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Tom Brady

Who do you consider the top 5 players ever?

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»TS Fearless    7067

Thanks Joe. I remember being indulged in Yu-Gi-Oh trying to learn all I could every day and being blown away reading that. It made me feel sad that someone I looked up to and thought was good felt like his learning experience in the game was over and that at the end of it all felt like he needed to cheat to consistently top events.

 

I don't really know how I would rank Top 5 players because I didn't know a lot of these people, just read their feature matches and watched their videos. But I can post the Top 5 people I've worked with that influenced me the most in this game and share any of my past success with. Ordered from when I first started playing competitively until now:

 

Mitch Noggle

Chris Hentz

Dalton Bousman

Samuel Pedigo

Brady Brink

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»ACP    33417

You can say I'm wrong in saying that in absolute terms today's best are more knowledgable, but you don't know what I know or the roles would be reversed. That being the case, how can you possibly contend to know the limits of what I know? And when you consider that you said Lazaro never even said a sentence to you, I doubt you can know what he knew either. 

 

Of course Lazaro knew plenty of the same theory I wrote on this year in 2015. That's the exact reason I think today's players have more absolute knowledge. You don't have to reinvent the wheel every time someone learns a concept. There's already plenty, both from our game and Magic, written on much of that same theory. All that time and effort you save from having to figure out the concept by already having the foundation established and instead using that time and effort to build on it and create new theory is exactly why I think today's players have more absolute knowledge. 

 

I'm not saying and haven't ever said that today's players are better at figuring things out than they were back then. I'm simply saying that the theory of the past allows us to build on the things we already know and that we have more resources available (larger sample size of events to examine trends, DuelingNetwork having a much larger impact on the meta than YVD, modern technology like Skype, etc), allow todays players to be more knowledgeable. 

 

If anything, I feel like we're arguing for the same thing. I'm saying that being more knowledgeable today doesn't mean we're better players and that a distinction needs to be made if an accurate comparison is to be made. Which, I'd again like to say, I don't feel qualified to actually do. 

You're completely overstating the effects of "modern technology" though. I had a friend from locals who was rated #1 on DN throughout late 2011. Me a few other people used to give him tons of shit about it because he was fucking terrible. Your point is that, "We're more knowledgable today, but that doesnt mean we're better." My point is that you're not more knowledgable; you just think you are. After you quit yugioh, as you yourself have admitted is inevitable, I imagine some dude with a ton of tops in 2020 saying something like, "Patrick Hoban was really good for his time, but we're just more knowledgable today. Back then, there was only 1 cash tournament series instead of 4, and you couldn't even play Yugioh on the Oculus Rift. Plus Konami hadn't even printed Square monsters yet, which complicated the game beyond what it was then."

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Tom Brady    79

Would be interested in hearing your personal experiences with some of the top players Patrick. Maybe players like Corn, etc.

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TFJ    618
[Spoiler]

Ive had a good bit of personal experience with most players discussed, so maybe youll consider my unique position when forming your opinion. Unfortunately, there are some older players that I dont have any or only have minimal personal experience with and I dont have a basis with which I can form an objective opinion. These players include Theerasak Poonsombat, Dale Bellido, Fili Luna, Shane Scurry, Paul Levitin, and perhaps most regrettably, Lazaro. I just wont mention them, but Ill give my thoughts on some others.
 
Billy Brake - Billys an excellent player and honest person. I would bet everything I own that the man doesnt cheat. Hes got a great understanding of how the game works, is impeccable at reading people, and is certainly one of the greatest to ever play. Sometimes he limits himself, such as vowing not to play Rescue Rabbit when it was the best deck, because he hated the card, or reducing the consistency of his deck by playing lots of extra cards.
 
Barrett Keys - I think that actually loving the game is key in becoming good at it, and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Barrett loves Yu-Gi-Oh more than any other person Ive ever met. Hes extremely driven and passionate about the game and legitimately loves it. I remember going to lunch with him and a bunch of others before I ever topped much of anything and him talking about how he would wake up early before school to read Metagame every day. He is the most genuine player Ive ever met and deserves every bit of his recent success.
 
