an inherent quality in cards. the only thing that ever makes a card mediocre is another card or group of cards being better than it

Probably the most important post of the thread. I thought that things like this went without saying, but I probably should've stated it explicitly. Things are more interesting in general when players have to choose between running X card that isn't the stone nuts or Y card that also isn't the stone nuts. I often times feel like a lot of Yugioh players are lazy and don't want to sit down and have decide which card is best in a given field and would just rather play the cards that are "obviously good."

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Interesting discussion. Being an old school player myself and having played competitively in 2005, I would prefer playing without Exarion for authenticity reasons. However, I also think that authenticity should not be the main factor when playing a 10-year old format on a competitive level.

 

Exarion has, just like any other card, strenghts and weaknesses. Does it outclass other similar card choices like Blade Knight, Asura Priest, D.D. Assailant? Maybe it does, maybe not. It's not like those cards are now totally obsolete because of Exarion. They still have a niche and they provide enough reasons (being a Light, monster removal) to be played. The only cards that Exarion made obsolete were Enraged Battle Ox and Kycoo. But Exarion also opens up new doors for new cards to be discovered and for new plays to become more popular. For example, I play 2 Don Zaloog in my Warrior build precisely because of Exarion. I don't know how many times they lost a card because they attacked my set Don, then lost Exarion next turn via Smashing Ground. I think there are many ways of getting rid of it or even create advantage against it.

 

Stil, I would like to see a format without Exarion, simply because of nostalgic reasons.

Lol, good luck beating anyone with a brain with your shitty double Don Zaloog Smashing Ground deck. Piercing with Exarion into face-downs is just strictly suboptimal vs warriors since the set could be not only Don Zaloog but also DDWL/DDA. There are virtually no ways to create advantage against Exarion Universe and you clearly do not have much experience in the format. Goats today is a lot different than goats was in 2005, as l2thez pointed out.

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+Logic    2035


Interesting discussion. Being an old school player myself and having played competitively in 2005, I would prefer playing without Exarion for authenticity reasons. However, I also think that authenticity should not be the main factor when playing a 10-year old format on a competitive level.
 
Exarion has, just like any other card, strenghts and weaknesses. Does it outclass other similar card choices like Blade Knight, Asura Priest, D.D. Assailant? Maybe it does, maybe not. It's not like those cards are now totally obsolete because of Exarion. They still have a niche and they provide enough reasons (being a Light, monster removal) to be played. The only cards that Exarion made obsolete were Enraged Battle Ox and Kycoo. But Exarion also opens up new doors for new cards to be discovered and for new plays to become more popular. For example, I play 2 Don Zaloog in my Warrior build precisely because of Exarion. I don't know how many times they lost a card because they attacked my set Don, then lost Exarion next turn via Smashing Ground. I think there are many ways of getting rid of it or even create advantage against it.
 
Stil, I would like to see a format without Exarion, simply because of nostalgic reasons.

Lol, good luck beating anyone with a brain with your shitty double Don Zaloog Smashing Ground deck. Piercing with Exarion into face-downs is just strictly suboptimal vs warriors since the set could be not only Don Zaloog but also DDWL/DDA. There are virtually no ways to create advantage against Exarion Universe and you clearly do not have much experience in the format. Goats today is a lot different than goats was in 2005, as l2thez pointed out.

You bring a good point here. LJM and Gorilla are the only ways I can think to do so. LJM has no proactivy and little offensive pressure, and Gorilla has so much risk to it.

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Interesting discussion. Being an old school player myself and having played competitively in 2005, I would prefer playing without Exarion for authenticity reasons. However, I also think that authenticity should not be the main factor when playing a 10-year old format on a competitive level.

 

Exarion has, just like any other card, strenghts and weaknesses. Does it outclass other similar card choices like Blade Knight, Asura Priest, D.D. Assailant? Maybe it does, maybe not. It's not like those cards are now totally obsolete because of Exarion. They still have a niche and they provide enough reasons (being a Light, monster removal) to be played. The only cards that Exarion made obsolete were Enraged Battle Ox and Kycoo. But Exarion also opens up new doors for new cards to be discovered and for new plays to become more popular. For example, I play 2 Don Zaloog in my Warrior build precisely because of Exarion. I don't know how many times they lost a card because they attacked my set Don, then lost Exarion next turn via Smashing Ground. I think there are many ways of getting rid of it or even create advantage against it.

 

Stil, I would like to see a format without Exarion, simply because of nostalgic reasons.