Sehabi Kheireddine - The first time I met Sehabi was in the 3/4th playoff of YCS Toronto 2013. I was upset after losing my otherwise unloseable game to Sorosh in time of top 4. I now had to play some Blackwing kid for the Giant Hand. Who could have guessed that that Blackwing kid would go on to be the next World Champion? I am extremely saddened by his DQ this past weekend in Columbus, as I believed and still believe that he does not cheat. I worked with him on a deck for ARGCS Chicago and he has an amazing understanding of the art of deckbuilding. I know he works really hard and plays all the time, and I dont think his success was to underhanded tactics.
 
Alpay Engin - The other high profile player to have been recently DQd. I do not believe that this DQ was the same kind of mistake that I believe Sehabis to be. I was warned by an extremely respectable and highly decorated European player that Alpay was incredibly savage over a year ago when I went to Berlin. When I think about what I know about how this game works, it makes perfect sense to me. I dont think that technical play is ever a big enough advantage to top event after event and that a deckbuilding edge is the only way to perform well consistently. If we were to assume that Alpay had perfect technical play ability, his decks have always been completely standard. That leaves us with a pretty big gap, filled in by his recent suspension, when questioning how he performs so consistently.
 
Thats all Ive got time for right now, but Ill try to post more personal experiences with top players, if thats something you guys would be interested in hearing.

[/spoiler]
Some of his feelings for you.

Unless you meant actually hear in his white man voice over Skype or something.

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+scuzzlebutt    23484

 

I think if you’re going to ask a question like who are the top five players of all time, you need to first specify on what grounds these judgments are based.

 

 

If you were to align the peaks of the best players and play out a randomly chosen format, who would be the most successful over the course of 1,000 trials? To do so would mean Lazarro might not have begun playing until years later and assumes somebody else made his innovations in his stead. I'd say also assume players would have the same age/maturity level that they did during their peak. That's how you make it fair. Patrick's mindset would be successful in any format. It would be naive to think Lazarro couldn't come back and do well if he really wanted to do so. Oh, and because we're all powerful beings capable of carrying out this experiment, we are able to ensure nobody cheats.
 
I believe you must do formats to allow competitors to display their ability to outfox one another during the varying conditions across successive events. It also requires a display of sustainability while not necessitating an enduring passion in spite of having a life outside of the game. In sports, longevity is a largely a function of physical health, determined by injuries and age. Sustainability in Yu-Gi-Oh is a product of passion, determined by the game itself, your peers/friends, and your alternatives. Most of us understand Yu-Gi-Oh within the context of life outside of the game, which makes it impossible for us to judge somebody for walking away. Rather, we measure them at their peak, where their skills and passion intersect. Sustained success across events and formats during their peak proves their ability to perform well under different conditions. To me, displaying this is all that's required to be in the conversation.
 
Given this context, I'd like to talk about myself:
 
I appreciate that my name has been mentioned a couple of times but I don't belong (did I psych you out??) because my passion began to waiver after going to Worlds, which is when my skills were really beginning to mature. I'm confident in saying that I was always a good player with excellent theory but my technical play went as my motivation did and that's why you didn't see me perform well for an extended period of time, and they were never perfected because I wasn't constantly working on them. Thank you for the kind words though. Yours especially, Urthor. That reminds me, I need to PM you about Australia. I'll probably be booking a late-November trip within the next week.

 

u were my 6 :*

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Sykotic    7973

i dont know exactly when would be a good point in time to use as reference, but the game now and the game as it was "back in the day" are 2 totally different games, in my opinion. i think this is a silly argument because it could be entirely likely that players such as Patrick would still outperform many great players of 7-10 years ago at this game as it is currently, or as it was last year, 2 yrs ago, etc. but i dont think he would consistently best them at the game those guys were playing.  i would however like to say that even when i first dueled against Patrick back in the day in an online war before he had become the player he is now or had a recognizable name, he impressed me and definitely outplayed me. i remember it specifically because he was a member of a warring team on a website that featured mostly low-level talent relative to the top tier players on duelistgroundz.

 

for example, a lot of games in more recent formats (recent to me at least, not gonna pretend i know anything at all about the gameplay during the past 1-2 years) could be easily won by having the means to summon one or more monsters with very high stats and powerful effects, and setting a couple traps or holding hand traps to back those monsters up and ensure their presence on following turns, or sometimes just summoning the monsters and hoping your opponent has no outs.

 

however, in older formats like goats for example (and i know a couple more recent formats have been like this probably), this was simply not a thing that was possible. there were not many monsters with huge attack power and powerful effects. and the ones we did have could often be easily removed from your field at a very low cost to your opponent, swinging tempo heavily in their favor and sometimes flat out losing you the game unless you played your monsters at the exact correct time.

 

after quitting for a while and returning to the game when i did, i lost a lot of games because i was too conservative with my powerful cards and it took me a little while to realize that these were misplays. i was often misplaying by not just putting all or most of my cards onto the field, because this is not how i was used to playing yugioh. this is not to say that the game was more difficult then than it is now, the mechanics are certainly far more complex these days. i don't have the means to measure such a thing. all i'm saying is that the games are different

 

overall though, i believe that all this game takes is a very deep understanding of the current format and meta, lots of time put in to experience many different situations, and then you need to couple this knowledge and practice with common sense, excellent critical thinking and problem solving skills, and i believe most importantly, the ability to focus completely on the match you are playing. anyone with the intelligence to apply these skills and the drive to succeed will reach "tier 1" in any given format, good enough to consistently outplay almost every opponent.

 

then of course there is the very very small percentage of people just born with transcendent intelligence in the required areas who i'd say can reach "tier 0" when applying these skills.

 

like in the couple of formats where i put in the time and was able to intently focus on my matches, i felt like i was capable of outplaying just about any player in the game if they weren't in that "tier 0" class, and barring cheating, could have maybe got a couple of premier event tops if i had the means to travel; but in the formats where i did not put in the necessary time and effort, i don't think i was that great at the game at all, and probably would have had no business attending premier events, although still capable of outplaying most opponents simply due to my past experience and the fact that a lot of players are not smart, or don't care enough, or just unfortunately naturally suck at the game for whatever reason.

 

idk i just rambled a lot i hope that post made some sense?? i dont think i provided any insight at all but w/e i enjoyed typing this thanks guys cool thread

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urthor, plz stfu. clearly u are just modern herp derp ygo, so kindly step away from something u clearly don't know jack about 

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I’ve had a good bit of personal experience with most players discussed, so maybe you’ll consider my unique position when forming your opinion. Unfortunately, there are some older players that I don’t have any or only have minimal personal experience with and I don’t have a basis with which I can form an objective opinion. These players include Theerasak Poonsombat, Dale Bellido, Fili Luna, Shane Scurry, Paul Levitin, and perhaps most regrettably, Lazaro. I just won’t mention them, but I’ll give my thoughts on some others.

 

Billy Brake - Billy’s an excellent player and honest person. I would bet everything I own that the man doesn’t cheat. He’s got a great understanding of how the game works, is impeccable at reading people, and is certainly one of the greatest to ever play. Sometimes he limits himself, such as vowing not to play Rescue Rabbit when it was the best deck, because he hated the card, or reducing the consistency of his deck by playing lots of extra cards.

 

Barrett Keys - I think that actually loving the game is key in becoming good at it, and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Barrett loves Yu-Gi-Oh more than any other person I’ve ever met. He’s extremely driven and passionate about the game and legitimately loves it. I remember going to lunch with him and a bunch of others before I ever topped much of anything and him talking about how he would wake up early before school to read Metagame every day. He is the most genuine player I’ve ever met and deserves every bit of his recent success.

 

Sehabi Kheireddine - The first time I met Sehabi was in the 3/4th playoff of YCS Toronto 2013. I was upset after losing my otherwise unloseable game to Sorosh in time of top 4. I now had to play some Blackwing kid for the Giant Hand. Who could have guessed that that Blackwing kid would go on to be the next World Champion? I am extremely saddened by his DQ this past weekend in Columbus, as I believed and still believe that he does not cheat. I worked with him on a deck for ARGCS Chicago and he has an amazing understanding of the art of deckbuilding. I know he works really hard and plays all the time, and I don’t think his success was to underhanded tactics.