Lol, good luck beating anyone with a brain with your shitty double Don Zaloog Smashing Ground deck. Piercing with Exarion into face-downs is just strictly suboptimal vs warriors since the set could be not only Don Zaloog but also DDWL/DDA. There are virtually no ways to create advantage against Exarion Universe and you clearly do not have much experience in the format. Goats today is a lot different than goats was in 2005, as l2thez pointed out.

 

 

A big reason as to why the Zoo deck is so strong is because of cards like Bazoo and Gorilla which let you punish opposing Exarions, and D.D. Monsters to prevent opposing Exarions from getting value. If you look at Zoo's monster lineup, every monster in the deck at worst trades with Exarion, and a good number of them simply run it over. The deck is built to exploit the triple Exarion lists people play, and it does it very well. I guess in a way I'm agreeing with you, making the observation that it took an entirely different deck to exploit the weaknesses in opposing Exarions, but I'd argue "virtually impossible" is a bit of an exaggeration.

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-L2theZ-    1623

I know you're not super active on DGZ, but you should consider joining our past format warring, or at least watch a few matches. The diversity might surprise you.


I posted in the free agent thread but nobody seemed interested, and I really don't have any desire to play the Edison format.

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Grimey    8196

Thank you allen for actually putting in the time to clarify why half of the opinions being posted here are clearly uneducated guesses and not actual facts.

 

I wish I had the patience to reply to every post and explain why it's not correct or less than optimal so I thank you for actually doing so; I appreciate it. 

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themadgician    99

Nicely explained, I personally agree with the argument and can see either side.  It's never good to be on the opposing side of early exarions when you are stuck with goats, but idk i just love that card soo much. 

 

I however do not understand how anyone can enjoy exarion+crv goats, that shit is a travesty. 

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+Logic    2035

 

I can't believe I just read someone trying to justify Duo's existence by stating that it makes Magician of Faith a better card

 

If the entirety of the trinity was banned I'd still play Magician of Faith, have you read the fucking card? 

 

I wouldn't call Duo something that should be knee jerk banned, unlike dustshoot.  If we're going to be explicitly making a completely unhistorical custom banlist shoot will be the first card to go without a doubt.  

 

I'm just saying, the interaction between the trinity and MoF is the entire point of the trinity. Duo could probably go but auto banning duo/pot/graceful because "any 1 of power card that gives you a +1 for nothing is bad," isn't smart at all.  And we'd have to think pretty hard about banning Duo in any case.  

 

That card has hardly ever bothered me in goat formats.

I can't believe you even want to argue Dustshoot is better than Duo. If anything, the existence of Dustshoot helps balance Sinister, due to the lack of reliable answers to it.

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+ACP+    33886

 

 

Interesting discussion. Being an old school player myself and having played competitively in 2005, I would prefer playing without Exarion for authenticity reasons. However, I also think that authenticity should not be the main factor when playing a 10-year old format on a competitive level.

 

Exarion has, just like any other card, strenghts and weaknesses. Does it outclass other similar card choices like Blade Knight, Asura Priest, D.D. Assailant? Maybe it does, maybe not. It's not like those cards are now totally obsolete because of Exarion. They still have a niche and they provide enough reasons (being a Light, monster removal) to be played. The only cards that Exarion made obsolete were Enraged Battle Ox and Kycoo. But Exarion also opens up new doors for new cards to be discovered and for new plays to become more popular. For example, I play 2 Don Zaloog in my Warrior build precisely because of Exarion. I don't know how many times they lost a card because they attacked my set Don, then lost Exarion next turn via Smashing Ground. I think there are many ways of getting rid of it or even create advantage against it.

 

Stil, I would like to see a format without Exarion, simply because of nostalgic reasons.

Lol, good luck beating anyone with a brain with your shitty double Don Zaloog Smashing Ground deck. Piercing with Exarion into face-downs is just strictly suboptimal vs warriors since the set could be not only Don Zaloog but also DDWL/DDA. There are virtually no ways to create advantage against Exarion Universe and you clearly do not have much experience in the format. Goats today is a lot different than goats was in 2005, as l2thez pointed out.

 

 

A big reason as to why the Zoo deck is so strong is because of cards like Bazoo and Gorilla which let you punish opposing Exarions, and D.D. Monsters to prevent opposing Exarions from getting value. If you look at Zoo's monster lineup, every monster in the deck at worst trades with Exarion, and a good number of them simply run it over. The deck is built to exploit the triple Exarion lists people play, and it does it very well. I guess in a way I'm agreeing with you, making the observation that it took an entirely different deck to exploit the weaknesses in opposing Exarions, but I'd argue "virtually impossible" is a bit of an exaggeration.