 

Alpay Engin - The other high profile player to have been recently DQ’d. I do not believe that this DQ was the same kind of mistake that I believe Sehabi’s to be. I was warned by an extremely respectable and highly decorated European player that Alpay was incredibly savage over a year ago when I went to Berlin. When I think about what I know about how this game works, it makes perfect sense to me. I don’t think that technical play is ever a big enough advantage to top event after event and that a deckbuilding edge is the only way to perform well consistently. If we were to assume that Alpay had perfect technical play ability, his decks have always been completely standard. That leaves us with a pretty big gap, filled in by his recent suspension, when questioning how he performs so consistently.

 

That’s all I’ve got time for right now, but I’ll try to post more personal experiences with top players, if that’s something you guys would be interested in hearing.

This is a more modern list, cuz u know it took you like 100 events to get good with your grandpa/grandma paying for all your trips, mr shadowman n00b. i remember u getting stomped and being the laughing stock of ygo.  not trying to put you down or anything but i've known you since forever and the amount of time and money u spent, clearly you are top 5. but all your other are just current players playing the game that is not ygo that only required money and playing lots, no real skill tbh i read this past features, all i read was aids. 

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Lazaro, Billy Brake, Emon, Hoban, Jerry Wang

 

Sidenote: Anyone who puts Corn on their list is wrong. Terrible deck builder, went on tilt really easily, just really good at cheating.

This is a really good list except, emon lost to kulman lol.... i would def put a european up there... 

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+scuzzlebutt    23484


Ive had a good bit of personal experience with most players discussed, so maybe youll consider my unique position when forming your opinion. Unfortunately, there are some older players that I dont have any or only have minimal personal experience with and I dont have a basis with which I can form an objective opinion. These players include Theerasak Poonsombat, Dale Bellido, Fili Luna, Shane Scurry, Paul Levitin, and perhaps most regrettably, Lazaro. I just wont mention them, but Ill give my thoughts on some others.
 
Billy Brake - Billys an excellent player and honest person. I would bet everything I own that the man doesnt cheat. Hes got a great understanding of how the game works, is impeccable at reading people, and is certainly one of the greatest to ever play. Sometimes he limits himself, such as vowing not to play Rescue Rabbit when it was the best deck, because he hated the card, or reducing the consistency of his deck by playing lots of extra cards.
 
Barrett Keys - I think that actually loving the game is key in becoming good at it, and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Barrett loves Yu-Gi-Oh more than any other person Ive ever met. Hes extremely driven and passionate about the game and legitimately loves it. I remember going to lunch with him and a bunch of others before I ever topped much of anything and him talking about how he would wake up early before school to read Metagame every day. He is the most genuine player Ive ever met and deserves every bit of his recent success.
 
Sehabi Kheireddine - The first time I met Sehabi was in the 3/4th playoff of YCS Toronto 2013. I was upset after losing my otherwise unloseable game to Sorosh in time of top 4. I now had to play some Blackwing kid for the Giant Hand. Who could have guessed that that Blackwing kid would go on to be the next World Champion? I am extremely saddened by his DQ this past weekend in Columbus, as I believed and still believe that he does not cheat. I worked with him on a deck for ARGCS Chicago and he has an amazing understanding of the art of deckbuilding. I know he works really hard and plays all the time, and I dont think his success was to underhanded tactics.
 
Alpay Engin - The other high profile player to have been recently DQd. I do not believe that this DQ was the same kind of mistake that I believe Sehabis to be. I was warned by an extremely respectable and highly decorated European player that Alpay was incredibly savage over a year ago when I went to Berlin. When I think about what I know about how this game works, it makes perfect sense to me. I dont think that technical play is ever a big enough advantage to top event after event and that a deckbuilding edge is the only way to perform well consistently. If we were to assume that Alpay had perfect technical play ability, his decks have always been completely standard. That leaves us with a pretty big gap, filled in by his recent suspension, when questioning how he performs so consistently.
 
Thats all Ive got time for right now, but Ill try to post more personal experiences with top players, if thats something you guys would be interested in hearing.

This is a more modern list, cuz u know it took you like 100 events to get good with your grandpa/grandma paying for all your trips, mr shadowman n00b. i remember u getting stomped and being the laughing stock of ygo.  not trying to put you down or anything but i've known you since forever and the amount of time and money u spent, clearly you are top 5. but all your other are just current players playing the game that is not ygo that only required money and playing lots, no real skill tbh i read this past features, all i read was aids. 
yeah its all new yugiohs fault only cool kids could win in goat format but now all these gay new cards let all these faggots win tournaments come on KONAMI
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+scuzzlebutt    23484
"the game that is NOT yugioh"

child
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Ive had a good bit of personal experience with most players discussed, so maybe youll consider my unique position when forming your opinion. Unfortunately, there are some older players that I dont have any or only have minimal personal experience with and I dont have a basis with which I can form an objective opinion. These players include Theerasak Poonsombat, Dale Bellido, Fili Luna, Shane Scurry, Paul Levitin, and perhaps most regrettably, Lazaro. I just wont mention them, but Ill give my thoughts on some others.
 
Billy Brake - Billys an excellent player and honest person. I would bet everything I own that the man doesnt cheat. Hes got a great understanding of how the game works, is impeccable at reading people, and is certainly one of the greatest to ever play. Sometimes he limits himself, such as vowing not to play Rescue Rabbit when it was the best deck, because he hated the card, or reducing the consistency of his deck by playing lots of extra cards.
 
Barrett Keys - I think that actually loving the game is key in becoming good at it, and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Barrett loves Yu-Gi-Oh more than any other person Ive ever met. Hes extremely driven and passionate about the game and legitimately loves it. I remember going to lunch with him and a bunch of others before I ever topped much of anything and him talking about how he would wake up early before school to read Metagame every day. He is the most genuine player Ive ever met and deserves every bit of his recent success.
 
Sehabi Kheireddine - The first time I met Sehabi was in the 3/4th playoff of YCS Toronto 2013. I was upset after losing my otherwise unloseable game to Sorosh in time of top 4. I now had to play some Blackwing kid for the Giant Hand. Who could have guessed that that Blackwing kid would go on to be the next World Champion? I am extremely saddened by his DQ this past weekend in Columbus, as I believed and still believe that he does not cheat. I worked with him on a deck for ARGCS Chicago and he has an amazing understanding of the art of deckbuilding. I know he works really hard and plays all the time, and I dont think his success was to underhanded tactics.
 
Alpay Engin - The other high profile player to have been recently DQd. I do not believe that this DQ was the same kind of mistake that I believe Sehabis to be. I was warned by an extremely respectable and highly decorated European player that Alpay was incredibly savage over a year ago when I went to Berlin. When I think about what I know about how this game works, it makes perfect sense to me. I dont think that technical play is ever a big enough advantage to top event after event and that a deckbuilding edge is the only way to perform well consistently. If we were to assume that Alpay had perfect technical play ability, his decks have always been completely standard. That leaves us with a pretty big gap, filled in by his recent suspension, when questioning how he performs so consistently.
 
Thats all Ive got time for right now, but Ill try to post more personal experiences with top players, if thats something you guys would be interested in hearing.

This is a more modern list, cuz u know it took you like 100 events to get good with your grandpa/grandma paying for all your trips, mr shadowman n00b. i remember u getting stomped and being the laughing stock of ygo.  not trying to put you down or anything but i've known you since forever and the amount of time and money u spent, clearly you are top 5. but all your other are just current players playing the game that is not ygo that only required money and playing lots, no real skill tbh i read this past features, all i read was aids. 
yeah its all new yugiohs fault only cool kids could win in goat format but now all these gay new cards let all these faggots win tournaments come on KONAMI

 

wow froggy u got necro grats, oh btw, teledad, plant format(fun as hell the mirror was super fun except playing against karakuri with natbeast cuz u had to play prison -.-) , hell even rescue cat format was still consider ygo, everything after lord of tachyon is aids..... if you cant see this then your stuck on this shitty ass game. i read the winner of columbus report... 