 

I mean, I mostly agree with what you're saying, but in a sense I'd still disagree. Exarion Universe is certainly at it's worst vs Zoo. But that's not the same as being bad against Zoo. Since Zoo plays no defensive monsters or Scapegoats, so Exarion is mostly just a 1800/1900 chaos-typed vanilla monster vs them (with a few fringe scenarios of allowing Book of Moon to trample over a Sangan or something). But that's still pretty good. If Berserk Gorilla attacks it and I don't have saku, well sucks to me I guess. Bazoo can sometimes run over Exarion, but Exarion can sometimes run over Bazoo. It's not like you have an infinitely large graveyard. Otherwise, Exarion walls every monster in your deck. That has relevance. In general I don't feel like Zoo beats Kris' deck consistently just on the notion of having less power cards and less relevant sideboard cards in the matchup. Good against Exarion? Maybe. Good against the deck? I'm more skeptical.

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petersylie    56

 

Interesting discussion. Being an old school player myself and having played competitively in 2005, I would prefer playing without Exarion for authenticity reasons. However, I also think that authenticity should not be the main factor when playing a 10-year old format on a competitive level.

 

Exarion has, just like any other card, strenghts and weaknesses. Does it outclass other similar card choices like Blade Knight, Asura Priest, D.D. Assailant? Maybe it does, maybe not. It's not like those cards are now totally obsolete because of Exarion. They still have a niche and they provide enough reasons (being a Light, monster removal) to be played. The only cards that Exarion made obsolete were Enraged Battle Ox and Kycoo. But Exarion also opens up new doors for new cards to be discovered and for new plays to become more popular. For example, I play 2 Don Zaloog in my Warrior build precisely because of Exarion. I don't know how many times they lost a card because they attacked my set Don, then lost Exarion next turn via Smashing Ground. I think there are many ways of getting rid of it or even create advantage against it.

 

Stil, I would like to see a format without Exarion, simply because of nostalgic reasons.

Lol, good luck beating anyone with a brain with your shitty double Don Zaloog Smashing Ground deck. Piercing with Exarion into face-downs is just strictly suboptimal vs warriors since the set could be not only Don Zaloog but also DDWL/DDA. There are virtually no ways to create advantage against Exarion Universe and you clearly do not have much experience in the format. Goats today is a lot different than goats was in 2005, as l2thez pointed out.

 

 

First of all, you have no idea who I am and how much experience I have in Goat Format. You say I play trash like Don Zaloog and Smashing Ground, yet when I watched your match against Perovic and you played what, Iron Blacksmith Kotetsu? Please. And the thing about Don, maybe you don't know how to play him right. You set Don first turn after you open Pot, for example. It's the surprise factor that enables you to get a +1 against most people, as you would be forced to stop a potential MoF I could have and nobody would expect a Don sitting there. And btw, now that Blade Knight you say is unplayable suddenly becomes good. Exarion is surely very versatile, but he doesn't excel at anything besides punishing Scapegoat and being an excellent wall. Other cards like Spirit Reaper, Asura Priest or Apprentice Magician, for example, have the potential to generate real card advantage, something that Exarion cannot do. Yes, they do have a smaller window in which they can operate well, but that doesn't mean that those cards are unplayable at all.

 

You see, I also play Exarion myself because of the pressure and damage he can generate. It's a very good card with great strenghts, but also weaknesses that you can exploit. What is Exarion going to do in against a deck that runs no Scapegoat and for example, 3 Gravekeeper's Spy with 2 Zaborg? I'm probably the only one who plays this, but I had this following situation so many times. They attack my F/D Spy, they lose 600 and I get a +1. Next turn sac one Spy for Zaborg, destroying a F/D MoF/Deko/Merchant/whatever, then attacking Exarion for another +1. Also, Exarion is a sitting duck against a Pyramid Turtle ramming into it, or against agressive choices like Berserk Gorilla or even something crazy like Fusilier Dragon + Skill Drain.

 

Like any card game, one needs to constantly adapt to different metagame scenarios. This is why most of the time, if you look at the top decklists from big tournaments, you will see a lot of cards that people didn't consider any good before. Max Suffridge, the guy who won the Nationals, ran 2 Spy and 1 Guard, something nobody played before. The guy who won the German Nationals ran 2 Don Zaloog and 2 Zaborg. You see, a metagame can only evolve when people are actually willing to consider their options against the most common cards in the meta. How did double Airknight and double Exarion become so popular in the first place? Because Scapegoat was everywhere and people wanted to counter them. Now that double Exarion and double Airknight are everywhere, I think it's time to start playing around them instead of complaining about them.

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