 

his report was more or less something like this 

 

game 1 i djinn lock, he didn't have out

game 2 i had out, and then i otk

game 3 i djinnlock he didn't have out 

 

wtf is this shit? dont get me wrong, i still play and i know what necroz is and shadoll etc.... but to read hoban's post just grind my gear. of course he can't say anything about the top players of the past cuz he was a full scrub aka the krusty krab. "please erase the  photo"... 

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jhadd1996    247

 

 

 

Ive had a good bit of personal experience with most players discussed, so maybe youll consider my unique position when forming your opinion. Unfortunately, there are some older players that I dont have any or only have minimal personal experience with and I dont have a basis with which I can form an objective opinion. These players include Theerasak Poonsombat, Dale Bellido, Fili Luna, Shane Scurry, Paul Levitin, and perhaps most regrettably, Lazaro. I just wont mention them, but Ill give my thoughts on some others.
 
Billy Brake - Billys an excellent player and honest person. I would bet everything I own that the man doesnt cheat. Hes got a great understanding of how the game works, is impeccable at reading people, and is certainly one of the greatest to ever play. Sometimes he limits himself, such as vowing not to play Rescue Rabbit when it was the best deck, because he hated the card, or reducing the consistency of his deck by playing lots of extra cards.
 
Barrett Keys - I think that actually loving the game is key in becoming good at it, and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Barrett loves Yu-Gi-Oh more than any other person Ive ever met. Hes extremely driven and passionate about the game and legitimately loves it. I remember going to lunch with him and a bunch of others before I ever topped much of anything and him talking about how he would wake up early before school to read Metagame every day. He is the most genuine player Ive ever met and deserves every bit of his recent success.
 
Sehabi Kheireddine - The first time I met Sehabi was in the 3/4th playoff of YCS Toronto 2013. I was upset after losing my otherwise unloseable game to Sorosh in time of top 4. I now had to play some Blackwing kid for the Giant Hand. Who could have guessed that that Blackwing kid would go on to be the next World Champion? I am extremely saddened by his DQ this past weekend in Columbus, as I believed and still believe that he does not cheat. I worked with him on a deck for ARGCS Chicago and he has an amazing understanding of the art of deckbuilding. I know he works really hard and plays all the time, and I dont think his success was to underhanded tactics.
 
Alpay Engin - The other high profile player to have been recently DQd. I do not believe that this DQ was the same kind of mistake that I believe Sehabis to be. I was warned by an extremely respectable and highly decorated European player that Alpay was incredibly savage over a year ago when I went to Berlin. When I think about what I know about how this game works, it makes perfect sense to me. I dont think that technical play is ever a big enough advantage to top event after event and that a deckbuilding edge is the only way to perform well consistently. If we were to assume that Alpay had perfect technical play ability, his decks have always been completely standard. That leaves us with a pretty big gap, filled in by his recent suspension, when questioning how he performs so consistently.
 
Thats all Ive got time for right now, but Ill try to post more personal experiences with top players, if thats something you guys would be interested in hearing.

This is a more modern list, cuz u know it took you like 100 events to get good with your grandpa/grandma paying for all your trips, mr shadowman n00b. i remember u getting stomped and being the laughing stock of ygo.  not trying to put you down or anything but i've known you since forever and the amount of time and money u spent, clearly you are top 5. but all your other are just current players playing the game that is not ygo that only required money and playing lots, no real skill tbh i read this past features, all i read was aids. 
yeah its all new yugiohs fault only cool kids could win in goat format but now all these gay new cards let all these faggots win tournaments come on KONAMI

 

wow froggy u got necro grats, oh btw, teledad, plant format(fun as hell the mirror was super fun except playing against karakuri with natbeast cuz u had to play prison -.-) , hell even rescue cat format was still consider ygo, everything after lord of tachyon is aids..... if you cant see this then your stuck on this shitty ass game. i read the winner of columbus report... 

 

his report was more or less something like this 

 

game 1 i djinn lock, he didn't have out

game 2 i had out, and then i otk

game 3 i djinnlock he didn't have out 

 

wtf is this shit? dont get me wrong, i still play and i know what necroz is and shadoll etc.... but to read hoban's post just grind my gear. of course he can't say anything about the top players of the past cuz he was a full scrub aka the krusty krab. "please erase the  photo"... 

 

Are you trolling?

I couldn't give two fucks if you've been here since 2005, you're an actual fucking idiot. This is coming from someone that all they have to say about the format is "hurr durr Djinn lock." You wouldn't even know when it's right to Djinn lock you fucking sped.

You also said some retarded thing about this game taking no skill or something like that. People like Patrick, Billy, and Sehabi are evidence alone that this game is in fact pretty deep.

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POLLUTEDxDELTA    1889

I don't know about that. Patrick, Billy, Sehabi, etc are all good players (don't really know about Sehabi tbh), but they are also among the few who actually put significant amounts of time and effort into Yugioh. Like, they actually understand how the game works and do proper play testing, as opposed to the idiots who jam 1,000 DN matches and claim they are hella good. 

 

A big reason why older pros are more respected than the new generation of pros is because SJCs were top 8 and regionals were top 4. You had to go X-1 in a field of players who legitimately cared about the game (insert Allen's post from earlier in the thread). Now players can limp in at X-2-1 or whatever and get a "top" at top 32, or X-3 regionals for top 48, or top 64 for Nationals. Players in this generation don't have to be good, just good enough. 

 

So basically, X-1 and top 8 in a very difficult field, or X-2 and top 32 in a field of mostly idiots. Yugioh may be deeper than we all think, with lots of unexplored theory or whatever, but there aren't enough reasons for non-Patrick players to improve themselves. They just want their top 32 play mat and youtube deck profile. I can't count how many times I've read that a player made top 16, never drafted Battle Pack, and just bend over and let people like Patrick get free wins off them. Is it really that prestigious to beat that level of players?

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+scuzzlebutt    23484
the same is true in the long run as any competitive game develops

again, different skillsets, not necessarily harder or easier ones

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Joe.    4932

I would rather play 10 "pros" than 10 "randoms" at an event. I cannot tell you how many times I've lost because my opponent didn't know what they were doing.

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»Turkey    1515

I would rather play 10 "pros" than 10 "randoms" at an event. I cannot tell you how many times I've lost because my opponent didn't know what they were doing.

People make statements like this all the time, but I'm sorry, it's just blatantly wrong. If you want to maximize your win %, it's clearly higher EV to play against randoms than pros. Sure, sometimes randoms will make a play that makes no sense and you'll lose because of it, but in the long run, their bad plays will increase your chance of winning -- that's literally what defines a bad play. It's your job to exploit your opponent's mistakes in order to increase your own chance of winning the game. If you can't adjust to a weak opponent who makes lots of mistakes, that's a flaw in your own game. 

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Joe.    4932

 

I would rather play 10 "pros" than 10 "randoms" at an event. I cannot tell you how many times I've lost because my opponent didn't know what they were doing.

People make statements like this all the time, but I'm sorry, it's just blatantly wrong. If you want to maximize your win %, it's clearly higher EV to play against randoms than pros. Sure, sometimes randoms will make a play that makes no sense and you'll lose because of it, but in the long run, their bad plays will increase your chance of winning -- that's literally what defines a bad play. It's your job to exploit your opponent's mistakes in order to increase your own chance of winning the game. If you can't adjust to a weak opponent who makes lots of mistakes, that's a flaw in your own game. 

 

 

Umm, I am still going to hold true to my point. I would much rather play against 10 people who are know what they are doing as opposed to see my Mythic Tomato get hit by Dimensional Prison when I am running Inzektors... For what it is worth, I am 7-0 in YCS/Nats matches vs. the "10 top club" and I think the fact that I can expect strong play is a contributing factor.

 

And trust me, I've adjusted on the fly plenty of times. There are just some situations where the lack of logic is so farfetched you cannot. You can safely assume so much more from competent players.

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»Turkey    1515

 

 

I would rather play 10 "pros" than 10 "randoms" at an event. I cannot tell you how many times I've lost because my opponent didn't know what they were doing.

People make statements like this all the time, but I'm sorry, it's just blatantly wrong. If you want to maximize your win %, it's clearly higher EV to play against randoms than pros. Sure, sometimes randoms will make a play that makes no sense and you'll lose because of it, but in the long run, their bad plays will increase your chance of winning -- that's literally what defines a bad play. It's your job to exploit your opponent's mistakes in order to increase your own chance of winning the game. If you can't adjust to a weak opponent who makes lots of mistakes, that's a flaw in your own game. 

 

 

Umm, I am still going to hold true to my point. I would much rather play against 10 people who are know what they are doing as opposed to see my Mythic Tomato get hit by Dimensional Prison when I am running Inzektors... For what it is worth, I am 7-0 in YCS/Nats matches vs. the "10 top club" and I think the fact that I can expect strong play is a contributing factor.

 

And trust me, I've adjusted on the fly plenty of times. There are just some situations where the lack of logic is so farfetched you cannot. You can safely assume so much more more competent players.

 

 It's easy to remember the times you get punished because your opponent makes an awful play when you assumed they would do something else, but the much more likely situation is that your opponent makes an awful play and gets punished because, well, the play was awful. If your opponent is playing so poorly that you cannot possibly follow their logic, you benefit from them making these mistakes in the long run. 

 

If you played 1,000 matches against complete randoms and 1,000 matches against fellow pros, which group would you have a higher win % against? If your answer is pros, you're delusional. 

But, seeing as how it's not likely I sway your opinion, we can just agree to disagree. 

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M.C.B.    172

Why does it always come down to comparing players of old to todays players?

I am sure ex top players would adjust to todays yugioh and LOVE it, just like mor erecent top players would adjust to goats if nothing else exsisted. Over and over again retired players (that were never really good and shouldn't have an opinion in the matter) comment how todays meta is not skillfull. What are you even talking about?! Dragon mirrors were not skilled? Rabbit format was not perfect for deckbuilding innovation? Oh please, some of the mentioned players went to extreme lengths to reach the top. I wonder where and why we stopped hearing about them. I guess that has a lot to do with what Sam Pedigo mentioned, passion and drive. Someone attacked Hoban about attending lots of events. Well...as far as I know all the players of the old (oh I tracked them on Metagame regularly) were older than Hoban when they played and had events to travel to. They maybe just decided not to. Which makes him a greater player from that perspective too. He wants to play. He wants to win.

If anyone asked me it is not all about results. That is why some of the names that only topped a vouple oftimes were mentioned. Because you (not only me) value players for good sportsmanship, deckbuilding or sheer love for the game. Are poker hall offame inductees players with highest earnings only? No they are not. To get back to Patrick being attacked for playing lots of events...He topped lots too. I think his top/attendance percentage is still higher than anyone elses. I may be wrong but the way I see it from my computer he tops most of the tournaments he attends. Please don't think I am taking his side or the side of the new age players. I have been playing (not competitively though) for 11 years, keeping up with metagame.com and now vast news feed on facebook from all over the world. I love some of the names from the past. I couldn't wait to see what they brought to the table every tournament. I am sorry they went on to do other things. Great memories.

But they have made their choices. They maybe didn't realize there is going to be a dispute over it one day, but I am sure they ould leav ethe game anyway because they performed great in their time, then gave place to others. Not to mntion Yugioh was at a low a little while when onami was just taking over. I guess we could have that as a breaking point too. My post lost it's point if there ever was one when I started typing. Don't compare players of old and new. Make 2 lists. Or make a list of most memorable players. Not best players.

 

My most memorable 5 would be 

 

Yannick Dubeau a Canadian using Cyberdarks befor it was cool and topping with them, almost making it next SJC too

Theeresak Poonsumbat for consistency in topping and having the nickname T which does make him memorable

Robert Boyiajian for being on top when I started going to tournaments and paying even more attention to meta, my friends played plants at the time and adored him even more

Billy Brake, we met in England and I put him on the list not only for his great results but for being the first "giant from the screen" I met in person to see he is pretty ordinary

Patrick Hoban, his theory makes so much sense that even if he never topped a single event he would have my respect just for the articles, he is not without flaws though, I played him past weekend and despite my victory this was not one of my favourite games I played

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